What not to do when the police knock?

[tvc184]

52 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

You've explained in detail that the law allows this. It's still not right. The man clearly made a bad decision. But this would not be a conversation now, if not for a obvious mistake by the local police.

You avoided my question about the flashing lights? That would've been a very obvious signal that police were in the area before the man opened the door with gun in hand. Just saying police once after the initial knock shouldn't be enough.

What mistake for the police make? Knocking on a door?

That is a very good question about lights. Sorry I missed it. 

 The flashing emergency lights is a television or movie deal. It isn’t usually based on reality.

Emergency lighting is to move traffic out of the way or to block a roadway for an emergency. It is not intended to, nor legally demanded to notify everybody in the neighborhood that the police are discussing something of a private matter with a citizen or to notify potential suspects that the police are arriving and to prepare. It is often seen as a violation of officer safety in many cases. I believe in the last week two police officers were killed responding to family violence situations.

In your previous comment, you mentioned the volatile situations in a domestic disturbance and using lights. That very volatile situation that you are asking about is the reason NOT to use lights. From a police perspective, using lights in some situations is asking for trouble and being killed. We don’t use it anymore but when I first started we had a switch that we  could flip that would kill (conveniently called the kill switch) all of the lights on our patrol vehicle. Brake lights, tail lights, turn signals or whatever, were disable to at least try to keep us from being seen.

So while from your point of view, it might be great to use a bunch of pretty flashy lights that can be seen from over a mile away, an officer might see as asking for the death sentence. Officers now are at times lazy but I normally didn’t park within a block of a family disturbance and if possible, not even on the same street. I would park on scene around the corner and then walk up cautiously.

Because of this, state law specifically allows the police to operate an emergency vehicle in an emergency without using lights or siren, whereas for EMS or the fire department, it is mandatory.

Sec. 546.004. EXCEPTIONS TO SIGNAL REQUIREMENT.

(b) An authorized emergency vehicle that is operated as a police vehicle is not required to be equipped with or display a red light visible from the front of the vehicle.

(c) A police officer may operate an authorized emergency vehicle for a law enforcement purpose without using the audible or visual signals required by Section 546.003 if the officer is:

(1) responding to an emergency call or pursuing a suspected violator of the law with probable cause to believe that:

(A) knowledge of the presence of the officer will cause the suspect to:

(i) destroy or lose evidence of a suspected felony;

(ii) end a suspected continuing felony before the officer has obtained sufficient evidence to establish grounds for arrest; or

(iii) evade apprehension or identification of the suspect or the suspect's vehicle; or

(B) because of traffic conditions on a multilaned roadway, vehicles moving in response to the audible or visual signals may:

(i) increase the potential for a collision; or

(ii) unreasonably extend the duration of the pursuit; or

(2) complying with a written regulation relating to the use of audible or visible signals adopted by the local government that employs the officer or by the department.

For safety and apprehension reasons that other emergency services don’t face, the police are exempt from the pretty flashy lights and making noise.

This situation was obviously terrible. Let’s face it though, who reasonably walks out of their house and start pointing guns without knowing who is out there. Your own comment was that the guy “clearly made a bad decision”.

I agree.

Out of literally millions of police calls each week, how many had innocent people walk outside with a gun in hand pointing toward officers? This was an anomaly that will likely never be answered. Why didn’t he peak outside first through a window or the door peephole? Why didn’t he ask who it was at the door? Why didn’t he open the door slightly to look outside with gun in hand but unseen?

Again, we will likely never know why he pushed open the door and immediately pointed a gun. 

[WOSdrummer99]

1 hour ago, tvc184 said:

What mistake for the police make? Knocking on a door?

Yes at the wrong location. If the mistake wasn't made. Maybe we'd be taking about your scenario of a cop killed by the actual person causing the original disturbance.

[LumRaiderFan]

7 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Yes at the wrong location. If the mistake wasn't made. Maybe we'd be taking about your scenario of a cop killed by the actual person causing the original disturbance.

I would imagine with the tens of thousands of callouts every day, there are probably hundreds of mistakes made like this, either by the officers or by the dispatchers, after all, neither are perfect.  You never hear about it unless in a case like this, they guy responded like a maniac and came out pointing a pistol at the cops and gave them no choice.  Folks show up at the wrong address all them time, this is not how to answer the door.  I actually think there will be more to the story.

[bullets13]

On 4/18/2023 at 4:33 AM, Separation Scientist said:

Ah, the straw man argument. UPS would not be packing heat, and then blow me away standing in my own home. 

