Antler Restrictions for East Tex

[ST413]

My problem with this rule is the freak bucks that you want to take out of the herd before reproducing.  A few years ago I killed a buck whose horns went basically straight up only 8" spread maybe.  It was a very weird 11pt had two or what I would consider main beams on one side with a lot of junk points and one little part that looked like one side of a regular six point.  At the time it was the biggest deer I had seen on this stand horn wise but would now be illegal. It did need to be taken out of the herd.

[Bucof2010]

Natural selection will take care of the freaks and small deer if you let the other deer get big enough to compete.

[tvc184]

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="697510" timestamp="1257390955"]
Natural selection will take care of the freaks and small deer if you let the other deer get big enough to compete.
[/quote]

That is what I think and am hoping for. If the doe to buck ratio was close to being correct (not the east Texas 6 to 1) and let the bucks grow up, then dominant bucks would be doing the breeding. The way it is now in a lot of places, a year and a half old spike can be breeding half your does. Start killing the does and get the ration close to 1 to 1 and watch the dominant bucks start having to fight for their does. All this talk of inferior bucks breeding makes me wonder when year and a half old deer are being killed right now anyway.

I know that some people do a good job of managing the but law was put in place for all of the area, not one particular lease or ranch that might have been managing anyway. Also, anyone that doesn't like the restrictions can start the MLD program and now have to worry about that restrictions and can hunt up to two months longer.

[643]

Its a little harder than most think to get a MLD program started UNLESS you have a several 1000 acres or better, in Hardin Co we have 1 pasture of 1600 acres that is under the LAMPS and 2 more of 500 and 900 both are under the Gen season rules. This is our 3rd yr under LAMPS, the main reason we went with it is we were seeing multiple mature does with no fawns, the reason being it was a typical E Tex lease BEFORE we acquired it and if a buck stood up it was shot>> plain and simple, just not enough bucks to go around. This leads to late breeding which in turn leads to more spikes doing the majority of the breeding, which inturn due to late breeding leads to more spiked horned bucks at 1 1/2 rather than a forked horned buck. If you remember back when we had a 1 buck limit, this was a direct result of the ratio of 1 1/2 bucks being taken over mature bucks, I don't remember the #s BUT it was very lopsided. I do know this to be a fact as the TPW biologist did 1 of the surveys at our processing plant for 3 yrs running, I had asked the reason in the second yr, was told he (bio) thought the above but wasn't sure at that time, the third yr he had the #s and was almost sure we were going to 1 buck after that yrs surverys were in. IMO I wish we would have gone to the antler restriction at that time. If your not far the restriction, look what Miss has done this yr, they have been requiring a min of 4 points, this yr they have gone to a 12" inside spread OR a 15" main beam length. They changed this because the old restrictions wasn't protecting the 1 1/2 yo 4 points and allowing the spikes to live, this in their opinion will protect ALL 1 1/2 olds. I'm in one way glad to see the change BUT on the other hand I'm thinking this law will let bucks mature that will inturn bring more $$ to the property owners >>>SAME as what has happened to some in the MLPD programs... 

[Guest happyhour4]

i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me

[westend1]

So, did the new restrictions cost anybody a deer that they really wanted to shoot this weekend?

[tvc184]

[quote name="happyhour4" post="703564" timestamp="1257880543"]
i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me
[/quote]

::)

[spoonbill]

[quote name="happyhour4" post="703564" timestamp="1257880543"]
i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me
[/quote]a friend of mine that hunts on a lease towards san augustine had a warden check his camp last weekend. he said that the wardens in his area agreed to be cautious writing tickets for the new restrictions, if the deer is real close. he said if he feels it it an obvious infraction, he would ticket them, but if it was real close, he wouldn't. he had a 6 point head in his truck that measured 6 1/2 inside spread. i'm assuming that it wasn't close enough. ;D my wife shot an 8 pt with 13 1/4 inside spread. it was well outside of the "alert" ears. it was a pretty thick rack...the outside was well over 16. when i walked up to it i had no doubt it was good, but when i measured it, it was close. this was the biggest deer she had ever shot. i sure would hate for an unethical hunter to shoot a deer and then, after measuring it, let it lie for fear of getting a violation. i'm still not sold on the new regs. on some public lands, shooting does isn't an option and people spend a lot of money on gas, gear, etc. to go home emptyhanded at the end of the season. these folks will be very tempted to take something smaller than the new regs.

