Parents out of bounds; respect for coaches waning

[JS]

typical ?

[EAGLE07]

I think it is ok for coaches to go watch some of the kids that will be coming his way in the future.  But I do not agree with him going out to watch for the reasons you guys list.  DAD, the little league coach, has been playing him at SS and batting him 3rd since he was wearing diapers.  The assitant coaches son is hitting clean up and pitching.

No high school coach cares where these kids played in little league.  No high school coach cares who was the best in little league.  All they care about who is the best player now!  (and believe me it is rarely the one that was the best in little league)

One guy wrote, "select makes players better".   This may be or may not be the truth. I do know one thng I believe is truth.  Select does not make our local high school teams better.

Local examples:

In the eighties and ninties the Houston area schools were ahead of us and already playing selcet ball.  Our local playoff teams rolled though Houston like a steam roller after spending the entire year practicing and playing here at home. (TOGETHER) We had a rep in Austin about ten years running.  We had teams from the same district playing all of the way through the bracket and meeting in the region finals.

Select baseball moved into SETEX and our local high school teams have fallen off of the map.  You take the best kids (three or four) off of 8 teams in the area and you just left 8 local high school teams playing in a weak pony league.

When is the last playoff run that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last top ten team that we have had in 4A or 5A?  When is the last team that we had that competed to go to Austin? Don't say Jasper either because they play together year round.  

I am sure you are going to be able to name a school or two that beat the recent trend, but the name of that school will not be Westbrook, it will not be Nederland, it will not be Vidor, it will not be Lumberton, it will not be LCM, it will not be Ozen, it will not be PNG, it will not be Dayton, it will not be Barbers Hill, and it will not be Livingston.

Baseball and basketball!  Play together or you will lose.  That is just an honest opinion of a retiredoldcoach.

Barbers Hill made a run in '07 to the Region III semi-finals....were #8 in one of the final state rankings. 

Hales and Campbell played for SE Texas SunDevils, Thamm for the Houston Heat, Silva w/ the Knights and Magic, Garner w/ the Knights in the summer season.    Oops, forgot..Rocha w/ the Knights and Kelley w/ the Ft Bend Texans.  I think it would be great if an entire high school team could play off-season together. Back in my day, this was against UIL regs. Has this changed ?

Not trying to start anything, but you may have just proved retiredoldcoaches' point.  Because how did that group fair in 08 when most where seniors?

They lost in the area round. Pitcher w/ a dead arm and a key player not passing classes having to sit on the bench were the major reasons for not advancing. Lack of hitting in key situations was another. Had nothing to do w/ playing select ball. And the dead arm was not from throwing all summer in select ball. The kid threw a total of 13 innings all summer w/ his select team.

So, select ball gets credit one season when things go well. IYO. (Not sure semifinals with that group is where I would have set the bar) But when things don't go well they don't share in the blame.  It must have been the highschool coaches fault they lost and someone elses when they won.  Typical.

Wow...what a stretch. Could you please explain to me how you got out of my post that it was the high school coaches fault that BH lost ? I said nothing remotely close to such. Also, the Regional sem-finals is a fairly high bar w/ any group. You have to get past some really good teams to reach state....teams that are also capable of reaching state. The two pitchers from Montgomery that beat BH in'07....one played pro ball lastyear and the other played at SHSU on scholarship....by the way,they both played select ball.

To clarify a little more. The kids I listed on the '07 team that played select was to give an example that playing select did not hurt the high school team. Unlike you, I think reaching the Regional semi's is a successful season. It wasn't to show that because these kids played select,  the high school team was good.....although it certainly didn't hurt....which was my point. Believe it or not, there are many ways to lose a playoff series that have nothing to do with the coaches or select ball. It has more to do with the kids taking care of business..............on the field and in the classroom.

[3amagic]

What was the kid from mont. that played pro ball last year?

[espn2]

Eagle- I went back and reread some of your posts, and I thought you were being a little more negative towards the highschool programs than you were, so I apologize.  I do however think that perhaps you and patriot have had the misfortune of dealing with some of the lesser coaches in highschool.  I can asure you that many of your concerns are not problems at some of the more successful programs.

[EAGLE07]

What was the kid from mont. that played pro ball last year?

