Parents out of bounds; respect for coaches waning

[EAGLE07]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Barbers Hill made a run in '07 to the Region III semi-finals....were #8 in one of the final state rankings. 

Hales and Campbell played for SE Texas SunDevils, Thamm for the Houston Heat, Silva w/ the Knights and Magic, Garner w/ the Knights in the summer season.    Oops, forgot..Rocha w/ the Knights and Kelley w/ the Ft Bend Texans.  I think it would be great if an entire high school team could play off-season together. Back in my day, this was against UIL regs. Has this changed ?

[EAGLE07]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Ah ex-coach, there is one missing ingredient in your statement, and it's possible you were making it a point as well..... Select players have nothing to do with teams. IMO, you're in select ball to be if not the best, then one of the best. All thats personal traaining is for the individual to get better, not the team. Players want to play against the so-called best to get themselves better.

Most select players, in baseball anyway, are trying to get a college education paid for. Many high school coaches, not all, no longer get involved in this. Scouts and college recruiters will tell you that it's much easier and more sensible to go watch 30-40 players at a select tournament than to go see one or two guys at a high school game. Now, they will go watch the top talent at a high school game.

[BLUEDOVE3]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Ah ex-coach, there is one missing ingredient in your statement, and it's possible you were making it a point as well..... Select players have nothing to do with teams. IMO, you're in select ball to be if not the best, then one of the best. All thats personal traaining is for the individual to get better, not the team. Players want to play against the so-called best to get themselves better.

Most select players, in baseball anyway, are trying to get a college education paid for. Many high school coaches, not all, no longer get involved in this. Scouts and college recruiters will tell you that it's much easier and more sensible to go watch 30-40 players at a select tournament than to go see one or two guys at a high school game. Now, they will go watch the top talent at a high school game.

It's the same in basketball. And the resoning for all the personal training and commitments

[WeedBegone]

Great article.

No respect for High School coaches is a two way street...in today's world there is a lot more knowledge of the sport fundamentals and a lot more of daddy's money spent on professional lessons than ever before. So where does a high school coach hibernate during the summer? Theres is no question that select or tournament baseball, basketball  has evolved and developed  better athletes than "most" high school programs. A lot of high school coaches are stuck in the sixties and will not accept the fact that daddy's money provides them with some of their best talent. Some kids will develop bad habits during the high school season and some stay away from high school sports altogether. Did your high school coach have it right way back then? probably not, how many coaches know how to teach pitching and will you turn your high school coach loose on your boy.....?

I agree with you.  High school athletics is a two-way sport.  I believe coaches need to make more of an effort to get to summer games of their athletes.  Better yet, go to the younger age leagues and begin creating the "culture" for your program by sharing knowledge or plays, in the case of football and basketball, with the coaches so the kids coming into high school have been introduced to the "system".  BUT, we have big problem.  As was pointed out above, many coaches are teachers first, coaches second. If they tried to live off their coaching pay, and not their teacher pay, they would starve.  These professional lessons that Daddy's money pays for are being instructed by coaches who focus solely on coaching.  Some of whom make upwards of $40-50,000 per year as professional coaches.  Unfortunately, many schools and districts cannot afford a pure coach for every sport, whose only focus is coaching their team.   Therefore, we have to live with the system we currently have (coaches who are teachers first).  Until the economics improve in these school systems, we will have to understand that comparisons made between "professional coaches" and school-paid coaches are unfair comparisons.  Sometimes I wonder if the frustration some feel about their coaches is because they are used to their money "buying" playing time for kids in youth athletics.  When kids get to high school, they realize money can't buy playing time as easily as it used to.

Wow.  I think the writer of this excellent article had many SETX posters in mind, like the two quoted above.  Something you "Daddies dishing out the money" for private lessons need to remember about some of the so called "professional private coaches" out there is that many of these coaches are not coaching in the school systems because they aren't willing to work for the chicken feed teachers are paid. As a parent, I have respect for the high school coach because I know they are in it for the love of the game and the kids that play it.  Many private coaches will tell you whatever you want to hear about your golden child, as long as you keep bringing him and paying for those pricey lessons.  Many don't hesitate to tell you the high school coach doesn't know what he is talking about, "your boy is the best there is, that'll be $50 please".  IMO private lessons and select ball is a double edged sword.  It is great to want to improve on your skills beyond what you can get in high school athletics, but I have seen all of this specializing transform players and parents.  Total lack of respect for the coaches that have put years of blood sweat and tears into very successful programs in our area are constantly being second guessed and bashed on public forums such as these while many private coaches are deemed "guru" simply because you are writing them a check.  I'd love to compare resumes of some of our great local high school coaches with any of the private ones out there...just like the successful teams they create, I think their knowledge of the game and the lessons they can provide our kids would be hard to beat.