[txstar]

I won't bore ya'll with all my "deer management" mess, but I assure you that the rule will be NO Bueno.  Bottomline, until east Tx hunters can accurately age deer, it's not going to get better...plus, if you have to let those basket racks 'walk', you're gonna get a bunch more basket racks on the property...inferior mature deer need to be shot to eliminate their poor genetics from the herd, so I believe this 'rule' will be counter productive.  I wish everyone great hunting this season, and be careful entering and exiting stands.

[Bucof2010]

[quote name="txstar" post="704386" timestamp="1257972927"]
I won't bore ya'll with all my "deer management" mess, but I assure you that the rule will be NO Bueno.  Bottomline, until east Tx hunters can accurately age deer, it's not going to get better...plus, if you have to let those basket racks 'walk', you're gonna get a bunch more basket racks on the property...inferior mature deer need to be shot to eliminate their poor genetics from the herd, so I believe this 'rule' will be counter productive.  I wish everyone great hunting this season, and be careful entering and exiting stands.
[/quote]

Its working fine at the lakes...natural selection and besides a lot of the basket racks wouldn't be basket racks if people let them walk.

[tvc184]

[quote name="westend1" post="703568" timestamp="1257880798"]
So, did the new restrictions cost anybody a deer that they really wanted to shoot this weekend?
[/quote]

I wanted to shoot that fairly good size doe that walked out an did.  ;D

[Bucof2010]

[quote name="tvc184" post="703587" timestamp="1257882153"]
[quote author=happyhour4 link=topic=54675.msg703564#msg703564 date=1257880543]
i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me
[/quote]

::)
[/quote]

You gotta be joking or retarted please tell me it isn't the latter.

[tvc184]

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="704688" timestamp="1257996451"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=54675.msg703587#msg703587 date=1257882153]
[quote author=happyhour4 link=topic=54675.msg703564#msg703564 date=1257880543]
i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me
[/quote]

::)
[/quote]

You gotta be joking or retarted please tell me it isn't the latter.
[/quote]

I was responding to the supposition stated by happyhour that the antler restrictions are nothing more than a new reason for game wardens to issue more citations.

If he thinks the AR's are stupid then great. To each his own opinion. To think that this was nothing more than a reason to get more citations is ridiculous. .

[Bucof2010]

[quote name="tvc184" post="704777" timestamp="1258020690"]
[quote author=Bucof2010 link=topic=54675.msg704688#msg704688 date=1257996451]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=54675.msg703587#msg703587 date=1257882153]
[quote author=happyhour4 link=topic=54675.msg703564#msg703564 date=1257880543]
i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me
[/quote]

::)
[/quote]

You gotta be joking or retarted please tell me it isn't the latter.
[/quote]

I was responding to the supposition stated by happyhour that the antler restrictions are nothing more than a new reason for game wardens to issue more citations.

If he thinks the AR's are stupid then great. To each his own opinion. To think that this was nothing more than a reason to get more citations is ridiculous. .
[/quote]

Sorry I was referring to him as well...that's just plain stupidity

[spoonbill]

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="704503" timestamp="1257984803"]
[quote author=txstar link=topic=54675.msg704386#msg704386 date=1257972927]
I won't bore ya'll with all my "deer management" mess, but I assure you that the rule will be NO Bueno.  Bottomline, until east Tx hunters can accurately age deer, it's not going to get better...plus, if you have to let those basket racks 'walk', you're gonna get a bunch more basket racks on the property...inferior mature deer need to be shot to eliminate their poor genetics from the herd, so I believe this 'rule' will be counter productive.  I wish everyone great hunting this season, and be careful entering and exiting stands.
[/quote]

Its working fine at the lakes...natural selection and besides a lot of the basket racks wouldn't be basket racks if people let them walk.
[/quote]he's talking about deer that have genetics that cause them to never grow a rack bigger than "basket racks". i've seen 4-5 yr old deer that have the real tight racks. they will never get bigger. their genetics have them predisposed to have this type of rack. for "real" game management these need to be culled along with the spikes. you don't want these deer spreading their inferior bloodlines through breeding. i think tpwd had good intentions, but as usual when the government tries to make a good decision, something gets lost along the way.