Bobby Stone

[EAGLE07]

Eagle- I went back and reread some of your posts, and I thought you were being a little more negative towards the highschool programs than you were, so I apologize.  I do however think that perhaps you and patriot have had the misfortune of dealing with some of the lesser coaches in highschool.  I can asure you that many of your concerns are not problems at some of the more successful programs.

Fair enough. I think in my son's case, it was having the good fortune of being around some of the best select coaches and a top program than it is being around lesser high school coaches. BH has had a good baseball program for quite some time.

My take on this subject is in defense of the select programs, the good ones anyway ( Houston Heat, SE Texas SunDevils, Kyle Chapman to name a few ) than a negative view of high school coaches. Select coaches coach baseball. High school coaches are teachers first and coaches second. Many times coaching baseball as a second sport. There is alot more on a high school coach's plate than there is on a coach of a select team. Finally, the bottom line is...you are simply going to get more exposure on the select summer teams.

[elhector1]

I think there is a misunderstanding of what some are trying to say with regard to select vs. high school coaches...and ksagrl is right we have strayed from the original topic, but it goes hand in hand to a certain extent.

Select ball is a tool...not a miracle maker.  It develops it's athletes...but it doesn't make them invincible.  Any good coach will promie improvement, but the charlatan promises "major league".  

As part of a high school team, select ball vcan help the team succeed.  And that is the direction the assistance should go in...player participation in a team's success, not team participation in a player's success.

One of the problems that MAY arise is the desire of SOME parents to get a return on the investment by having their son play more ball.  These parents have spent thousands to get their kid to a certain level...they want to see the payoff.  If it doesn't materialize because the kid isn't getting enough playing time, these same parents may sound off to the coach...resulting in a loss of respect for both parent and coach...

The only question I have is this...wouldn't the thousands spent have been better put into a savings account like "Texas Tomorrow"?  I am not slamming parents of select ball players, there could be other reasons for spending that money...but it has been pointed out that in some cases, the money is spent to get Junior into college.

[JS]

A valid question and you are probably correct about Texas Tomorrow. I am a working man-no privilege here---My family and I would not trade the memories for anything. We have seen a lot of America and made countless new friends--many of which our sons have competed with along the way and still  compete with today--

[elhector1]

A valid question and you are probably correct about Texas Tomorrow. I am a working man-no privilege here---My family and I would not trade the memories for anything. We have seen a lot of America and made countless new friends--many of which our sons have competed with along the way and still  compete with today--

That is probalby one of the best examples of good reasons to play select baseball...the relationships, the memories.  It shows a well rounded approach to baseball, and probably shows a kid with a good understanding of what humility is along with what success is...

I am not a Select parent...mine went through the Little League system, from coach pitch through senior league...and I remember getting the red a** when some fan would say "who's that kid?...di they recently move into the district?".  We had been playing in a local league, but it wasn't the "noticed" local league, so my son was an "unknown", yet he had been to the Jim Gilligan Lamar pitching camp.  I guess part of what I feel is that sense of a "good ol' boy" club mentality that seems to be in a lot of places.

Diamond-J, it's great to see that there are some good parents out there that understand the whole picture... 

[JS]

Thanks. We were Dixie League in our town and I found the good ole boys were alive and well. I coached my sons team for several years and did my best to make sure that a kid was chosen for the All-Star team for these reasons: attitude, ability, and availability. I did not matter to me who the kids daddy was--you can imagine the closed door disagreements. It was a relief to turn coaching duties over to a qualified coach---but it did take time to find the right fit

[EAGLE07]

A valid question and you are probably correct about Texas Tomorrow. I am a working man-no privilege here---My family and I would not trade the memories for anything. We have seen a lot of America and made countless new friends--many of which our sons have competed with along the way and still  compete with today--

Excellent point. I was going to mention that there are many ways to trim the costs of select ball. In my experience, instead of spending a week vacation at the beach, we spent it in Florida, Arkansas, etc. playing ball.  There were plenty of other things to do besides baseball.  Most of all ,my son and I got to spend time together before he left for college. The times we shared and the memories will last us forever. As you mentioned, got to see parts of America that I'd probably would not have otherwise seen. We made friends all over the country that we played with and against. Some of the opponents are now college teamates. Looking back, I do not think I would change a thing.  

