No shirts mean no cheers at Silsbee High School

[DP#1FAN]

The whole thing is very SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Get the right people behind you and you can get this changed.

[fanofthegame7]

calm down man, im not tryin to argue with you here, just slow down and read my post more closely man, it clearly says

"you can't arrest somebody for trespassing at an event in which they have paid for a ticket"

LOL.... I am calm. It takes more than your opinion to get me excited.

.... and in this case, you are wrong again. A person can buy a ticket and be arrested for trespassing the moment they walk through the gate or even standing in line to get the ticket. A football ticket doesn't override state law.

they have to do something wrong to be arrested.....in this case the kids were insubordinate....and i dont think they were arrested....the administrator handled the situation wrong....bottom line...call the kids in at school and work it out there....if they had complants then they knew before hand....if they they got the complaint that nite then they  were wrong to handle it in the stands when this had been going on for a while....I have been to a Tiger game this year and watched these kids come in and go to thier section and yell...I thought it was nice to see some spirit...some of the kids did not have hoodies on though...

[WOSHIGHc/o2001]

Is this a matter of law or is it a matter of getting in trouble at school? 

[SKINMAN 71]

SILSBEE HAS THE MOST UNSPIRITED FANS OF ANY SCHOOL AROUND. THE SCRUBS HAVE BEEN AROUND AT SILSBEE FOR ABOUT THE PAST 5 SEASONS AND EVERY YEAR THE GROUP HAS GOTTEN BIGGER AND MORE SPIRITED.

THE STUDENT BODY WAS FINALLY STARTING TO GET INTO THE GAMES AT SILSBEE WHICH WAS GETTING THE COMMUNITY IN ATTENDANCE MORE INTO THE GAMES AS WELL.

THE REAL QUESTION IS, WHY POTENTIALLY CRUSH WHAT HAS BECOME A GOOD LITTLE GROWING TRADITION AT SILSBEE (ONE OF THE VERY FEW WE HAVE BY THE WAY) BY ENFORCING SOME RULE ABOUT BODY PAINT THAT DOSN'T EVEN EXIST, MADE UP ON THE FLY BY A NEW PRINCIPAL TRYING TO INSERT HER AUTHORITY.

[McLovin]

SILSBEE HAS THE MOST UNSPIRITED FANS OF ANY SCHOOL AROUND. THE SCRUBS HAVE BEEN AROUND AT SILSBEE FOR ABOUT THE PAST 5 SEASONS AND EVERY YEAR THE GROUP HAS GOTTEN BIGGER AND MORE SPIRITED.

THE STUDENT BODY WAS FINALLY STARTING TO GET INTO THE GAMES AT SILSBEE WHICH WAS GETTING THE COMMUNITY IN ATTENDANCE MORE INTO THE GAMES AS WELL.

THE REAL QUESTION IS, WHY POTENTIALLY CRUSH WHAT HAS BECOME A GOOD LITTLE GROWING TRADITION AT SILSBEE (ONE OF THE VERY FEW WE HAVE BY THE WAY) BY ENFORCING SOME RULE ABOUT BODY PAINT THAT DOSN'T EVEN EXIST, MADE UP ON THE FLY BY A NEW PRINCIPAL TRYING TO INSERT HER AUTHORITY.

I hear there has been a great change between last year and this year. I hear they have no respect for the authority and I have heard complaints of cursing as well. In my observations they were told to relax for the rest of the game and they refused. Instead of taking it up Monday with the administration, they chose to make a scene...why? They were told that the press would support them. Of course they will! Look at what this has become! Regardless of spirit and paint, there was a way to handle the situation and declaring war against the higher ups was not the right path. This situation was completely avoidable, and had other action been taken, the SCRUBS would be at their homecoming game shirtless.

[92]

this is retarded...

they are just showing school spirit and supporting their football team!!!

i'd rather my child at a football game with a painted chest than out doing drugs and getting in trouble with the law...

grow up silsbee.