[bronco1]

I like it, it may stink for some folks right now but in years to come it will mean more nice deer to harvest.

[tvc184]

[quote name="spoonbill" post="704949" timestamp="1258041799"]

he's talking about deer that have genetics that cause them to never grow a rack bigger than "basket racks". i've seen 4-5 yr old deer that have the real tight racks. they will never get bigger. their genetics have them predisposed to have this type of rack. for "real" game management these need to be culled along with the spikes. you don't want these deer spreading their inferior bloodlines through breeding. i think tpwd had good intentions, but as usual when the government tries to make a good decision, something gets lost along the way.
[/quote]

Whitetails have been here for thousands of years (at least) and with absolutely no restrictions yet we still have basket rack deer. Why is that? I figured we would have culled all of them out with the great management styles in east Texas. The notion that this program is going to somehow cause an inferior deer herd doesn't seem to hold any rationality to it. The inferior deer have been hunted and killed with no restrictions for hundreds of years but they are still here.

The deal is that is some areas of the state, people kill everything that moves. If they managed their own areas, the state would not have stepped in. If the people will just kill does, kill does, kill does and let the herd grow up somewhat, nature will take care of itself. Once you get some truly dominant bucks, you won't have all these 4.5 year old basket racks breeding the does with their 7/1 ratio in some areas of east Texas. The inferior bloodlines are spread because there are so many does that 1.5 year old spikes and 4.5 year old baskets are breeding them. Kill the does like crazy, kill the spikes and let the herd grow up. Also, we are not talking about some 15 year plan to harvest deer. A fawn this year should be outside of his ears within three years from now. This season's yearlings will be there in two and so on.

I've talked to people that hunted in some AR counties and their success was easily seen.

I hunt on a little less than 1,000 acres outside of Chester. We started self managing the deer four years ago. We have killed more than 60 does in the first three years. For two years we did not take any bucks. Last year we took a couple and one measured at 138 inches which is by far the biggest we have ever taken. This year so far, we have taken a 141 and two other bucks probably in the 120-130 range. We have killed no basket rack deer and this year killed the only spike (twin 11" beams) in the last several years yet we are now taking more and bigger deer than we have ever seen. Since we are not killing basket rack deer, why are we seeing more and much larger bucks? Nature does a pretty good job of letting the strongest survive. We/people are the ones that thrown a wrench into that plan by killing every buck that walks and not thinning out the does with equal fervor.

Aging would be a better way to manage than simply horn width but it is too arbitrary and would be abused more. Physical measurements are easier to understand, to see with your own eyes and to check. 

I think that two or three years from now, most of the people that are complaining will not want to go back to letting everyone kill everything that moves.

[spoonbill]

[quote name="tvc184" post="705180" timestamp="1258058158"]
[quote author=spoonbill link=topic=54675.msg704949#msg704949 date=1258041799]

he's talking about deer that have genetics that cause them to never grow a rack bigger than "basket racks". i've seen 4-5 yr old deer that have the real tight racks. they will never get bigger. their genetics have them predisposed to have this type of rack. for "real" game management these need to be culled along with the spikes. you don't want these deer spreading their inferior bloodlines through breeding. i think tpwd had good intentions, but as usual when the government tries to make a good decision, something gets lost along the way.
[/quote]

Whitetails have been here for thousands of years (at least) and with absolutely no restrictions yet we still have basket rack deer. Why is that? I figured we would have culled all of them out with the great management styles in east Texas. The notion that this program is going to somehow cause an inferior deer herd doesn't seem to hold any rationality to it. The inferior deer have been hunted and killed with no restrictions for hundreds of years but they are still here.

The deal is that is some areas of the state, people kill everything that moves. If they managed their own areas, the state would not have stepped in. If the people will just kill does, kill does, kill does and let the herd grow up somewhat, nature will take care of itself. Once you get some truly dominant bucks, you won't have all these 4.5 year old basket racks breeding the does with their 7/1 ratio in some areas of east Texas. The inferior bloodlines are spread because there are so many does that 1.5 year old spikes and 4.5 year old baskets are breeding them. Kill the does like crazy, kill the spikes and let the herd grow up. Also, we are not talking about some 15 year plan to harvest deer. A fawn this year should be outside of his ears within three years from now. This season's yearlings will be there in two and so on.

