Guest Auditor Posted February 21, 2009 Report Posted February 21, 2009 Just remember a strike zone is an opinion !!!!!! EXCUSE ME ! Do I understand Mr. Ump to say : "a strike zone is an opinion" ? Really ? I have always thought it was defined in the Rule Book. Quote
643 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Only judgment would be a ball or strike, could be considered judgement on wether the batter made an attempt to move, but clearly there is no judgement in applying this rule, if the batter made NO attempt, the rule plainly states, "if outside the strike zone its to be called a ball" nowhere does it say what your trying to imply. I didn't make the last yrs state meeting either but I was at the one the yr before...WW Quote
MrUmp1 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Just remember a strike zone is an opinion !!!!!! EXCUSE ME ! Do I understand Mr. Ump to say : "a strike zone is an opinion" ? Really ? I have always thought it was defined in the Rule Book. It is defined in the rule book.. but my point was that different umpires even though they are trying to call the same zone as the next guy, just sees it a little differently. Now as far as getting hit by a pitch. For me.. if the batter is back in the middle of the box and the pitch thrown is right at him.. I am going to give him first base. You say he didn't try to avoid contact I say it is like a deer in the headlights and he may not know what to do when it is coming at you at 85+ miles an hour. Now I am not giving him first base if he is hanging over the plate or crowding it. To me this is what makes baseball a great game there are so many factors on many judgement calls. This is what I am always trying to teach our newer officials. They may know how to call strikes and balls and outs and safes, but there is an experience factor that you must learn to know how to apply little things to help you do your job. Quote
oldman Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Mr. UMP your reasoning on when you would award bases to a hit batter is just how I would call it. I do believe I was mis-interpreted earlier in this post. As far as strike zone , some umpires are more low ball and some are very forgiving towards pitchers. I know the strike zone and the hit batter rule are defined in the rule book. I still believe it is going to be applied differently by umpires based on their interpretation and opinion. Quote
643 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 I still somewhat disagree with both of your interpretation of this rule, first point being "if a batter was in the middle of box and the pitch was >>thrown at him< you would award him first even if no attempt was made to avoid" How do you know the pitch was thrown at him unless the pitcher missed him the prior pitch, I do know some are hit intentially BUT 99% of the time the pitcher is trying to throw over or close to the plate and IF you thought the pitch was thrown at him, pitcher should be sent to the bus. In the few games I've watched or been a part of I see no problem with a batter trying to avoid a 85+ fastball unless he's mentally retarded OR >>>trying to get hit, BTW only a handfull of pitchers touch 85 in HS ball, even in the Pros they manage to try and avoid a 95+ pitch if nothing other than turning their shoulder. You then go on and say, "I'm not giving him first if he's hanging over or crowding the plate" WHY NOT if he's not in the zone and tried to avoid the ball. Tell me what does it matter where the batters is, I always thought a strike was a pitch over the plate no matter where the batter is IF he's in the box, the way you explained it, your expand your zone if the batter is crowding the plate. Dennis I do know you didn't meen in the first part "thrown at him" but thats what you wrote and I had to respond...WW Quote
MrUmp1 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 one other thing you maybe took wrong was when I said he was crowding or hanging over the plate. I meant if he was doing that and did not try to avoid the pitch I would not award him first base. He he makes an attempt to move then he would get his base. The other part was about a batter who is not crowding the plate, is back in the middle of the box, if he gets hit I am giving him first. Reasoning: If a pitcher misses his spot that bad, I am not going to award him by letting him continue to pitch to that batter. Sometimes no matter how hard the ball is thrown, some of the players just freeze and cannot try to get out of the way. Ex: 0-2 count on batter. Pitcher trys to throw one inside and misses badly and plunks the batter. I'm giving the batter first base because if I do not, then I have given the pitcher the chance to get him out with one pitch. Like I say. you have to look at each situation, try to understand why the rule was written they way it is, then apply it accordingly. Hope this clears up my view on this. At the high school level, I think it is very very few times that a batter is intentionaly thrown at. Quote