Very well said

[Guest shooter1709]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Ah ex-coach, there is one missing ingredient in your statement, and it's possible you were making it a point as well..... Select players have nothing to do with teams. IMO, you're in select ball to be if not the best, then one of the best. All thats personal traaining is for the individual to get better, not the team. Players want to play against the so-called best to get themselves better.

Most select players, in baseball anyway, are trying to get a college education paid for. Many high school coaches, not all, no longer get involved in this. Scouts and college recruiters will tell you that it's much easier and more sensible to go watch 30-40 players at a select tournament than to go see one or two guys at a high school game. Now, they will go watch the top talent at a high school game.

Finally!! someone has said it... the reason that most people put more importance (and yes money) into select ball is because thats where there money will be returned big time in the form of scholarships for their kids... because that is the honest truth of it, high school coaches these days rarely ever help their kids get scholarships or even take the time to talk up the kids to college coaches  ???

[espn2]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Barbers Hill made a run in '07 to the Region III semi-finals....were #8 in one of the final state rankings. 

Hales and Campbell played for SE Texas SunDevils, Thamm for the Houston Heat, Silva w/ the Knights and Magic, Garner w/ the Knights in the summer season.    Oops, forgot..Rocha w/ the Knights and Kelley w/ the Ft Bend Texans.  I think it would be great if an entire high school team could play off-season together. Back in my day, this was against UIL regs. Has this changed ?

Not trying to start anything, but you may have just proved retiredoldcoaches' point.  Because how did that group fair in 08 when most where seniors?

[JS]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Barbers Hill made a run in '07 to the Region III semi-finals....were #8 in one of the final state rankings. 

Hales and Campbell played for SE Texas SunDevils, Thamm for the Houston Heat, Silva w/ the Knights and Magic, Garner w/ the Knights in the summer season.    Oops, forgot..Rocha w/ the Knights and Kelley w/ the Ft Bend Texans.  I think it would be great if an entire high school team could play off-season together. Back in my day, this was against UIL regs. Has this changed ?

Not trying to start anything, but you may have just proved retiredoldcoaches' point.  Because how did that group fair in 08 when most where seniors?

maybe so but several have signed to play for outstanding college programs and I would bet my left that the one at Angelina will sign a major league contract within 2 years

[retiredoldcoach]

One point has been vaildated. 

BH kids all played select in different directions.  They INDIVIDUALLY got scholarships but their high shool team underachieved.

We all hear about the erosion of the team concept in high school sports.  In my opinion select sports, whether it be baseball, basketball, or volleyball has contributed to the downfall of TEAM.  Its all about ME and MY playing time, and MY performance, and MY scholarship, and MY son or daughter.

I have lived through these changing times.  I have watched it, I have lived it, and I am disappointed that it has happened. 

[JS]

One point has been vaildated. 

BH kids all played select in different directions.  They INDIVIDUALLY got scholarships but their high shool team underachieved.

We all hear about the erosion of the team concept in high school sports.  In my opinion select sports, whether it be baseball, basketball, or volleyball has contributed to the downfall of TEAM.  Its all about ME and MY playing time, and MY performance, and MY scholarship, and MY son or daughter.

I have lived through these changing times.  I have watched it, I have lived it, and I am disappointed that it has happened.   

I can't disagree with that but who can fault a kid or a parent for trying to be the best that they can be? In the end it is still the coaches job AND responsibility to mold the team and find the right mix. If I were a coach I would certainly rather start with kids that have been playing year around than with some who dust the old glove off every February.

[Guest patriot117]

I call BS. I would venture to say that any athlete willing to devote their summer to playing whatever sport they choose, instead of going to Garner or running the streets, has TOTAL dedication to their team. If trying to get a scholarship through exposure is selfish, then so be it. Select IS NOT the problem. It's a lack of dedication and poor work habits of others that undermines many a high school team. I've seen it in Baytown for years. You cannot rely on kids who can't pass, stay out of trouble, come to practice or are just plain cancers. That is what you have to deal with at the high school level. During the summer, do those things and you will be replaced.

You cannot have good chemistry if the mixture is not right. In high school, you cannot choose the mixture.

[Guest rambleonus]

I have a couple of problems with kids playing year round.  One being burn out.  Another is the wear and tear on a still developing body.  What of the news about high school kids having tommy john surgery.  I've even heard of younger kids getting it too.  Now, by the time kids get to high school some have played for 10 years. That used to be a career.  In most cases I think the parents have a different agenda for their kids than what their kids want.  Most kids will always do what the parents want to please them.

