BigNutBuck Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 I'm not saying a kid go straight football. They can play what they want. If they want to spend all summer long playing summer basketball and not spending the amount of time in the weightroom to be successful, FINE. They have that right. But when football comes around and they get pushed around, can't tackle when they get tired, and are less physical than their opponent, and they struggle to win games, don't blame the coaches. The weightroom is open all summer. Its football season. It sounds like to me the people in Orangefield encourage straight basketball with this all summer long stuff. Thats fine too, but like JACF said, prepare for the season at hand. Its football time baby, and if you don't prepare to win in the summer you will lose in the fall. You can't show up in August expecting to win when basketball and baseball is more important than weights and running in June and July. Thats o.k. though, the coaches will be blamed for a subpar season. Bleed, for one Orangefield don't have the numbers, your right. I think they have some good athletes, not near as many as some of their opponents. They definetly don't have the numbers for one-sport athletes. You can't win at a school like Orangefield, with the smallest enrollment in your district with kids going straight baseball and basketball. You have to get the best guys out. Secondly, speed kills! They don't have the speed of the Silsbee's, WOS's, and not even BC on most years. Is it race related, probably so. When the last time you saw an all white sprint relay or 100 meter finals in Austin at the state meet. I'm not saying you can't overcome it and be competitive and even win. YOU CAN. I believe, just like the school MOTTO. Like I stated before, all white teams better be stronger and tougher, because in all likely hood they will be slower and man for man less athletic. Celina, SLC, and Katy don't win because they are faster. They are extremely disciplined, strong, tough (mentally and physically), and they EXPECT to win. When the kids there buy into the track program (to get faster and tougher) and spend all the time they can in the weight room (to get stronger and tougher) they will continue to struggle. Like I stated before, you either get better or worse from May to July. It depends on the time you put into the sport (the weight training, conditioning, and drills), if you progress or regress. They obviously spend the time on the hardwood (year round) and it shows in the school basketball season. They need that same committment and drive for football. I know the reason. Its a much easier way out to go dribble around in a gym and play a few unorganized games a week than it is to drag your butt up to the track, run some sprints and throw some weight around. That takes much more desire and discipline. Maybe thats whats lacking and that starts at the house.
Guest bleed orange Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 number's make no deference,just take a look over at west orange WOS had 152 graduates, Orangehad 112. That's 40 kids. Multiply that by 4 and you have 160 kids, eighty of that could be boys. Numbers may not matter all the time but they do matter. Also, I agree with your last post Bignutbuck except there are fast white kids but some of them are not running track and they are not on the football field. For some reason, some of them quit. I have no answer why. Well I do but I cannot say it on a public forum. Coaching does have something to do with it. I believe that if WOS did not have a disciplinarian like Dan Hooks over there, they would not be as successful.
AggiesAreWe Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 I'm not saying a kid go straight football. They can play what they want. If they want to spend all summer long playing summer basketball and not spending the amount of time in the weightroom to be successful, FINE. They have that right. But when football comes around and they get pushed around, can't tackle when they get tired, and are less physical than their opponent, and they struggle to win games, don't blame the coaches. The weightroom is open all summer. Its football season. It sounds like to me the people in Orangefield encourage straight basketball with this all summer long stuff. Thats fine too, but like JACF said, prepare for the season at hand. Its football time baby, and if you don't prepare to win in the summer you will lose in the fall. You can't show up in August expecting to win when basketball and baseball is more important than weights and running in June and July. Thats o.k. though, the coaches will be blamed for a subpar season. Bleed, for one Orangefield don't have the numbers, your right. I think they have some good athletes, not near as many as some of their opponents. They definetly don't have the numbers for one-sport athletes. You can't win at a school like Orangefield, with the smallest enrollment in your district with kids going straight baseball and basketball. You have to get the best guys out. Secondly, speed kills! They don't have the speed of the Silsbee's, WOS's, and not even BC on most years. Is it race related, probably so. When the last time you saw an all white sprint relay or 100 meter finals in Austin at the state meet. I'm not saying you can't overcome it and be competitive and even win. YOU CAN. I believe, just like the school MOTTO. Like I stated before, all white teams better be stronger and tougher, because in all likely hood they will be slower and man for man less athletic. Celina, SLC, and Katy don't win because they are faster. They are extremely disciplined, strong, tough (mentally and physically), and they EXPECT to win. When the kids there buy into the track program (to get faster and tougher) and spend all the time they can in the weight room (to get stronger and tougher) they will continue to struggle. Like I stated before, you either get better or worse from May to July. It depends on the time you put into the sport (the weight training, conditioning, and drills), if you progress or regress. They obviously spend the time on the hardwood (year round) and it shows in the school basketball season. They need that same committment and drive for football. I know the reason. Its a much easier way out to go dribble around in a gym and play a few unorganized games a week than it is to drag your butt up to the track, run some sprints and throw some weight around. That takes much more desire and discipline. Maybe