643 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Still somewhat disagree, I always have looked at the situtation and do know why the rules are in place and the reason behind them. The only part of this rule that can be considered JUDGEMENT is wether its a ball or strike along with was the batter trying to avoid the pitch. Anytime a batter steps into the box the pitcher has a chance on getting him out in a single pitch just as the batter can change things with 1 swing so how can the count on the batter matter in the least, say its 0-2 pitcher throws a 60mph curve that don't break, batter makes NO attempt to avoid incomming pitch so as to take one for the team and gets hit, does it matter where he was at in the box, if crowding the plate he has to see another pitch but if he's in the middle he gets first>???? IMO it don't matter in the least where the batter is in the box, what the count is or how fast the pitcher thros, the BOOK says he MUST make an attempt to avoid getting hit, standing still watching the ball hit him is exactly why this rule is in place, and to me this is plain and simple. BTW once a batter gets beaned center-mass with some gas I promise you he'll try and avoid it next AB unless he's retarted or at least thats what I have experienced in my short time with the game...WW Quote
besbolbenbedygud Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 I know I'm coming in on the tail end here....but isn't the argument confirming that two umpires looking at this same situation can see it completely different? What if a batter moving back ...(which appears to be an attempt to avoid being hit).... is actually moving in the direction of the ball to purposely be hit?? Are we going to have to start looking at that also?......hope not..... umpire have enough their being asked to do and to do it in a split second. The one that gets me is when a batter will bend at the knee, making his front knee, cross the front corner of the strike zone and takes a curveball on the leg and gets the base....... Or even better.....the batter ducking out of the way of a curve ball placing his head right down the middle of the plate.......gets plunked in the ear hole and gets awarded first base........I love that one!!...lol Quote
MrUmp1 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Thats all I am saying is that if he move to get hit I am not awarding first. I know me and WW will disagree but in this instance I believe that I have seen many different version of this play and I have a pretty good read on if someone is trying to get hit. One time I was doing a small school game in Zavalla. They were playing Apple Springs and neither team was very good at all and their were players that were out there playing just cause they wanted to play and have some fun. This kid is at bat and a 70MPH thrown ball is comming right at his face and he couldn't move. He just kind of shrugged his shoulders down just not being able to judge a thrown ball. Ball hits him right in the nose, breaks his glasses and blood everywhere. Now he ddn't really attempt to get out of the way but he was just frozen. When I answer questions that involve some type of judgement, you have to consider the level of play some. I have never had any kind of argument with a coach over awarding a base to a batter that gets hit on a ball that everyone in the park knows is not close to the plate. They know who was at fault. As Forest says.... Thats about all i got to say about that !!!! lol Quote
643 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Or even better.....the batter ducking out of the way of a curve ball placing his head right down the middle of the plate.......gets plunked in the ear hole and gets awarded first base........I love that one!!...lol I don't know HOW many times I've seen this but only 1 got it in the earhole and he ended up face down on top of the dish, then he got up and took first...WW Quote
Volley_baller2010 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 whats the call runner on third, batter squares to squeeze bunt ball and does not pull back and is hit by pitch in the leg while runner is sliding under for a safe call at the plate. what is the right call a. strike one on batter, runner scores b. strike one on batter, runner returns to third due to dead ball c. no strike runner scores d. none of the above Quote
snafu Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 If this situation is that the batter squared and froze with no attempt at a bunt or to get out of the way, I would say you call strike and move runner back to 3rd... if batter makes an attempt at bunt and gets hit ball is live, strike 1 and runner scores ( I think LOL ) and the obvious if the batter is making attempt to get out of way and gets hit ball is dead 3rd goes back, batter to first next man at the plate... probably wrong on 2 of the 3 but what the hey :-D Quote
MrUmp1 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 whats the call runner on third, batter squares to squeeze bunt ball and does not pull back and is hit by pitch in the leg while runner is sliding under for a safe call at the plate. what is the right call a. strike one on batter, runner scores b. strike one on batter, runner returns to third due to dead ball c. no strike runner scores d. none of the above Just because a batter squares to bunt and does not pull back does not mean that it is a strike. You can square never move your bat twords the ball and it is not a strike. If you make a move twords the ball then it is a strike. If the runner attained home before he was hit, I would score him, if not then he would go back to third. I have guys that as the pitch is coming, makes a move twords the ball with the bat then pulls it back at the last second and I call a strike because he went at the pitch. It kinda like a check swing that went to far. Its all about intent and once again JUDGEMENT. Quote