I've talked to people that hunted in some AR counties and their success was easily seen.

I hunt on a little less than 1,000 acres outside of Chester. We started self managing the deer four years ago. We have killed more than 60 does in the first three years. For two years we did not take any bucks. Last year we took a couple and one measured at 138 inches which is by far the biggest we have ever taken. This year so far, we have taken a 141 and two other bucks probably in the 120-130 range. We have killed no basket rack deer and this year killed the only spike (twin 11" beams) in the last several years yet we are now taking more and bigger deer than we have ever seen. Since we are not killing basket rack deer, why are we seeing more and much larger bucks? Nature does a pretty good job of letting the strongest survive. We/people are the ones that thrown a wrench into that plan by killing every buck that walks and not thinning out the does with equal fervor.

Aging would be a better way to manage than simply horn width but it is too arbitrary and would be abused more. Physical measurements are easier to understand, to see with your own eyes and to check. 

I think that two or three years from now, most of the people that are complaining will not want to go back to letting everyone kill everything that moves.
[/quote]so..what happens to those basket rack bucks? do they just go away? they stop breeding? any moron should be able to tell a 1 1/2 yr old 4 pt from a 4-5 yr old basket rack buck. this rule is to protect the deer from the people that shoot everything that walks by. well....guess what? those people weren't that ethical before. what makes you think they will be now? they're gonna do what they do no matter what. this is just another liberal rule/law put on people because they can't take care of themselves. let the government make decisions for us like healthcare. the only people that it affects are the poor people that hunt on free land because that's all they can afford. most people on leases have been using their own management practices for some time. we pay the money and want to see the payoff for it. i can't stand it when the government makes decisions for the people because they think the people are too dumb to make decisions for themselves. this topic splits directly based on paid leases vs. public land. people on leases like it because they were basically doing this anyway. people on public land were already limited by rules and now are limited even more. how can you kill does, does, does if you don't have a permit on public land? it doesn't affect me, but i know it does affect some friends on public land.

[tvc184]

[quote name="spoonbill" post="705240" timestamp="1258062406"]
so..what happens to those basket rack bucks? do they just go away? they stop breeding? any moron should be able to tell a 1 1/2 yr old 4 pt from a 4-5 yr old basket rack buck. this rule is to protect the deer from the people that shoot everything that walks by. well....guess what? those people weren't that ethical before. what makes you think they will be now? they're gonna do what they do no matter what. this is just another liberal rule/law put on people because they can't take care of themselves. let the government make decisions for us like healthcare. the only people that it affects are the poor people that hunt on free land because that's all they can afford. most people on leases have been using their own management practices for some time. we pay the money and want to see the payoff for it. i can't stand it when the government makes decisions for the people because they think the people are too dumb to make decisions for themselves. this topic splits directly based on paid leases vs. public land. people on leases like it because they were basically doing this anyway. people on public land were already limited by rules and now are limited even more. how can you kill does, does, does if you don't have a permit on public land? it doesn't affect me, but i know it does affect some friends on public land.
[/quote]

You can never stop poachers or idiots. If that is a standard to set laws by then lets do away with seasons and bag limits. To compare AR to those people is foolish at best since they go by no rules anyway.

Yes, this rule is to protect the deer from the people that shoot everything that walks by but a majority of hunters go by the rules. They might not like them but they go by them even if the only reason is to keep from being caught.

I completely disagree with people using their own management practices for some time... that is unless you call kill anything that moves as a management practice.

You say that you can't stand the government making decisions for you. Great but everything we catch or kill is a decision made by the government assuming you want to hunt or fish legally. Specks have to be 15" to keep. I would bet there are a lot of people that wish it was 13". Well the government has made a decision. The limits you have on deer each year, regardless of AR, is a regulation where the government has made a decision for you. Your lease might be overrun with deer but the only way to take more of them off than you are allowed on your license is to get more hunters or go to a management program like MLD.

I agree with the does on public land deal. Of course, unrestricted killing of does on public land might result in them going the way of the buffalo. I think the state should do their surveys and issue doe permits, if even by drawing.