[Kville99]

I guess if we follow te rules all the time the world would be perfect.  If we listen to the government without questioning their actions where would we be?  If Einstein listened to his mentors all the time, he wouldn't have thought outside the box.  If we listened to our employers all the time we wouldn't improve on the job we do.  remember what your parents used to ask, "if your friends jumped off the bridge, would you?" ?  If it would have been an adult that would have done this, what would have been the consequences?  Would anything have been said at all?  And by the way, if I pay for a ticket, it better be a law or written rule somewhere before they confront me about it.  I guarantee I would not have gone along with what was demanded of me without it?  And without a restraining order, how can she keep them out of the game, legally?  Wouldn't that be discrimination?  If they show up to the game fully clothed as the principal believes it to be, I would believe there would be no further reason for the exclusion of these students.  I have never seen a sign at any sporting event that says "NO Shirt, NO Shoes, NO Service!"  Way to go kids!!!!!  Just because they are in charge doesn't mean they are right!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[SKINMAN 71]

this is retarded...

they are just showing school spirit and supporting their football team!!!

i'd rather my child at a football game with a painted chest than out doing drugs and getting in trouble with the law...

grow up silsbee.

I aggre with you but, you should of said grow up silsbee administration and a few stick in the mud fans, most of the community like seeing the student body getting so involved in the game.

its better than all the students walking around at the top of the stadium just hanging out like all of them use to do.

[Guest airitout123]

I guess if we follow te rules all the time the world would be perfect.  If we listen to the government without questioning their actions where would we be?  If Einstein listened to his mentors all the time, he wouldn't have thought outside the box.  If we listened to our employers all the time we wouldn't improve on the job we do.  remember what your parents used to ask, "if your friends jumped off the bridge, would you?" ?  If it would have been an adult that would have done this, what would have been the consequences?  Would anything have been said at all?  And by the way, if I pay for a ticket, it better be a law or written rule somewhere before they confront me about it.  I guarantee I would not have gone along with what was demanded of me without it?  And without a restraining order, how can she keep them out of the game, legally?  Wouldn't that be discrimination?  If they show up to the game fully clothed as the principal believes it to be, I would believe there would be no further reason for the exclusion of these students.  I have never seen a sign at any sporting event that says "NO Shirt, NO Shoes, NO Service!"  Way to go kids!!!!!  Just because they are in charge doesn't mean they are right!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I'm sorry but this might be the most uneducated response that I have ever read.

Restraining order....now that's funny!

[pirate68]

I wonder what she would do if the visiting students showed up painted? Alot of kids do the painting at games now.

[Guest airitout123]

I wonder what she would do if the visiting students showed up painted? Alot of kids do the painting at games now.

Very good point!

[vidor pirate]

calm down man, im not tryin to argue with you here, just slow down and read my post more closely man, it clearly says

"you can't arrest somebody for trespassing at an event in which they have paid for a ticket"

LOL.... I am calm. It takes more than your opinion to get me excited.

.... and in this case, you are wrong again. A person can buy a ticket and be arrested for trespassing the moment they walk through the gate or even standing in line to get the ticket. A football ticket doesn't override state law.

see my other post

its right above yours

[AshlyHasBeen]

I will say this and it's not a knock on Silsbee, every school has their own rules. But this year things feel very tight there. Photogs and reporters are constantly getting told to stay out of the team box or back off the field. I've been to college games where things aren't so strict NFL games are different because the millions involved but this is high school. Like I say every school is different for their own reasons.

[tvc184]

I guess if we follow te rules all the time the world would be perfect.  If we listen to the government without questioning their actions where would we be?  If Einstein listened to his mentors all the time, he wouldn't have thought outside the box.  If we listened to our employers all the time we wouldn't improve on the job we do.  remember what your parents used to ask, "if your friends jumped off the bridge, would you?" ?  If it would have been an adult that would have done this, what would have been the consequences?  Would anything have been said at all?  And by the way, if I pay for a ticket, it better be a law or written rule somewhere before they confront me about it.  I guarantee I would not have gone along with what was demanded of me without it?  And without a restraining order, how can she keep them out of the game, legally?  Wouldn't that be discrimination?  If they show up to the game fully clothed as the principal believes it to be, I would believe there would be no further reason for the exclusion of these students.  I have never seen a sign at any sporting event that says "NO Shirt, NO Shoes, NO Service!"  Way to go kids!!!!!  Just because they are in charge doesn't mean they are right!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

If it was a perfect world, there would be no need for rules.

Restraining order? Get real. The word of a person in charge is all that is needed lawfully. A person has no right to demand to stay on someone elses property short of a court order.

