Jasper to return to 5 day school week

[SmashMouth]

4 minutes ago, thetragichippy said:

I often thought if I had 3 kids, it would be cheaper for the wife to quit her job......Adding 52 (rounding up) full days to an already expensive bill could be devastating for some people.

Ironic. After our 3rd child was born, we decided that it would be better to stop daycare due to cost (mostly), and have my wife stay home with the kids. Not everyone can afford that... Luckily, @Box1 can tell us how we "have no idea or understanding on how anything works".

[SmashMouth]

5 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

 The common attitude from those outside of the field is that teachers should just deal with whatever wages and paltry conditions that are provided to them because "it should be about the kids."  Without quality teachers, the kids aren't going to get quality educations.  And more and more quality teachers are leaving education.   you and CB can make it out to be teachers being selfish or lazy or whatever, but the fact of the matter is fewer and fewer people are willing to work for what teachers make while dealing with what teachers deal with.  Districts are getting creative to keep teachers, and for smaller districts who can't afford to pay a decent wage, a 4-day week is just about the best incentive they can offer.  I guarantee you Jasper gained some really good teachers when they went to 4-day weeks, and I can also guarantee you that many of those teachers will leave now that Jasper isn't offering them something that they can't get in a better district with better pay.  Subsequently, y'all's talk about pay cuts is asinine.  As I stated, teachers in 4-day districts are working the same amount of time as before.  longer days, extra weeks.  you think TVC should make less money as a cop because he worked 4 10s instead of 5 8's? Not to mention all of the overtime he made in career, versus the hundreds of hours of unpaid OT that most teachers work yearly.  I knew going in that I wasn't going to get rich teaching, and I don't complain about my wages, but I'm also not going to sit back and listen to people insinuate that teachers aren't worth the meager pay they do get.  Especially when I know guys making 3x my salary sitting behind a console doing a job that a chimp could do.  And  no, I'm not bitter, I've passed up multiple opportunities to go make much more money in various fields because I love what I do.

I have nothing but respect for good teachers. I think they are oftentimes underpaid. My comments are more towards the detriment a 4 day school week is to the students' education, and the unaffordability it may pose to a struggling family.

[SmashMouth]

13 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

Especially when I know guys making 3x my salary sitting behind a console doing a job that a chimp could do.

I'm on your side & the teachers' side 100%, but I don't think that's a fair assessment either. I've done that "chimp" job (honestly didn't care for it though...). Like with teachers, there's more to it than meets the eye.

[LumRaiderFan]

28 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

 The common attitude from those outside of the field is that teachers should just deal with whatever wages and paltry conditions that are provided to them because "it should be about the kids."  Without quality teachers, the kids aren't going to get quality educations.  And more and more quality teachers are leaving education.   you and CB can make it out to be teachers being selfish or lazy or whatever, but the fact of the matter is fewer and fewer people are willing to work for what teachers make while dealing with what teachers deal with.  Districts are getting creative to keep teachers, and for smaller districts who can't afford to pay a decent wage, a 4-day week is just about the best incentive they can offer.  I guarantee you Jasper gained some really good teachers when they went to 4-day weeks, and I can also guarantee you that many of those teachers will leave now that Jasper isn't offering them something that they can't get in a better district with better pay.  Subsequently, y'all's talk about pay cuts is asinine.  As I stated, teachers in 4-day districts are working the same amount of time as before.  longer days, extra weeks.  you think TVC should make less money as a cop because he worked 4 10s instead of 5 8's? Not to mention all of the overtime he made in career, versus the hundreds of hours of unpaid OT that most teachers work yearly.  I knew going in that I wasn't going to get rich teaching, and I don't complain about my wages, but I'm also not going to sit back and listen to people insinuate that teachers aren't worth the meager pay they do get.  Especially when I know guys making 3x my salary sitting behind a console doing a job that a chimp could do.  And  no, I'm not bitter, I've passed up multiple opportunities to go make much more money in various fields because I love what I do.

Showing your ignorance of other's jobs now.  Guess what, there are other folks that have tough jobs as well, just like the "dumb" operator you're referring to.  Good teachers are valuable, I agree, but the profession is not above criticism, especially when they want to change a system that has served kids well for generations so they can have 3 day weekends, at the expense of their customers / employers.  

Maybe one day vouchers will take care of the problem, folks can take their money and send their kids to a school that teaches Monday - Friday.

A four day week puts lots of burden on lots of families that they weren't dealing with for a five day week.

By the way, my 20% cut comment in pay was probably a bad taste joke, I know this arrangement isn't a 20% cut in time and wouldn't want to cut any pay, I simply think the traditional 5 day week serves the community much better.

 

 

[bullets13]

1 hour ago, SmashMouth said:

You have to get someone to volunteer to watch your kids or pay for daycare during those limited times. That's for a limited time though. With the 4 Day system, childcare may have to be considered for 2 parent working families or single parent working families 52 weeks out of the year. It seems pretty advantageous for the teacher, understood. But the hardships it can put on a family's budget (especially in the current economic climate) can be very detrimental. Trying to get kids to focus an extra 90 minutes a day seems to be an issue too. And in poorer districts, some kids on free or reduced lunch just got one more chance to go hungry. Additionally, there are several studies that show that academic test scores falter with a 4 day school week.  I can see both sides, but I would side overwhelmingly with the traditional 5 day school week.