[elhector1]

Thanks. We were Dixie League in our town and I found the good ole boys were alive and well. I coached my sons team for several years and did my best to make sure that a kid was chosen for the All-Star team for these reasons: attitude, ability, and availability. I did not matter to me who the kids daddy was--you can imagine the closed door disagreements. It was a relief to turn coaching duties over to a qualified coach---but it did take time to find the right fit

I fully understand...I coached the older kids in Junior and Senior League...but was a League official (President) during my son's younger playing days, and could not coach at all.  In keeping with the spirit of this thread, we once had to eject a parent for being rude and ugly...to her own kid!

Her daughter palyed T-Ball, and anyone who has dealt with T-Ball knows that it's either, as Bill Engvall says, "herding chickens"...or little Johnny or Suzie making like earth movers with the glove a big shovel.  He daughter was one of the latter...she screams from the stands..."get of your a** and play ball"...of course at the top of her voice, and we asked her to please refrain from doing that.  She told us that it was her daughter, and she could treat her the way she wanted...We told her..."okay, it's your daughter, but it's our league, so if you can't abide by the rules, you have to leave"...Sadly...or maybe happily...for her daughter, she left with her child.  When will some psycho parents realize their stupidity? 

[EAGLE07]

Thanks. We were Dixie League in our town and I found the good ole boys were alive and well. I coached my sons team for several years and did my best to make sure that a kid was chosen for the All-Star team for these reasons: attitude, ability, and availability. I did not matter to me who the kids daddy was--you can imagine the closed door disagreements. It was a relief to turn coaching duties over to a qualified coach---but it did take time to find the right fit

I fully understand...I coached the older kids in Junior and Senior League...but was a League official (President) during my son's younger playing days, and could not coach at all.  In keeping with the spirit of this thread, we once had to eject a parent for being rude and ugly...to her own kid!

Her daughter palyed T-Ball, and anyone who has dealt with T-Ball knows that it's either, as Bill Engvall says, "herding chickens"...or little Johnny or Suzie making like earth movers with the glove a big shovel.  He daughter was one of the latter...she screams from the stands..."get of your a** and play ball"...of course at the top of her voice, and we asked her to please refrain from doing that.  She told us that it was her daughter, and she could treat her the way she wanted...We told her..."okay, it's your daughter, but it's our league, so if you can't abide by the rules, you have to leave"...Sadly...or maybe happily...for her daughter, she left with her child.  When will some psycho parents realize their stupidity?   

Some never will.  :(

[WeedBegone]

Thanks. We were Dixie League in our town and I found the good ole boys were alive and well. I coached my sons team for several years and did my best to make sure that a kid was chosen for the All-Star team for these reasons: attitude, ability, and availability. I did not matter to me who the kids daddy was--you can imagine the closed door disagreements. It was a relief to turn coaching duties over to a qualified coach---but it did take time to find the right fit

I fully understand...I coached the older kids in Junior and Senior League...but was a League official (President) during my son's younger playing days, and could not coach at all.  In keeping with the spirit of this thread, we once had to eject a parent for being rude and ugly...to her own kid!

Her daughter palyed T-Ball, and anyone who has dealt with T-Ball knows that it's either, as Bill Engvall says, "herding chickens"...or little Johnny or Suzie making like earth movers with the glove a big shovel.  He daughter was one of the latter...she screams from the stands..."get of your a** and play ball"...of course at the top of her voice, and we asked her to please refrain from doing that.  She told us that it was her daughter, and she could treat her the way she wanted...We told her..."okay, it's your daughter, but it's our league, so if you can't abide by the rules, you have to leave"...Sadly...or maybe happily...for her daughter, she left with her child.  When will some psycho parents realize their stupidity?   

Some never will.  :(

Amen

[zoneman]

Here's an idea for all those mom's and dad's out there, how about saving the 250-500,000 you're spending from t-ball to senior year for that "college education" because about a tenth of a percent of those playing college ball have FULL scholarships anyway!!! The MOST they are likely to recieve, IF THEY ARE A BONIFIED STUD MIND YOU is about anywhere from 40 to 60% of each year paid for. Now if they attend junior college the opportunities are a LITTLE better but remember now what you have overpaid for that two year education????

[Guest Penny]

So basically the high school coach should listen to those who have watched the kids play all the way up through little league and put the kids in those positions in high school.   I disagree if that is what is implied in the previous post.