thats whats lacking and that starts at the house. I believe that just about says it all. Good post. I will not pretend to know the ins and outs of Orangefield athletics. My Silsbee Tigers have been in the same district with the Bobcats for only these last 3 years, and that is as much as I have seen of the Bobcats. So, with only 3 years of experience, this is my perspective: The numbers do hurt Orangefield. They have to rely on the same athletes. Regarding the football team, other than that first year when Silsbee and Orangefield had a very competative game, it has not been close since. That first year, the Bobcats had a very fine football team and they really pushed a very good Tiger team to the limit. But, in the end, Silsbee's overall depth and team speed was the difference. These last two years, Silsbee was by far the more talented team and it showed. Two wins by at least 5 td's. This past season, that game really could have gotten ugly. Silsbee called the dogs off after the first half. In basketball, even though Orangefield has played a couple of games close with Silsbee, the lack of the real athletic presence on the floor shows. Silsbee has beaten these same Orangefield teams by 30 or more these last couple of seasons. What the basketball team has showed at times that doesn't seem to be on the football field, is that the skill and discipline level is higher. Is that coaching, or is that player dedication? It is easier for a player to buy into a system if it shows to be a winning system. I think it is hard for a school the size of Orangefield to excel in every sport. They just don't have the numbers or the "proper" athletes. I see Orangefield being something like HJ in that they are looking to try to be great in a sport and let the chips fall were they may in the others. I know that HJ has some athletes, but I was very, very disappointed in their lack of a track team, it was kind of embarassing. They did do well in football this season but IMO, that was because I thought after WOS and Silsbee, the district was down this year. Orangefield can get back to being competative on the football field, but one or two things must happen. They have to have their best athletes play football or they need to drop down in classification.
Wildcatter Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 I can tell that you have never gone to a basketball game during the summer. It is not unorganized as you say, in fact it is putting in the system that they will be using for the next several years. Most of the kids that play summer league are also in the gym or they are working with personal trainers because they are not getting what they need out of the weightlifting program. Again, start at the top and build a program that kids want to be a part of. Have you ever played any sports or just been a spectator?
AggiesAreWe Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 I can tell that you have never gone to a basketball game during the summer. It is not unorganized as you say, in fact it is putting in the system that they will be using for the next several years. Most of the kids that play summer league are also in the gym or they are working with personal trainers because they are not getting what they need out of the weightlifting program. Again, start at the top and build a program that kids want to be a part of. Have you ever played any sports or just been a spectator? Are you talking to me, Wildcatter?
AggiesAreWe Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 Mike an athlete : Yeah right...LOL In my day Gabe, in my day.
AggiesAreWe Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 The name Gabe Pruitt and the word "athlete" is an oxymoron, isn't it? ;D
WOSgrad Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 Mike could probably still outrun most of us. The Bobcats are one of the schools that would really benefit competitively from the split classification model that was proposed by the UIL. I'm not sure that it would cure their woes, but it would make them a lot easier to overcome. Note: This post does not mean that I support that model because I certainly do not.
AggiesAreWe Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 Mike could probably still outrun most of us. The Bobcats are one of the schools that would really benefit competitively from the split classification model that was proposed by the UIL. I'm not sure that it would cure their woes, but it would make them a lot easier to overcome. Note: This post does not mean that I support that model because I certainly do not. This is true, but it would hurt them financially with all that travel costs. In this day and time, everyone has to watch their pennies. I am definetly against that split classification! BTW Todd, I cannot remember the last time I ran to or from anything. ;D If it doesn't have wheels, then I walk.
Guest bleed orange Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 Mike an athlete : Yeah right...LOL I used to be a pretty fair athlete in my day also but now people look at me and say "What Happened?" ;D ;D ;D
catfever Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 BigNut, according to you the summer is the time to get ready for football. When would be the time to get ready for basketball. Not during football season certainly. Not after the season during baseball. That wouldn't make sense either. During the SUMMER. It is hard on small school athletes. They have to prepare for multiple sports, but the summer is not reserved for football. If you think the basketball coach doesn't emphasize weights then you have never met him. I have talked to him and weights are important in basketball as well. Your philosophy benefits only one team, the football team. I saw where someone earlier said something about you being AD. I know that your philosophy does not promote all sports and I would not want my kid playing for you. By the way, he does play multiple sports (including football), he does play summer league, he would play 7-on-7 (we don't have a team right now), and he will be at summer workouts on monday. That is what an athlete at OF has to do. As well has hold down a summer job in most cases. Yes, we do have athletes at OF, no we don't have as many as other schools, which means that they have to be better at specific skills, such as dribbling, shooting, hitting, catching, and lifting weights. Oh, by the way it was nice to meet you at the boil yesterday. You didn't seem as big of a jerk in person as on here.
