A Tale of Two Cities

[Cougtalk]

Just a thought here and I understand there might be some controversy around this. 

I think Crosby's implosion and PNG's ascension should teach us a couple very important lessons. 

1) We overvalue the effect of athletes (bo's and joes) on the success of a program and undervalue the effect of coaching. 

2) Great coaches will get the enrollment involved and working. At the end of the day the single most important thing for late playoff success is depth and coaching. Yes losing a great QB/RB/WR/LB can end a season early but if you don't have depth at all the "not superstar" positions and if the backups aren't just as willing, able and wanting to play as the starters you cannot have success at the highest levels. 

I think this is true because of a couple of reasons, Winner win. If you are successful and win others want to be a part of that, from that 6'8 300 lbs kid that's never touched a football to that 5'6 kid who will run through a wall to get his chance. They all are important and they all need to feel like part of the team. If you win then no one cares about being the backup. If you win people will be happy to just be on the team. If you win you can have 65 athletes on Varsity every single year. 

Even a team without elite athletics' talent can execute plays at a high level if they are well coached. Practice times, culture of work, and accountability set the standards for developing 14 year old's into athletic 17 years old's. That being said great coaches can overcome program deficiencies that previously existed. 

 

Crosby and PNG prove this. PNG has no more talent now than it has for the last decade. Crosby has no less talent than it has for the last decade. It's about how that talent is coached, brought through the system, and executes daily. 

 

My ramblings. 

 

[SmashMouth]

I’m so glad we are having this discussion. Again. And again. 

[Cougtalk]

2 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I’m so glad we are having this discussion. Again. And again. 

No one is forcing you to be in this thread, trust me I'd rather you not be. 

[SmashMouth]

1 hour ago, Cougtalk said:

No one is forcing you to be in this thread, trust me I'd rather you not be. 

Never said anyone was forcing. I was merely stating the obvious. 

[Coach_Izzy]

5 hours ago, Cougtalk said:

Just a thought here and I understand there might be some controversy around this. 

I think Crosby's implosion and PNG's ascension should teach us a couple very important lessons. 

1) We overvalue the effect of athletes (bo's and joes) on the success of a program and undervalue the effect of coaching. 

2) Great coaches will get the enrollment involved and working. At the end of the day the single most important thing for late playoff success is depth and coaching. Yes losing a great QB/RB/WR/LB can end a season early but if you don't have depth at all the "not superstar" positions and if the backups aren't just as willing, able and wanting to play as the starters you cannot have success at the highest levels. 

I think this is true because of a couple of reasons, Winner win. If you are successful and win others want to be a part of that, from that 6'8 300 lbs kid that's never touched a football to that 5'6 kid who will run through a wall to get his chance. They all are important and they all need to feel like part of the team. If you win then no one cares about being the backup. If you win people will be happy to just be on the team. If you win you can have 65 athletes on Varsity every single year. 

Even a team without elite athletics' talent can execute plays at a high level if they are well coached. Practice times, culture of work, and accountability set the standards for developing 14 year old's into athletic 17 years old's. That being said great coaches can overcome program deficiencies that previously existed. 

 

Crosby and PNG prove this. PNG has no more talent now than it has for the last decade. Crosby has no less talent than it has for the last decade. It's about how that talent is coached, brought through the system, and executes daily. 

 

My ramblings. 

 

Hate to bust your bubble but this not true at all Bud! You need talent to win at any & all levels, talent is 90% of the ingredient you need to have sustainable success in football. Crosby had a two year run & now look….

[pine curtain]

1 hour ago, Coach_Izzy said:

Hate to bust your bubble but this not true at all Bud! You need talent to win at any & all levels, talent is 90% of the ingredient you need to have sustainable success in football. Crosby had a two year run & now look….

lots of coaches who can't develop the talent they have say this.....

[Mr. Thornton Melon]

Coaching > Jimmy-N-Joes

[Coach_Izzy]

2 minutes ago, pine curtain said:

lots of coaches who can't develop the talent they have say this.....

Well we’ll see if coaching matters over talent this weekend.

[Coach_Izzy]

Just now, Mr. Thornton Melon said:

Coaching > Jimmy-N-Joes

Only folks who never coached will say this lol

[Reagan]

7 hours ago, Cougtalk said:

Just a thought here and I understand there might be some controversy around this. 

I think Crosby's implosion and PNG's ascension should teach us a couple very important lessons. 

1) We overvalue the effect of athletes (bo's and joes) on the success of a program and undervalue the effect of coaching. 

2) Great coaches will get the enrollment involved and working. At the end of the day the single most important thing for late playoff success is depth and coaching. Yes losing a great QB/RB/WR/LB can end a season early but if you don't have depth at all the "not superstar" positions and if the backups aren't just as willing, able and wanting to play as the starters you cannot have success at the highest levels. 

I think this is true because of a couple of reasons, Winner win. If you are successful and win others want to be a part of that, from that 6'8 300 lbs kid that's never touched a football to that 5'6 kid who will run through a wall to get his chance. They all are important and they all need to feel like part of the team. If you win then no one cares about being the backup. If you win people will be happy to just be on the team. If you win you can have 65 athletes on Varsity every single year. 

Even a team without elite athletics' talent can execute plays at a high level if they are well coached. Practice times, culture of work, and accountability set the standards for developing 14 year old's into athletic 17 years old's. That being said great coaches can overcome program deficiencies that previously existed. 

 

Crosby and PNG prove this. PNG has no more talent now than it has for the last decade. Crosby has no less talent than it has for the last decade. It's about how that talent is coached, brought through the system, and executes daily. 

 

My ramblings. 