You want to talk law? Earlier you said  Whose property it is on has no bearing"  Really? Better look up "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" laws. Whose property it is absolutely, positively does matter. I would say you need to consult a good lawyer and be enlightened. 

I assure you TVC has forgotten more about the penal code than most lawyers will ever learn.

[SmashMouth]

16 hours ago, tvc184 said:

I have yet to see any reasonable explanation from anybody as to why misreading an address allows a person to threaten you with a firearm. As LR posted the article of a mistaken address and some guy thought that was justification to come out shooting.

Where are y’all coming up with these nonsensical theories?

This is not difficult. Tragic, yes, but not difficult.

The police were called to a family disturbance. They walked across the street to the wrong house. They knocked on the door and announced police. Somebody inside the house heard the knocking and the man walked out without knowing anything, except that was a knock and immediately pointed gun at whoever was standing on his property.

The (1) officers were not violating any law, (2) they had the same authority on stand your ground and (3) they had a reasonable belief that their lives were in danger. Can anyone point to where any of that is incorrect? 

And that's that... Imo, there is too much emotion on top of dislike for "the man" being interjected into the conversation. I will leave it at this: Put yourself in that officer's shoes. Really think about it. Now... what would you really do?

[bullets13]

14 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

You've explained in detail that the law allows this. It's still not right. The man clearly made a bad decision. But this would not be a conversation now, if not for a obvious mistake by the local police.

You avoided my question about the flashing lights? That would've been a very obvious signal that police were in the area before the man opened the door with gun in hand. Just saying police once after the initial knock shouldn't be enough.

If a person is texting and driving and rearends someone, and that person gets out of a car and shoots them dead, it's clearly the texter's fault, right?  Had they not made a silly mistake the guy would've never gotten out and shot them.  

[bullets13]

6 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

I would imagine with the tens of thousands of callouts every day, there are probably hundreds of mistakes made like this, either by the officers or by the dispatchers, after all, neither are perfect.  You never hear about it unless in a case like this, they guy responded like a maniac and came out pointing a pistol at the cops and gave them no choice.  Folks show up at the wrong address all them time, this is not how to answer the door.  I actually think there will be more to the story.

And how many times in the course of a day do police knock on doors down the streets from crimes looking for witnesses?  Watch an episode of the First 48.  Dude gets popped at the gas station on the corner, or in the apartment complex, and the police mobilize and start knocking on doors.  They might knock on 50-100 doors, and it might be 2AM.  Surprisingly enough, none of them ever get shot.

[bullets13]

11 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Yes at the wrong location. If the mistake wasn't made. Maybe we'd be taking about your scenario of a cop killed by the actual person causing the original disturbance.

Last comment here, because you're clearly hellbent on blaming the police for this guy's moronic response to a knock on the door.  Have you ever knocked on the wrong door?  Have you ever had someone knock on your door and be at the wrong house?  Even the police are allowed to accidentally knock on the wrong door.  They knock on hundreds of thousands of doors in this country a day (maybe millions), some of which will undoubtedly be the wrong address, and don't have a single innocent person come out in a shooter's stance forcing the police to defend themself.  

[LumRaiderFan]

1 hour ago, bullets13 said:

I assure you TVC has forgotten more about the penal code than most lawyers will ever learn.

No doubt

[LumRaiderFan]

1 hour ago, SmashMouth said:

And that's that... Imo, there is too much emotion on top of dislike for "the man" being interjected into the conversation. I will leave it at this: Put yourself in that officer's shoes. Really think about it. Now... what would you really do?

This

[SmashMouth]

15 hours ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

You've explained in detail that the law allows this. It's still not right. The man clearly made a bad decision. But this would not be a conversation now, if not for a obvious mistake by the local police.

You avoided my question about the flashing lights? That would've been a very obvious signal that police were in the area before the man opened the door with gun in hand. Just saying police once after the initial knock shouldn't be enough.

I will say to your point, none of this would be an issue had the correct address been used. I’m interested to know how that mistake was made. 

[WOSdrummer99]

8 hours ago, LumRaiderFan said:

Folks show up at the wrong address all them time, this is not how to answer the door.  I actually think there will be more to the story.

I agree

[WOSdrummer99]

4 hours ago, SmashMouth said:

Put yourself in that officer's shoes. Really think about it. Now... what would you really do?

If I'm getting out the vehicle a block away, as suggested for this type of call. I'm gonna make sure I know where I'm going. Hopefully I'd have access to Google maps satellite photo and street view to be familiar with the area. And show a direct view of the location. You know, technology? Body cams are common now. That change had to come from somewhere.