Read the post,oldman.  I said the coaches need to get out and watch the kids.  Never did I say anything about listening to those who have watched them.  If I were getting paid to coach, I certainly would want to see what was coming up.

You can watch a kid for about 15 minutes and tell if he's a middle infielder, a catcher, an outfielder.... why waste your time when he's 13/14 when I can look in 15 minutes during practice... oh heck I'll give em the whole 2 hours to evaluate a players ability.  Some coaches can pick your shortstop when he walks off the bus.

[EAGLE07]

Here's an idea for all those mom's and dad's out there, how about saving the 250-500,000 you're spending from t-ball to senior year for that "college education" because about a tenth of a percent of those playing college ball have FULL scholarships anyway!!! The MOST they are likely to recieve, IF THEY ARE A BONIFIED STUD MIND YOU is about anywhere from 40 to 60% of each year paid for. Now if they attend junior college the opportunities are a LITTLE better but remember now what you have overpaid for that two year education????

I pretty much disagree w/ every number mentioned in this statement.

[zoneman]

Not being insiteful here but do the research! Baseball gives out the fewest "fulls" of any sport other than softball of the bigger sports in college.I believe the number hovers around 11 to 13 and most college teams are going to carry 20 plus players. Of those the pitching is where most of the money is spent because without it the rest simply wouldn't compete consistently enough to win. The "fulls" are divided up into books and tuition for this guy, and tuition and housing for that guy, and cafeteria plan and books for the next guy. Although the numbers I used are estimations I challenge anyone to really look into the situation because I have been there on the D1 level. The baseball and softball numbers are atrocious and UNFAIR when compared to the FULL rides basketball and football players get! The numbers are what they are and until the NCAA wakes up on the issue our kids will continue to be slighted.

[EAGLE07]

Not being insiteful here but do the research! Baseball gives out the fewest "fulls" of any sport other than softball of the bigger sports in college.I believe the number hovers around 11 to 13 and most college teams are going to carry 20 plus players. Of those the pitching is where most of the money is spent because without it the rest simply wouldn't compete consistently enough to win. The "fulls" are divided up into books and tuition for this guy, and tuition and housing for that guy, and cafeteria plan and books for the next guy. Although the numbers I used are estimations I challenge anyone to really look into the situation because I have been there on the D1 level. The baseball and softball numbers are atrocious and UNFAIR when compared to the FULL rides basketball and football players get! The numbers are what they are and until the NCAA wakes up on the issue our kids will continue to be slighted.

The NCAA has made significant changes that went into effect this year. The numbers still do not quite compare to football and basketball but they are  closer. Until baseball generates the amount of revenue that football does for most schools, it will never be the same. To me, that makes sense. Baseball will never give out the same number of "fulls" as football....there aren't near as many players needed. Mine is a freshmen on schloarship so my research has been done and is being done as we 'speak". Fortunately, mine is a pitcher.

As an example of the effect the rules changes have made, I was told a few years ago that Texas A&M had 45 players on its baseball roster...and the highest amount of scholarship any player received was 33%. This year, just from my "small baseball circle", I know of two freshman that are receiving 85%. At least 6-8 players off of the summer team that my son played on received 75+% to D1's this year as incoming freshman.

[zoneman]

Great for those few! That sounds great but strengthens my point in my first post! Mom's and Dad's are being duped into doling out the big bucks over the child's first 12 to 14 years of playing for a percentage (if they are LUCKY) of a return. The Full scholarships that people are hunting are simply not out there for these kids. Bottom line your kid must be a great one and hats off to you and I am sure you are proud but the facts are what they are, unless he is recieving academic money to fill it out somebody is paying for 15 to 25% of his education. With the economy being what it is that's a ton of money,especially if there are siblings at home.The other misconception is the 4 year scholarship;once signed he will re-sign every year provided he makes the team on a continuing basis over that period of time. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here but I've never seen anyone post a more realistic picture to parents. As far as the NCAA is concerned revenue is generated by more than ticket sales to ballparks and these kids are exploited for the good of every university constantly. Even student enrollment (non athletic) is affected by successful sports teams so they aren't losing money as they may lead one to believe. I was fortunate enough to play both basketball and baseball in college at the D1 level and felt bad for my baseball teammates because I was on a full basketball scholarship and they always had to deal with supplementing their college education in some manner. Just a soap box moment sorry and I am proud for your son! Best of luck and he deserves more!