[ncplaya]

The only thing I disagree with is when a select coach, whether it be v-ball, b-ball, or b-balll, tells a kid that they need to quit or take there dedication away from a High school team.  Especially when the athlete is not one of the better ones and might not make it to college on a scholarship and your taking there fun away from them. They will eventually look back and say I wish I would have played that in High School.  I have a club v-ball coach who is trying to get one of my track girls to quit, she will probably never play college v-ball, and is not bad in track.

[Guest rambleonus]

I agree ncplaya.  The one thing you mentioned is "fun".  Not only is it the first 3 letters in fundamentals, it's why the kids play in the first place. 

[Guest patriot117]

If a kid is playing for the right reasons, they will never get "burned out." They love the game and they want to be around others that love (and respect) the game. It's really that simple.

[DH09]

I agree ncplaya.  The one thing you mentioned is "fun".  Not only is it the first 3 letters in fundamentals, it's why the kids play in the first place. 

Rambleonus how many baseball games have you gone to that your kid loss and thought that was fun. I've seen kid countless times so happy when they made the play, caught the ball, made the out and won the game. Now that's when I've seen some happy kids. And all of that was achieved through hard work, I mean isn't that what we teach our kids hard work pays off.

[ncplaya]

No one has fun losing.  Select or school ball.  Whats your point?

[BLUEDOVE3]

If a kid is playing for the right reasons, they will never get "burned out." They love the game and they want to be around others that love (and respect) the game. It's really that simple.

What are the right reasons? I've seen a lot of "elite 5th -8th grade" athletes (basketball) across the country. When these kids meet up to compete in games and exposure camps, there is a tremendous amount of pressure  from this environment. Parents, coaches, and scouting services are preaching to these kids about how important it is to perform. Even if you tell a kid to go out and have fun, the environment dictates otherwise. It's a difficult balance staying competitive and just playing to have fun. I think too much constant pressure will burn out kids by the time they reach college, where once again they asked to compete on a whole different level of pressure.

[Guest rambleonus]

These are still kids.  Kids need exposure in other activities to be well rounded.  Going to a tournament every weekend doesn't do this.  They can't be a kid.  And parents wonder why little Johnnys shoulder hurts all the time.  Or why little Johnny doesn't know the neighbor kids down the street.  I'm not saying select ball isn't or can't be fun but I think year round anything for a developing kids is too much.

[Guest rambleonus]

BTW, I have a daughter who plays club v-ball and a son who plays bb and fb at KP.

[BLUEDOVE3]

These are still kids.  Kids need exposure in other activities to be well rounded.  Going to a tournament every weekend doesn't do this.  They can't be a kid.  And parents wonder why little Johnnys shoulder hurts all the time.  Or why little Johnny doesn't know the neighbor kids down the street.  I'm not saying select ball isn't or can't be fun but I think year round anything for a developing kids is too much.

I agree.

[ncplaya]

Like I always tell my kids here.  they all want to be Adam Dunn.  They don't know that Adam Dunn was a All-State QB, Good basketball player, and ran track as well his senior year.  Alot of athletes that are in college and professional were standouts at other sports as well.  Not giving up other sports to go year around.

[Guest patriot117]

There are leagues for those players who just want to have fun. That's why even "select" has different levels of competition. In the end, it's up to the individual player.

As far as varsity level coaches, I have the utmost respect for what they do and what they have to deal with on a daily basis. What they have to understand is that not ALL summer teams are trying to undermine their authority. They both have the same goals: success and player development.

[BLUEDOVE3]

Like I always tell my kids here.  they all want to be Adam Dunn.  They don't know that Adam Dunn was a All-State QB, Good basketball player, and ran track as well his senior year.  Alot of athletes that are in college and professional were standouts at other sports as well.  Not giving up other sports to go year around.

It's good to get away from the other sports and concentrate on other muscles to build

[Guest rambleonus]

We've always taken a break every year to give the mind and body a chance to grow without stress on the vital growth plates.  The break has never hurt either of my kids playing ability.  In fact they both have advanced after each break.  I guess we've been lucky.  I think theres too many "old" bodies entering high school the last 10 to 15 years.

[BLUEDOVE3]

There are leagues for those players who just want to have fun. That's why even "select" has different levels of competition. In the end, it's up to the individual player.

As far as varsity level coaches, I have the utmost respect for what they do and what they have to deal with on a daily basis. What they have to understand is that not ALL summer teams are trying to undermine their authority. They both have the same goals: success and player development.

I think the high school coaches get a little upset and worry about their kids getting misinformation from the other coaches.