Now, when I get to the location, or in route. I'm in full police mode. That means looking for an ambush too. Which means the business end of a deadly weapon would most likely be pointed somewhere... ready. Any decision to pull the trigger and possibly take another's life, is mine to make. And to also accept any possible outcome from that life changing event.

Respect for firearms and good decision making skills are not universal.

[WOSdrummer99]

4 hours ago, bullets13 said:

Had they not made a silly mistake the guy would've never gotten out and shot them.  

In that case, it is logical to assume if the victim would have not made a mistake, they would've made it home for dinner. Arrive alive is what I always say.

[WOSdrummer99]

4 hours ago, bullets13 said:

Last comment here, because you're clearly hellbent on blaming the police for this guy's moronic response to a knock on the door.  Have you ever knocked on the wrong door?  Have you ever had someone knock on your door and be at the wrong house? 

We agree that his response was foolish.

I have knocked on the wrong door, at the wrong time, and been greated in a similar fashion. But that's a different story.

I have also had someone wrongly knock on my door. Just a week a ago, some teenagers were knocking and running. Scared the neighbors so much they called me to check things out. When it happened here a week later I jumped up and ran out just in time to see them rounding the corner. Realizing it was just some dumb kids. I let it go. But then later thought, what if they do that to the wrong old man. People are crazy, God is great, you know the rest. So I called the PD and asked them to look around. Hopefully they can educate these youngsters about the dangers of knocking on the wrong door.

Oh and I've had the PD knock before too. Once even for the wrong person at the wrong house. Good thing they knocked. I would've had to replace my door at my own expense.

 

[tvc184]

29 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

If I'm getting out the vehicle a block away, as suggested for this type of call. I'm gonna make sure I know where I'm going. Hopefully I'd have access to Google maps satellite photo and street view to be familiar with the area. And show a direct view of the location. You know, technology? Body cams are common now. That change had to come from somewhere.

Now, when I get to the location, or in route. I'm in full police mode. That means looking for an ambush too. Which means the business end of a deadly weapon would most likely be pointed somewhere... ready. Any decision to pull the trigger and possibly take another's life, is mine to make. And to also accept any possible outcome from that life changing event.

Respect for firearms and good decision making skills are not universal.

You continue with the technology nonsense. You think the police carry handheld devices that point to a home as they are walking up?

 They read an address on a screen. Most police departments don’t navigate or dispatch by maps. When I saw an address on the screen, I drove to that block and started looking like anyone else. When I was trying to do it covertly (almost always at night), I tried not to use a flashlight at night.

On my computer screen there was a single line of information. It had the address, time the call came in, type of call (burglary, theft, vehicle accident, etc.), unit(s) assigned and incident number. I can’t type it on a single line here but…..

So I see this:

26731-23 184/251 1405 7th St 1858 accident

 That is:

 The 26,731st call for service in 2023 (which would be maybe in May or June), officers 184 and 251 assigned, at 1405 7th St, received at 1858/6:58PM and it is a vehicle accident.

If you can look at that string of information and tell me exactly where a house is, please explain it to me. 

There are typically multiple calls on the screen so they are stacked on top of each other. 

 These officers went to an address ending in 5 where it was supposed to be an 8. 5/8. Glancing at night, it isn’t so easy to distinguish. I believe in the video, one of them even said, isn’t this xxx8.

 This unfortunate situation came down to one factor. A man for no valid reason came out of the house and raised a gun handgun up into a firing position. Apparently some people in this and other forums think that if you are on your own property, anything is legal. If a kid is taking a shortcut across your lawn and you point a firearm and threaten him, it is up to 20 years in prison. “It’s my property” is not justification for Aggravated Assault. 

[WOSdrummer99]

2 minutes ago, tvc184 said:

You continue with the technology nonsense. You think the police carry handheld devices that point to a home as they are walking up?

Good idea. Maybe we should come up with something and see if there is a market in the near future.

Here's another mistake by a gun owner...

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[tvc184]

1 hour ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

Good idea. Maybe we should come up with something and see if there is a market in the near future.

Here's another mistake by a gun owner...

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The only hard part about technology is getting a city/county to decide what there priorities are and where they want to spend the money. It usually isn’t the police until something big happens and public pressure gets it done. Body cameras existed years before they were mandated in most states. If not, most police agencies still probably would not have them. 

All of the technology in the world won’t help if you can’t access it.

[WOSdrummer99]

2 hours ago, tvc184 said:

Body cameras existed years before they were mandated in most states. If not, most police agencies still probably would not have them. 