Discrimination? No such thing in state criminal law. You can file a lawsuit if you wish at a later date if you feel that it was a civil rights violation.

This argument is getting pretty far off on a tangent. It is not rocket science. The person(s) in charge of any premises have the right for whatever reason to control that property. In addition, school officials have control over students at their venue and set the rules that the official(s) wants. Rules can be written beforehand or given at that particular moment. It is no different than being on the job. The boss/supervisor/owner can make rules up as they go. It is still a rule.

The school officials are completely within their right to control their property as they see fit. To that extent they can make up the rules on the fly. If someone doesn't wish to comply, they can leave the property or be forced off of it at the discretion of the person(s) in charge. There is nothing that the person can do at that point to change the situation. It is entirely based on the wishes of the person(s) in charge of that property at that moment.

Now that the legal stuff is out of the way..................

As I have said, kids that are painted and with no shirts don't bother me. To some extent, it can be great stuff. There is however a way to protest it and try to get it changed and that is not by breaking the rules, written or oral, known beforehand or made up at the moment.

File a complaint with the principal, go to the school board, get a petition drive, have the news media do a story on it, file a lawsuit (good luck with that one) or all of the above. Breaking rules and say that they are standing up for a right or what's right is not the answer.

[vidor pirate]

I guess if we follow te rules all the time the world would be perfect.  If we listen to the government without questioning their actions where would we be?  If Einstein listened to his mentors all the time, he wouldn't have thought outside the box.  If we listened to our employers all the time we wouldn't improve on the job we do.  remember what your parents used to ask, "if your friends jumped off the bridge, would you?" ?  If it would have been an adult that would have done this, what would have been the consequences?  Would anything have been said at all?  And by the way, if I pay for a ticket, it better be a law or written rule somewhere before they confront me about it.  I guarantee I would not have gone along with what was demanded of me without it?  And without a restraining order, how can she keep them out of the game, legally?  Wouldn't that be discrimination?  If they show up to the game fully clothed as the principal believes it to be, I would believe there would be no further reason for the exclusion of these students.  I have never seen a sign at any sporting event that says "NO Shirt, NO Shoes, NO Service!"  Way to go kids!!!!!  Just because they are in charge doesn't mean they are right!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

If it was a perfect world, there would be no need for rules.

Restraining order? Get real. The word of a person in charge is all that is needed lawfully. A person has no right to demand to stay on someone elses property short of a court order.

Discrimination? No such thing in state criminal law. You can file a lawsuit if you wish at a later date if you feel that it was a civil rights violation.

This argument is getting pretty far off on a tangent. It is not rocket science. The person(s) in charge of any premises have the right for whatever reason to control that property. In addition, school officials have control over students at their venue and set the rules that the official(s) wants. Rules can be written beforehand or given at that particular moment. It is no different than being on the job. The boss/supervisor/owner can make rules up as they go. It is still a rule.

The school officials are completely within their right to control their property as they see fit. To that extent they can make up the rules on the fly. If someone doesn't wish to comply, they can leave the property or be forced off of it at the discretion of the person(s) in charge. There is nothing that the person can do at that point to change the situation. It is entirely based on the wishes of the person(s) in charge of that property at that moment.

Now that the legal stuff is out of the way..................

As I have said, kids that are painted and with no shirts don't bother me. To some extent, it can be great stuff. There is however a way to protest it and try to get it changed and that is not by breaking the rules, written or oral, known beforehand or made up at the moment.

File a complaint with the principal, go to the school board, get a petition drive, have the news media do a story on it, file a lawsuit (good luck with that one) or all of the above. Breaking rules and say that they are standing up for a right or what's right is not the answer.

tvc we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one man

if, as you say, the person in charge can make up rules as they feel like it, how would the students be able to file a grievance?

this is why we have democracy, you know... checks and balances...

[Judex]

tvc, I respectfully disagree:

1. It was not a rule - that much is admitted by the person who enforced the action, in her own words. It was a discretionary action. She made a judgment on a fluid set of circumstances and issued a command. And as this debate has developed we see the problem. If it had been a bright line rule - the only issue to talk about would be whether or not they had shirts removed. Instead, we are now hearing a discussion of complaints of profanity and a change in attitude and tone on this year's version of the scrubs. Frequently authority figures issue commands for various reasons, sometimes misguided and improperly motivated. We prefer bright line rules because that helps us avoid these abuses of discretion - we don't have to consider motive, just the facts as to whether or not someone actually broke a rule.