 

This can be said for the other tale of two cities: PNG and Nederland.  And the answer is obvious.  One coach has been able to develop the talent he has to win and the other doesn’t have the ability to do the same.  Remember they have access to the same type kids!

[CCRed]

1 hour ago, pine curtain said:

lots of coaches who can't develop the talent they have say this.....

Agreed

[89Falcon]

1 hour ago, Coach_Izzy said:

Only folks who never coached will say this lol

110%

[Reagan]

18 minutes ago, 89Falcon said:

110%

Your opinion: When the new coach was hired at WOS, the talent just happened to fall off at the same time?  Or could there be another reason for their team’s downfall from what they’ve been used to?

[89Falcon]

35 minutes ago, Reagan said:

Your opinion: When the new coach was hired at WOS, the talent just happened to fall off at the same time?  Or could there be another reason for their team’s downfall from what they’ve been used to?

Talent > Coaching. There could be several reasons for WOS struggles but talent is the overwhelming greatest factor for ever. 

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

2 hours ago, Reagan said:

Your opinion: When the new coach was hired at WOS, the talent just happened to fall off at the same time?  Or could there be another reason for their team’s downfall from what they’ve been used to?

Damn we don't agree on alot but you right on this one. 💯

[Rez]

2 hours ago, 89Falcon said:

Talent > Coaching. There could be several reasons for WOS struggles but talent is the overwhelming greatest factor for ever. 

Why then, did PnG get obliterated in the 3rd round in 2021 (we could barely make a tackle), bring back most of the same key players, and go straight to state the next year? And then, with a new crop of guys, we go straight back? Conventional wisdom said the Mid County schools had no hope to recreate the success of the 70s. Look at us now.

The main variable that changed was the coaching. PNG went from a team that couldn’t even sort of hang with the best, to a team that could beat the best. Coaching is the most important factor, most of the time.
 

I refuse to believe that West Orange suddenly doesn’t have good players. What - was there a chemical leak in the hospital nursery exactly sixteen years ago? Did the gene pool change? What about Hampshire Fannet? They went from bottom-dwelling nobodies to a disciplined, smart, tough, athletic unit - They just happen to have good players now?

[Dirty_but_Dazzling]

4 hours ago, Rez Ipsa said:

Why then, did PnG get obliterated in the 3rd round in 2021 (we could barely make a tackle), bring back most of the same key players, and go straight to state the next year? And then, with a new crop of guys, we go straight back? Conventional wisdom said the Mid County schools had no hope to recreate the success of the 70s. Look at us now.

The main variable that changed was the coaching. PNG went from a team that couldn’t even sort of hang with the best, to a team that could beat the best. Coaching is the most important factor, most of the time.
 

I refuse to believe that West Orange suddenly doesn’t have good players. What - was there a chemical leak in the hospital nursery exactly sixteen years ago? Did the gene pool change? What about Hampshire Fannet? They went from bottom-dwelling nobodies to a disciplined, smart, tough, athletic unit - They just happen to have good players now?

Bout Carthage? until the Lord of the Rings came along they had 1 appearance in state title game in the early 90s. He takes over and suddenly a record breaking juggernaut is created with the same bloodlines and talent that has always been there.

[MackLewis]

I’ll lean towards coaching… but you better have the talent level to go with it.    You shouldn’t have to have Duncanville talent every year to win, but you have to have athleticism.

But a head coach, perhaps more importantly the staff he hires, and the culture he instills is most important in the success of a program…. Just my opinion.

[CardinalBacker]

18 hours ago, SmashMouth said:

I’m so glad we are having this discussion. Again. And again. 

“I’m about to change their minds!!!”

[TrojanMoJo]

11 hours ago, pine curtain said:

lots of coaches who can't develop the talent they have say this.....

Agreed @pine curtain. I feel like we have the same issue at our school.

[wo-s#1]

9 hours ago, 89Falcon said:

Talent > Coaching. There could be several reasons for WOS struggles but talent is the overwhelming greatest factor for ever. 

WOS struggles is all coach! His first year he had like 38 returning,maybe not as much this season but yes sir his first was loaded…btw from the goats mouth before he left was “this freshman class is talented and I want to coach them before I decide what I wanna do “of course he didn’t get to at the highest level,I think they are seniors now

[CardinalBacker]

Science teaches - to have a fire you need three things… fuel, air, and ignition source. 
 

I’d argue that to have a TOP TIER football program, you need athletes, coaching, and community support. Sometimes you end up with a really talented bunch of kids or a really exceptional coach and it’s the last thing that you needed… but not “the biggest reason for our success.”  You can look at the recent local rises and falls of historic programs and take your own conclusions, but the fact remains… you’ve got to have all three to be consistently successful. 
 

Did Coach Rowe at Bellville finally learn how to coach over the summer? No, he’s got a good group of kids.  PNG has shut a lot of mouths that said “you’ll never see another SC from mid-county-they don’t have the athletes.” WOS is an example of what a great coach (or a not-so-good coach) can accomplish with a group of good athletes. 
 

It takes all three (talent, coaching, and support) with the first two being almost equally important and the last being a minority third. 

[BBfan061]

Hear me out… maybe it takes Coaching and Talent?

[Mr. Buddy Garrity]

4 minutes ago, BBfan061 said:

Hear me out… maybe it takes Coaching and Talent?

Yes. 

A good administration. 

Community support as well. 

[89Falcon]

Did I make a post anywhere that states “the only thing needed to win is talent”? 
 

Or is this another example of SETX forum misquote and incomprehension?

For clarification: Talent > Coaching. No coach can win without players capable of executing the plays. Not even debatable