[Bud Kilmer]

n/m

[zoneman]

Great post! Your son will benefit greatly from your choice and the teaching that he gets from a former successful player. Panic of staying up with the Jones' is truly killing kids IMO. What I consider development of talent is taking someone with very limited skill and making them realize their full potential. Select ball focuses on kids who are already all star material and combines them to form a team to travel and play. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as perspective is kept on what's going on. The argument on select coaching being better than high school is ridiculous. Anyone can make a composer out of Mozart or an artist out of Picasso!!! Coaching is making a player out of "Ned and the first reader", that's what, quite often is asked of high school coaches.

[EAGLE07]

This is an interesting subject to me. I graduated in the mid 90s' and played 4 years of college ball. Had the opportunity to play minor league ball as well. When I was coming thru high school, really the end of my junior year, select was just getting big. I played for Phil Cross, Ty Caruso and was invited to play for Mike Rutledge. Back then the Houston Wildcats (not sure if they are still around, both Phil and Ty ran the club) were one of the big names in town along with the Pasadena Stars and JaxGrill Jaybirds.

Anyway at that age select ball benefited me in playing against some good talent (cant count the number of MLB players I played against or with) and also in gaining some exposure to college coaches. At that time it did not affect the high school coaches like it is now except for one infamous daddy I can remember that played at Bellaire. I think starting around your freshman/soph year select can be beneficial but what gets me is all of this 6-12 year olds playing year round select ball. My son is now 12 and has a chance I think to be a good player with the potential to do greater things than I did but I have not allowed him to play select ball. I played the 60 plus games in the summer and fall during my junior and senior year on top of playing college ball where you have a fall season on top of another 60 games. I did get burned out where after I finished I just wanted to graduate and do something else even though I had the opportunity to continue playing minor league ball. Sometimes I wish I would have taken a redshirt year or gotten hurt to rekindle that fire because after playing for 17 years I had never missed a season...after I sat out a couple of years and saw friends and former teammates playing not only minor league ball but major league ball I got the fire again....I dont want my son to have that feeling so we put in our work together while getting the right amount of games in at  his age...now when he gets to 14/15 I will probably look into the select ball deal but never year round. I look back at all of the guys I played with and against, some of who are still playing, and realize they didnt play select ball at this young of an age, I didnt play select ball at that age and well turned out fine. I am a believer that until you hit puberty, select ball is just something for daddys who didnt get to play the game for a long time pound their chest about. There is nothing better than taking my league allstar team over to big league dreams tournaments and beating select teams...and it happens every year.

I think alot of these lessons and select league is just a waste of money prepuberty....and after all, true select means you dont pay a dime...i know I never did!

Excellent post...I couldn't agree more about early age select. I read an ad just the other day looking for players for a 7-year old for a select team. IMO, there isn't such a thing as a 7-year old "select" player.

Mine started select at the age of 13 and that was w/ a low cost more local team...before he was recruited by one of the true "select" teams. Your post and the last one by zoneman make some very valid points. I guess we were fortunate in a way, in that mine only pitched. We didn't have to show up except the day he was scheduled to pitch.....saving a good portion of the hotel/food expenses. To avoid burnout, usually we took the first month off after the high school season.... and really only played one or  two days a week because he only pitched. I think the 6-12 year old all-summer, every-summer "select" ball is just a way for somebody to make some money.

Zoneman-

You are correct about the baseball 'ship being renewed on a yearly basis. The majority do not realize this.

Also, I more than likely didn't make myself clear while "defending" select ball on this thread. When I mention select, I'm talking 14-18 year old players. I'm totally against the younger-aged select. IMO, I do not think there is such....oxymoron I guess.

[Bud Kilmer]

n/m

[westend1]

There are good and bad high school coaches.  I just bugs me when someone says I should never criticize a coach.  Why does everyone seem to assume that parents do not know anything about baseball, because we decided to do something for a living other than coaching.  Likewise, some seem to think that all coaches must be good at what they do, or they wouldn't be coaching.

Personally, I don't care if it's a select coach or high school coach.  If they are good at what they do, they will get the respect they deserve.  If not, well they don't get the respect they don't deserve.  Why does respect seem to be waning?  As parents, in this age of year round baseball, we have all seen lots of coaches and are probably better able to tell the good from the bad.-----JMHO