2. Breaking rules as a means of challenging them is as old as rules themselves. It's the hallmark of our form of government and its creation. It is exactly what we mean when we talk about being free in this country. We believe in free expression. We peacefully demonstrate. We engage in social disobedience. It's how we test the merit of the rules. Incidentally, we frequently have to have someone break rules when testing them on constitutional grounds. For a higher Court to even consider an issue, it must be ripe - you must have a test case. If there is no dispute, the point is moot.

3. As a practical matter, were these kids to challenge this dictate by other means, the football season would probably be over before they could get anywhere. This was actually the quickest way to raise the issue and the most effective way for it to garner attention.

[Guest Silsbee88]

calm down man, im not tryin to argue with you here, just slow down and read my post more closely man, it clearly says

"you can't arrest somebody for trespassing at an event in which they have paid for a ticket"

LOL.... I am calm. It takes more than your opinion to get me excited.

.... and in this case, you are wrong again. A person can buy a ticket and be arrested for trespassing the moment they walk through the gate or even standing in line to get the ticket. A football ticket doesn't override state law.

they have to do something wrong to be arrested.....in this case the kids were insubordinate....and i dont think they were arrested....the administrator handled the situation wrong....bottom line...call the kids in at school and work it out there....if they had complants then they knew before hand....if they they got the complaint that nite then they  were wrong to handle it in the stands when this had been going on for a while....I have been to a Tiger game this year and watched these kids come in and go to thier section and yell...I thought it was nice to see some spirit...some of the kids did not have hoodies on though...

I would just ask that if you are not from Silsbee, please refrain from believing everything that you read in the newspaper.  There is more to the story than the paper or the parents would want you to believe.  There is always another side to the story, and unfortunately most people will never hear the other side of the story.  As far as whether or not you agree with wearing your shirt at a public high school football game or not, well that is your own opinion.  But high school football is supposed to be a family atmosphere.  I do not believe that this is just a shirtless issue.

[Guest Silsbee88]

I wonder what she would do if the visiting students showed up painted? Alot of kids do the painting at games now.

Very good point!

I would hope the same rules would apply to visiting students!!  Alot of schools apply the same dress code that they have at school for all extra curricular events.

[KDOSullivan]

I don't think I would blame the principal. It sounds to me that someone from above told him to stop the no shirts. In the school world, that's generally how stuff happens. The mid-management turns out to be the fall guy.

Besides, it is school, you can't imagine the crap kids try to pull. I have a funny feeling as stated earlier, this has got to have another story.

[Hupernikomen]

tvc, I respectfully disagree:

1. It was not a rule - that much is admitted by the person who enforced the action, in her own words. It was a discretionary action.

When she exercised her discretion it became a rule.  They chose to test her authority and she had to chose what to do from there.  She chose to confront them again and it lead to further issues.  Such is the life of an administrator.  Sometimes you make the right call and sometimes you don't, but whether it was the correct call or not to some you are always wrong.  The interesting part is what happens from here because that will tells us a lot more than what has happened already.  Would be nice if both parties could get together and work something out.

[tvc184]

tvc we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one man

if, as you say, the person in charge can make up rules as they feel like it, how would the students be able to file a grievance?

this is why we have democracy, you know... checks and balances...

You're kidding right?

There is no democracy in school rules. The principal doesn't have to take a vote of students or parents to make rules. He/she doesn't even need to go to the school board. There are no checks and balances. This in not the US government as laid out in the Constitution.

The students can file a grievance to see if the principal or her superior (superintendent) will overturn her rules.

[tvc184]

tvc, I respectfully disagree:

1. It was not a rule - that much is admitted by the person who enforced the action, in her own words. It was a discretionary action. She made a judgment on a fluid set of circumstances and issued a command. And as this debate has developed we see the problem. If it had been a bright line rule - the only issue to talk about would be whether or not they had shirts removed. Instead, we are now hearing a discussion of complaints of profanity and a change in attitude and tone on this year's version of the scrubs. Frequently authority figures issue commands for various reasons, sometimes misguided and improperly motivated. We prefer bright line rules because that helps us avoid these abuses of discretion - we don't have to consider motive, just the facts as to whether or not someone actually broke a rule.