Wildcatter Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 Bignut, I think I saw you playing basketball today, not setting a good example for the kids.
BigNutBuck Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 What? LOL! We have a wild goose chase going on here, don't we. I assume you are talking about the Fundrasier in Orangefield yesterday? Unforunately I had to work 10 hours, because I had Memorial day off. I wanted to go but didn't get home until 6:30. How did it go by the way. I'm still waiting for Eli Manning to autograph a helmet I bought 3 years ago for $900!!!!!!!!!! Can you help me with that bballgod? I also can't believe you think I'm a jerk, hurts my feelings. Wildcatter, I promise you didn't see me playing bball. I don't love it that much to spend a miserablly hot Sunday practicing layups. Instead of pretending to be Kobe I did yardwork instead, and watched Golf all day. Exciting day! You are right though, if and when I were to ever play a little basketball it wouldn't be a very good example, I'm not very good.
Guest Brubaker Posted May 31, 2009 Report Posted May 31, 2009 In general, SPECIALIZATION is killing many school athletic programs similar to Orangefield. Kids specialize in a single sport, when they could contribute very well in several sports... it's really a shame in my opinion. There is some small chance that the specialization will produce some post high school opportunity, but most of the time it's unlikely, highly unlikely. It's my opinion, that kids should look to contribute to as many sports as possible, especially in schools like OF, if for nothing else, school pride. Fact is that offseason football makes you tougher and stronger, physically and mentally like NO other sport. There are many kids shooting three pointers who could greatly benefit their basketball game, by nutting up and going through a football offseason program and contributing in the football program... that's just a fact. I think that more times than not, it's the cool confines of an air conditioned gym that decide what kids want to do. Football is a tough sport, it's not for everybody, and this generation just appears to not be willing to suck it up like generations past. We have slowly evolved from the great generations of WWII to where we are now. Some may take that as an exaggeration, but in my opinion, it's a cold hard fact, and it'll be hard to change my mind.
77 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 In general, SPECIALIZATION is killing many school athletic programs similar to Orangefield. Kids specialize in a single sport, when they could contribute very well in several sports... it's really a shame in my opinion. There is some small chance that the specialization will produce some post high school opportunity, but most of the time it's unlikely, highly unlikely. It's my opinion, that kids should look to contribute to as many sports as possible, especially in schools like OF, if for nothing else, school pride. Fact is that offseason football makes you tougher and stronger, physically and mentally like NO other sport. There are many kids shooting three pointers who could greatly benefit their basketball game, by nutting up and going through a football offseason program and contributing in the football program... that's just a fact. I think that more times than not, it's the cool confines of an air conditioned gym that decide what kids want to do. Football is a tough sport, it's not for everybody, and this generation just appears to not be willing to suck it up like generations past. We have slowly evolved from the great generations of WWII to where we are now. Some may take that as an exaggeration, but in my opinion, it's a cold hard fact, and it'll be hard to change my mind. I agree!
playdefense Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 any coach or parent that tells their athletes/child to specialize is nuts. playing multiple sports just makes you a better athlete. true some skills do not transfer, but you cannot argue with the fact that just the mere competition makes you better. hard to get the competition edge shooting in the gym or pitching in the bullpen. furthermore, any coach that is out there telling kids that if they specialize they have a better chance of getting a scholarship is just a flat out liar and he should be fired for detrimental behavior to the program. kids need to play and parents and coaches need to encourage them to play everything.
playdefense Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 by the way hw did we get to that topic on a thread about the orangefield job? this could be a good job. great support, kids work their tails off and play extremely hard, they act right (from what i have seen). the biggest issue here is getting quality assistants hired. cannot do it by yourself.