643 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Posted March 10, 2009 Probabally get chastized for this but I always coached my pitchers to thro at the batter during a suicide, for several reason>> to move batter out of the way, bad pitch to put down, over hands usually gets poped up, a hit batter kills ball n runner returns...WW Quote
snafu Posted March 11, 2009 Report Posted March 11, 2009 Probably get chastised for this but I always coached my pitchers to throw at the batter during a suicide, for several reason>> to move batter out of the way, bad pitch to put down, over hands usually gets popped up, a hit batter kills ball n runner returns...WW I say as long as you do not throw at the batters head, that it is part of the game. Do not throw at one to injure him, but to either back him off plate or as you said take the stealing home runners advantage away... Quote
Volley_baller2010 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Posted March 16, 2009 nice comment about the throw at the batter thing but i have been in an won games because of that type of good coaching. thanks for the runs when the bases are loaded and never had to swing the bat and risk a out. two more marks on the W column. Quote
Volley_baller2010 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Posted March 16, 2009 your right silsbee88 so we do it three times and still win. the bases where loaded that day and the other two days too and the kids where taught to throw at the batter like many are and in the heat of battle the kid does what he is taught to do. Maybe I beat you doing this because i do believe it was a 4a one of the two times we did it. O this is my daughters posting name not mine (baseball101) Quote
Volley_baller2010 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Posted March 16, 2009 good point and hats off to you and good luck to you and your team this season as well your team is well coached just sometimes coaching does not show as much as it needs to. Quote
BudTugley Posted March 17, 2009 Report Posted March 17, 2009 Visiting team batter leads off an inning with a ground ball down the 3rd base line. Umpire signals Fair Ball. Ball rolls up to the feet of home team pitcher warming up in the bullpen who picks up the ball. He immediately realizes his mistake and drops the ball. Left fielder runs over and picks up the ball and throws to the short stop. Batter is easily at second base with a stand up double. * Is it a Dead Ball immediately when touched by the player warming up ? * Is it a Delayed Dead Ball ? * Since it really never effected the play - does the ball remain in play ? * Could extra bases be awarded ? Quote
MrUmp1 Posted March 17, 2009 Report Posted March 17, 2009 Closest thing I find is this. Fair Batted ball touches spectator. Ball dead immediately , Penalty: Award or penalize according to umpires judgement. I would say in most cases, this would be a 2 base award. Reasoning is , for it to touch a spectator or in this case a player warming up, it most certainly would be more than a single. Now lets say it was down the first base line instead of third base, and the umpires judgement is the runner would have gotten a triple. He has that right to make that call. If you do something like that, more than 2 bases, be ready to explain to a coach why you are going to give more bases. Forget about the part where you ask since it didn't affect the play - does it remain in play. Once it touched anything it wasn't suppose to, it has altered the play. Quote
topgun95 Posted March 20, 2009 Report Posted March 20, 2009 What's the call? Line drive to the first baseman, he catches it but the takes the glove off and remains in the glove, player picks up the glove. Quote
besbolbenbedygud Posted March 20, 2009 Report Posted March 20, 2009 its a live ball........ if it was fair Quote
topgun95 Posted March 20, 2009 Report Posted March 20, 2009 So the batter is not out and there is now a force at 2nd? BTW there were runners at 1st and 2nd. Quote
besbolbenbedygud Posted March 20, 2009 Report Posted March 20, 2009 S88 is correct......you would play this ball live as if it were on the ground.....no "human control" of the ball yet...lol Some might remember the line drive back to the pitcher in the pro's........ball got stuck in the pitchers glove....so....he threw his whole glove over to the first baseman to get the out.........first baseman caught it so that instituted "control" Quote
Sportsman22 Posted March 20, 2009 Report Posted March 20, 2009 Fly ball to outfield, player makes diving attempt. The field umpire watching the play gives the safe signal indicating he did not catch the ball. It looks as if the player made the catch, can this play be appealed to the other umpire? Can the other umpire declare the ball caught and the batter out or not? Quote
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