As far as bucks on public land, the reason they only see and kill 1.5 year old deer is because they are in competition with the guy 400 yards away that is going to kill whatever is legal. You might as well shoot the 1.5 year old 4 point because if you don't, the guy on either side of you will. Public land is where this will have the biggest impact. A couple of years from now, maybe the public land hunters will have something to look forward to other than a spike.

[BearBryant]

I don't know a single hunter other than outlaws that practice the "kill everything that moves".  Most leases here (every one I've been on) have had some sort of management program on it. 

Some people here act as if people in East Texas don't know a thing about hunting at all. A bit arrogant.

East Texas isn't south Texas which is littered with high fences, tame bred deer, and canned hunts. 

[tvc184]

[quote name="bearbryant" post="705316" timestamp="1258068299"]
I don't know a single hunter other than outlaws that practice the "kill everything that moves".  Most leases here (every one I've been on) have had some sort of management program on it. 

Some people here act as if people in East Texas don't know a thing about hunting at all. A bit arrogant.

East Texas isn't south Texas which is littered with high fences, tame bred deer, and canned hunts. 
[/quote]

Kill everything that moves is an oversimplification of, kill anything that is legal... which usually means the first deer that comes across your path.

I have friends that hunt on such leases and I hunted on such a lease (the same one I am on now but we quit that four years ago) and I can guarantee that a substantial percentage of public hunters use such practices. If it is a buck, it is legal per lease rules. Notwithstanding some bucks are culls, a majority of them are not and need some kind of protection that they aren't getting now.

[BearBryant]

[quote name="tvc184" post="705319" timestamp="1258069060"]
[quote author=bearbryant link=topic=54675.msg705316#msg705316 date=1258068299]
I don't know a single hunter other than outlaws that practice the "kill everything that moves".  Most leases here (every one I've been on) have had some sort of management program on it. 

Some people here act as if people in East Texas don't know a thing about hunting at all. A bit arrogant.

East Texas isn't south Texas which is littered with high fences, tame bred deer, and canned hunts. 
[/quote]

Kill everything that moves is an oversimplification of, kill anything that is legal... which usually means the first deer that comes across your path.

I have friends that hunt on such leases and I hunted on such a lease (the same one I am on now but we quit that four years ago) and I can guarantee that a substantial percentage of public hunters use such practices. If it is a buck, it is legal per lease rules. Notwithstanding some bucks are culls, a majority of them are not and [b]need some kind of protection that they aren't getting now.[/b]
[/quote]

If you are interested in killing for the sake of hanging something on the wall.... which many hunters are not.  And to think that because they don't care about some giant that they don't know how to hunt, or age deer, or be management minded is what I have the problem with.  My grandfather killed one deer a year... ONE.  He would go out and hunt and hunt and hunt and then towards the end of the  season if something he wanted hadnt' came along he'd take one.  Usually doe season was over so he shot a buck.  Nice little rack on the barn but nothing to mount.  The man could out hunt all of us put together... didn't even know what a box stand or climbing stand was. 

[Guest happyhour4]

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="704805" timestamp="1258029974"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=54675.msg704777#msg704777 date=1258020690]
[quote author=Bucof2010 link=topic=54675.msg704688#msg704688 date=1257996451]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=54675.msg703587#msg703587 date=1257882153]
[quote author=happyhour4 link=topic=54675.msg703564#msg703564 date=1257880543]
i think this is just a money deal so the wardens can write tickets its dumb if you ask me
[/quote]

::)
[/quote]

You gotta be joking or retarted please tell me it isn't the latter.
[/quote]

I was responding to the supposition stated by happyhour that the antler restrictions are nothing more than a new reason for game wardens to issue more citations.

If he thinks the AR's are stupid then great. To each his own opinion. To think that this was nothing more than a reason to get more citations is ridiculous. .
[/quote]

Sorry I was referring to him as well...that's just plain stupidity
[/quote]


i would like to no how is it stupid

[Bucof2010]

And if more people hunted like your grandfather we wouldn't have a problem.

Happyhour4 do you really think wardens care how many tickets they write? No.

Would they have to make these laws in order to write more citations. No.

Were there easier laws they could have made to write more tickets. Yes.

[Guest happyhour4]

actually i am a game warnerand those tickets get written all the time and i think its dumb.....
so quit acting like you no everything  :-*