All of the technology in the world won’t help if you can’t access it.

My point exactly. Mandates may be the only way to institute new life saving technology. Same thing as the guns with finger print ID. Bet those are more expensive than a free trigger lock. But seems like a better solution considering nobody wants to unlock the safe and load the clip before stepping outside.

What's this about not accessing technology? Must be taking about dead zones out in the sticks? Global positioning satellites have everywhere covered 24/7

[tvc184]

55 minutes ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

My point exactly. Mandates may be the only way to institute new life saving technology. Same thing as the guns with finger print ID. Bet those are more expensive than a free trigger lock. But seems like a better solution considering nobody wants to unlock the safe and load the clip before stepping outside.

What's this about not accessing technology? Must be taking about dead zones out in the sticks? Global positioning satellites have everywhere covered 24/7

I said access to it. Police calls aren’t dispatched on iPhones.

I showed you what a typical call looks like on the computer screen. It doesn’t use a map and there is not a voice saying you’re arriving in two more houses on the right. 

If you can look at this and show us where the location is, please educate us.

3581-23 331 1201 7St 1757 Dist

I have a couple of drones that will land within a couple of inches from where they took off and will do it on its own if the battery gets low or I lose contact with it. 

A lot of good that does in a patrol unit…… 

[tvc184]

I should have been a TV cop.

DNA results don’t take 6 months…

Your computer tells you if you are at the wrong house…

Witnesses usually cooperate…

 

[WOSdrummer99]

1 hour ago, tvc184 said:

I said access to it. Police calls aren’t dispatched on iPhones.

OK. I'll reach out to my friends in the computer world to see if we can come up with a new OS and interface for the patrol units. If it saves one life it's worth it. 

1 hour ago, tvc184 said:

3581-23 331 1201 7St 1757 Dist

Looks like 1201 7th st

And I didn't even have to refer back to your previous post. I can find that pretty easy. Only question I have is Bmt, PA, or Orange. If Orange it's close to the West Orange-Stark Admin building.

I watch some shows on the tube. Since COPS was canceled, I've been watching On Patrol: Live. I actually saw one guy punch in the address on his Chevy Tahoe GPS. Isn't that interesting? Maybe they're just being more cautious because of the film crew.

[tvc184]

1 minute ago, WOSdrummer99 said:

OK. I'll reach out to my friends in the computer world to see if we can come up with a new OS and interface for the patrol units. If it saves one life it's worth it. 

Looks like 1201 7th st

And I didn't even have to refer back to your previous post. I can find that pretty easy. Only question I have is Bmt, PA, or Orange. If Orange it's close to the West Orange-Stark Admin building.

I watch some shows on the tube. Since COPS was canceled, I've been watching On Patrol: Live. I actually saw one guy punch in the address on his Chevy Tahoe GPS. Isn't that interesting? Maybe they're just being more cautious because of the film crew.

There are plenty of police Computer Aided Dispatch/CAD programs. They have to match security including FBI protocols including each individual vehicle computer and tablet.

If you have friends who will to donate $500,00 - $1,000,000 for programming, secure operating system which has to link with a secure body cam system, I’m sure a city would appreciate it.

It isn’t like building a database and putting it on a dell computer and plugging it into a vehicle.

Finding an address isn’t hard but mostly it’s done the old fashioned way, by driving to a block and start looking at addresses… in many cases while trying to be safe and maybe unseen.

The officers in this case appeared to have parked at the correct location but went to the wrong side of the street.  I think the address was 5308 and an officer saw 5305 which in the dark probably looked the same.

 What if the guy’s daughter had called the police and the man did not know about it?  The police could’ve then been at the correct house and likely had the exact same result. Why would a step out of his house and start pointing  a gun without a valid reason? And no matter how someone tries to spin it, there was no valid reason for the man to do what he did.

 

[WOSdrummer99]

2 hours ago, tvc184 said:

And no matter how someone tries to spin it, there was no valid reason for the man to do what he did

I don't think anyone on this forum has said his actions were justified. He was very stupid. But I maintain that he wouldn't be dead, with those kids you mentioned growing up without a father, if nobody knocked on his door that night.

Obviously we are at different ends of the spectrum. Agree to disagree. Let me know if anything with this case changes and we'll pick this back up. I'll do the same. ✌ 

[Separation Scientist]

On 4/18/2023 at 5:25 PM, tvc184 said:

In this particular incident, the police were not inside his home. 

No they weren't. The only thing that entered HIS home were the police bullets that took his life.