Most of the PROS of a shortened week help the district and the district employees

Most of the CONS are realized by the students and families:

So, are we trying to service the district/teachers or the students? We've had a 5 day week up to this point, after all.

It's inarguable that the 4-day week affects families to some degree while benefitting staff (and in most ways, students).  Realistically, however, it's a very small amount of families that are significantly affected.  most are just mildly inconvenienced, as they are during all other breaks and holidays.

1) some families already have a stay at home parent
2) many families have an older sibling that could watch younger students 
3) many families have grandparents nearby that can watch younger students
4) many families have neighbors or family friends who can watch younger students
5) many single parents who can't afford daycare also aren't working a M-F 8-4 job, and can often change their work schedule as needed, just as they do throughout the year over breaks and holidays and staff workdays.  
6) many communities have programs in place through the school district itself, local churches, etc. to help parents who don't have other options. 
7) many families don't have students young enough to require extra care at all.

 

As for test scores, from what I've seen, decreases, when even present, are so small as to be basically irrelevant, and is more dependent on the quality and length of instruction over those 4 days than having one less day.  Student morale, on the other hand, goes through the roof.  They appreciate 3-day weekends as much as teachers do.  Various studies have shown decreases in bullying, school violence, suspensions, and both staff and student absences, amongst other things. 

Although I am obviously pro-4 day week, I do understand both sides of the argument.  I've worked 5-day teaching weeks for 18 years now.  I understand how days off from school affect families.  I also understand what a 3-day weekend does for staff and students. I'm not quitting my job because we have 5-day weeks, but there are a few districts that are good enough and close enough to me that if they go 4-day, I'll be putting in an application.  And considering that districts who go 4-day tend to get 4-5x as many applications, once has to assume the quality of their teacher pool increases significantly.  

[bullets13]

24 minutes ago, SmashMouth said:

I'm on your side & the teachers' side 100%, but I don't think that's a fair assessment either. I've done that "chimp" job (honestly didn't care for it though...). Like with teachers, there's more to it than meets the eye.

 

 

9 minutes ago, LumRaiderFan said:

Showing your ignorance of other's jobs now.  Guess what, there are other folks that have tough jobs as well, just like the "dumb" operator you're referring to.  Good teachers are valuable, I agree, but the profession is not above criticism, especially when they want to change a system that has served kids well for generations so they can have 3 day weekends, at the expense of their customers / employers.  

Maybe one day vouchers will take care of the problem, folks can take their money and send their kids to a school that teaches Monday - Friday.

A four day week puts lots of burden on lots of families that they weren't dealing with for a five day week.

By the way, my 20% cut comment in pay was probably a bad taste joke, I know this arrangement isn't a 20% cut in time and wouldn't want to cut any pay, I simply think the traditional 5 day week serves the community much better.

 

 

I got a little defensive.  I wasn't trying to belittle the job itself or people who do it, and made my point in a poor way.  And I respect y'all's arguments about 5-day weeks.  I do think people tend to overestimate the effect it'll have on the average family, though.  

[SmashMouth]

18 minutes ago, bullets13 said:

It's inarguable that the 4-day week affects families to some degree while benefitting staff (and in most ways, students).  Realistically, however, it's a very small amount of families that are significantly affected.  most are just mildly inconvenienced, as they are during all other breaks and holidays.

1) some families already have a stay at home parent
2) many families have an older sibling that could watch younger students 
3) many families have grandparents nearby that can watch younger students
4) many families have neighbors or family friends who can watch younger students
5) many single parents who can't afford daycare also aren't working a M-F 8-4 job, and can often change their work schedule as needed, just as they do throughout the year over breaks and holidays and staff workdays.  
6) many communities have programs in place through the school district itself, local churches, etc. to help parents who don't have other options. 
7) many families don't have students young enough to require extra care at all.

 

As for test scores, from what I've seen, decreases, when even present, are so small as to be basically irrelevant, and is more dependent on the quality and length of instruction over those 4 days than having one less day.  Student morale, on the other hand, goes through the roof.  They appreciate 3-day weekends as much as teachers do.  Various studies have shown decreases in bullying, school violence, suspensions, and both staff and student absences, amongst other things. 

Although I am obviously pro-4 day week, I do understand both sides of the argument.  I've worked 5-day teaching weeks for 18 years now.  I understand how days off from school affect families.  I also understand what a 3-day weekend does for staff and students. I'm not quitting my job because we have 5-day weeks, but there are a few districts that are good enough and close enough to me that if they go 4-day, I'll be putting in an application.  And considering that districts who go 4-day tend to get 4-5x as many applications, once has to assume the quality of their teacher pool increases significantly.  