2. Breaking rules as a means of challenging them is as old as rules themselves. It's the hallmark of our form of government and its creation. It is exactly what we mean when we talk about being free in this country. We believe in free expression. We peacefully demonstrate. We engage in social disobedience. It's how we test the merit of the rules. Incidentally, we frequently have to have someone break rules when testing them on constitutional grounds. For a higher Court to even consider an issue, it must be ripe - you must have a test case. If there is no dispute, the point is moot.

3. As a practical matter, were these kids to challenge this dictate by other means, the football season would probably be over before they could get anywhere. This was actually the quickest way to raise the issue and the most effective way for it to garner attention.

Bright line rule? Discretionary act as opposed to a rule? Constitutional grounds? Test case? Issue must be ripe?

LOL... sounds like a defense attorney trying to make closing arguments or grounds for an appeal to the 5th Circuit.

You can call it anything you wish. It is within the perogative of the school officials to make and enforce. If you want to call that a discretionary act instead of a rule then do so. You are arguing sematics though. Either way, the officials are totally within their rights to do what was done.

[92]

this is retarded...

they are just showing school spirit and supporting their football team!!!

i'd rather my child at a football game with a painted chest than out doing drugs and getting in trouble with the law...

grow up silsbee.

I aggre with you but, you should of said grow up silsbee administration and a few stick in the mud fans, most of the community like seeing the student body getting so involved in the game.

its better than all the students walking around at the top of the stadium just hanging out like all of them use to do.

your right, my apologies

[Scrub_1]

something that is not being mentioned here are the 30+ other self-identified 'scrubs' who yelled, shook propane tanks and cheered their team while fully clothed!  You go, scrubs!  We love you.  You guys did a great job  cheering on the Tigers as they almost tripped up those WOS 'stangs.....

Finally, I helped make those tanks lol, SCRUBS are SCRUBS and they'll get through this mess and get back to what it's all about.

SCRUBS WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?

AUOOO!  AUOOO!  AUOOO!

Thanks for bringing all back, Bravo!

[shsucat]

Ok.....let me tell you a few facts.

1.  Gaye Lokey said that if the opposing team showed up painted,fine with her, it would be allowed if the opposing teams school was fine with it.

2. She also stated that she can not and will not enforce dress code at football games.  Had the guys had "wifebeaters" on, that would have been fine even though there is policy against it.

3. The kids involved all have clean school records and are not behavior problems. This is not typical behavior.

4.  Gaye Lokey told them at the game before that one when asked what she thought about it(their painted chests) from the students, she stated "I LIKE IT!!"

5.The assistant principal told the kids : "If you remove your shirts, you'll be kicked out of the game."  He gave the rule and told them what the consequence would be if they did it.  BUT then on Monday he decided he would add more to it and even ban them from homecoming.  The senoirs involved will not get this back.

6.  What is being argued here is the severity of the punishment and how can you just "decide" something that has always happened?  If he decided next week that he doesn't like Nike shoes and wants you to take them off and throw them away right then.......do you comply?

7. Unless some sort of resolution is found in a meeting on Monday, it will be heard by the school board on Tuesday.

8.According to the assistant principal involved in all this, he decided after the Kelly game the previos week that chest painting would not be allowed.  Why were the students not informed???  They do have PA systems and tv's in every classroom that scroll announcements.  The kids would have been given the oppourtunity at that point to plead their case and ask questions.

These are great kids.  Kids that are in the top ten percent, presidents of clubs, leaders in their church.  The few that have strayed and started doing "better" things on Friday than the football game, have got involved because thay think it's cool and now attend games.  At least they did until now. 

I am PROUD of these kids for standing up for what they believe in.  These are kids who DO have respect for authority and have not had problems in the past.  These are kids that will soon lead our country.  To teach them to "just what someone tells you to if they are in authority no matter what" is scary.  In this day of time with teachers sleeping with students, getting molested, abducted, etc...........that could be a very dangerous teaching.

Scrubs, I am proud of your bravery and courage no matter the outcome.  Good luck and STAND FIRM!!!!