I grew up in a military family (Dad was a Marine), and I went to elementary school in San Diego for several years. We went to school for 12 weeks and then off for 4 weeks (60/20 schedule) with 4 rotating tracks (Track A off, Tracks B, C & D were on and so forth). But that's back in the mid-70's when there were a lot more stay at home moms, all the school kids' families were mostly lower middle income at least and there were great communities of military families in our military housing that could help each other out. I can't imagine that type of schedule these days.

[CardinalBacker]

1 hour ago, tvc184 said:

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion on teacher salaries. 

They are essentially contract/salaried workers. They ask for a fee to educate children. That fee is not dependent on hours or days.

Let’s say you contract a cabinet builder to refurbish your kitchen. He gives you a price, tells you that he will be finished in 10 days and you accept it for $20,000. The contractor finishes in only 7 days. Do you pay him only $14,000 or 70% if the agreed on price because he was able to complete the job in less time? 

Not a great analogy, for numerous reasons.  The cabinet maker won't come back around and complain to me that he's gotten screwed because he only made $20,000 this year and everybody else in construction makes $100k plus.... when the difference is that everybody else is working year around and this cat only wants to work for 14 days a year.  

Secondly, the cabinet maker provides me with a service that I can approve or disapprove.  He might have to do something over or even correct something before paid, but at the end I receive a tangible thing or service.  A teacher does his/her "best" and if Johnny still can't read, it's Johnny's (and his parents) fault.  Don't even start mentioning tying teacher pay to student performance... which is how it works in the real world, where a tangible thing is exchanged for pay.  Teachers are just like "sorry, I did my part... if it didn't work, it's not my problem.  

Teachers chose a part time job because they are, by definition, lazy.  

[tvc184]

9 hours ago, CardinalBacker said:

Not a great analogy, for numerous reasons.  The cabinet maker won't come back around and complain to me that he's gotten screwed because he only made $20,000 this year and everybody else in construction makes $100k plus.... when the difference is that everybody else is working year around and this cat only wants to work for 14 days a year.  

Secondly, the cabinet maker provides me with a service that I can approve or disapprove.  He might have to do something over or even correct something before paid, but at the end I receive a tangible thing or service.  A teacher does his/her "best" and if Johnny still can't read, it's Johnny's (and his parents) fault.  Don't even start mentioning tying teacher pay to student performance... which is how it works in the real world, where a tangible thing is exchanged for pay.  Teachers are just like "sorry, I did my part... if it didn't work, it's not my problem.  

Teachers chose a part time job because they are, by definition, lazy.  

🤣🤣🤣

[thetragichippy]

10 hours ago, tvc184 said:

🤣🤣🤣

I have no words

Well, I do, but just none I can say here......

[SmashMouth]

13 minutes ago, thetragichippy said:

I have no words

Well, I do, but just none I can say here......

Try posting just part of the word... I like puzzles. 😎

[bullets13]

2 hours ago, thetragichippy said:

I have no words

Well, I do, but just none I can say here......

I had a whole response typed out and then just deleted it to avoid violating site rules.  

[tvc184]

3 hours ago, thetragichippy said:

I have no words

Well, I do, but just none I can say here......

CB’s response to a common analogy:

”That’s like comparing apples and oranges”

CB: Well, it’s not a good analogy. Oranges are a citrus fruit and apples or not so their texture is nothing alike. Many people like eating an apple peel, but virtually no one eats an orange peel as they’re bitter and nasty although some people might use the zest for flavoring. What is really telling is that apple seeds are dark whereas orange seeds are virtually white. Furthermore, apples can be red, green, yellow, and maybe other colors but oranges are orange, hence the name of the color. 

[SmashMouth]

17 hours ago, tvc184 said:

CB’s response to a common analogy:

”That’s like comparing apples and oranges”

CB: Well, it’s not a good analogy. Oranges are a citrus fruit and apples or not so their texture is nothing alike. Many people like eating an apple peel, but virtually no one eats an orange peel as they’re bitter and nasty although some people might use the zest for flavoring. What is really telling is that apple seeds are dark whereas orange seeds are virtually white. Furthermore, apples can be red, green, yellow, and maybe other colors but oranges are orange, hence the name of the color. 

Lol. I think you may have left out an insult or two... That's usually part of the equation.

[JSnipes]

On 3/20/2024 at 10:42 AM, Box1 said:

It's comical reading responses to this from people who have no idea or understanding on how anything works.

As with anything else that you want to give your opinion on, do your homework (couldn't help myself) and come in with some legs to stand on. 

The rebuttal of "working parents", how do you handle Christmas break/Spring Break/Thanksgiving Break/SUMMER?

The removal of Friday doesn't mean the kids are losing time in the classroom, that time is made up by starting earlier and finishing later M-Th. 

People throwing the wages argument of "part time work deserves part time pay" are ignorant if you think teachers are swimming in it.

I can keep going but unless you're involved, you can't possibly understand. My wife is in year 12 at a lower socioeconomic school and to help with getting by with 3 kids I continue to work my 6-day a week job. Thanks for taking up my lunch break with your ignorance.

Christmas break, spring break, and Thanksgiving break is hard on a lot of families. A lot of kids go to daycare or some type of summer program for the summer. To try and find somewhere for your young children to go nearly every Friday can be very difficult for a lot of people.