Guest nostradamus Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 You don't lift weights 3 days a week for 1 hour a day and get better. You dont get faster by running up and down the basketball court and stealing 2nd. You get faster by running track, going through the practices and competing in meets. I didn't read the rest of these posts but, I can see very easily where they are going. So...I will post below some FACTS about kids that lifted only TWO DAYS per week.......got stronger, faster, and better at basketball. Anyone that says you must lift more than 3 days a week to get stronger has NO CLUE what they are talking about. Check out the FACTS below: I just did a total on all of our off-season kids (which is 16 combining 9th and varsity class). Here is the scenario: We started lifting on March 26th. Today is May 21st.......so we basically lifted for 8 weeks. We lifted two days a week for a total of 1.5 hours per week. We spent the other 3 days in the gym working skills and scrimmaging. Below is a breakdown of all of our players and their gains on their MAX for each of the 3 main lifts and then the average gain on MAX for all players in that lift. This kind of puts to bed the argument that they need to lift 3 days per week and that basketball coaches don't know how to lift their kids. We used the Cedar Hill program. BENCH PRESS: Player 1: +15 lbs. 2: +25 lbs. 3: +20 lbs. 4: +10 lbs. 5: +25 6: +25 7: +10 8: +25 9: +10 10: +45 11: +10 12: +10 13: +20 14: + 25 15: +30 16: +25 AVERAGE MAX INCREASE FOR BENCH PRESS= 20.6 lbs. INCLINE PRESS 1: +10 2: +15 3: +10 4: +10 5: +25 6: +35 7: +20 8: +35 9: +10 10: +35 11: +30 12: +10 13: +20 14: +25 15: +20 16: +25 AVERAGE INCLINE PRESS MAX INCREASE= 20.9 lbs. SQUATS 1: +15 2: +25 3: +25 4: +20 5: +35 6: +25 7: +25 8: +55 9: +20 10: +65 11: DNP (knee injury) 12: +55 13: +55 14: +20 15: +25 16: +55 AVERAGE SQUAT MAX INCREASE= 34.6 lbs. Just proves you don't have to spend a lot of time in the weight room. It is all about efficiency and intensity.....especially when skill determines the winner in our sport most of the time.
Guest nostradamus Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 In general, SPECIALIZATION is killing many school athletic programs similar to Orangefield. Kids specialize in a single sport, when they could contribute very well in several sports... it's really a shame in my opinion. There is some small chance that the specialization will produce some post high school opportunity, but most of the time it's unlikely, highly unlikely. It's my opinion, that kids should look to contribute to as many sports as possible, especially in schools like OF, if for nothing else, school pride. Fact is that offseason football makes you tougher and stronger, physically and mentally like NO other sport. There are many kids shooting three pointers who could greatly benefit their basketball game, by nutting up and going through a football offseason program and contributing in the football program... that's just a fact. I think that more times than not, it's the cool confines of an air conditioned gym that decide what kids want to do. Football is a tough sport, it's not for everybody, and this generation just appears to not be willing to suck it up like generations past. We have slowly evolved from the great generations of WWII to where we are now. Some may take that as an exaggeration, but in my opinion, it's a cold hard fact, and it'll be hard to change my mind. Funny thing......we have football players (seniors) that come into our spring basketball off-season and can't make it through half the stuff we do. The above post is about as antiquated as you can possibly get. I only want kids playing for me that WANT to play. Strength is not found in numbers, strength is found in commitment. "Nut up"???? Seriously????? Are you going to tell me that a flat top, Bike coaching shorts, cardboard collared shirts, and chew is the only way to describe a "real coach" too?
Lazeek Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 In general, SPECIALIZATION is killing many school athletic programs similar to Orangefield. Kids specialize in a single sport, when they could contribute very well in several sports... it's really a shame in my opinion. There is some small chance that the specialization will produce some post high school opportunity, but most of the time it's unlikely, highly unlikely. It's my opinion, that kids should look to contribute to as many sports as possible, especially in schools like OF, if for nothing else, school pride. Fact is that offseason football makes you tougher and stronger, physically and mentally like NO other sport. There are many kids shooting three pointers who could greatly benefit their basketball game, by nutting up and going through a football offseason program and contributing in the football program... that's just a fact. I think that more times than not, it's the cool confines of an air conditioned gym that decide what kids want to do. Football is a tough sport, it's not for everybody, and this generation just appears to not be willing to suck it up like generations past. We have slowly evolved from the great generations of WWII to where we are now. Some may take that as an exaggeration, but in my opinion, it's a cold hard fact, and it'll be hard to change my mind. Funny thing......we have football players (seniors) that come into our spring basketball off-season and can't make it through half the stuff we do. The above post is about as antiquated as you can possibly get. I only want kids playing for me that WANT to play. Strength is not found in numbers, strength is found in commitment. "Nut up"???? Seriously????? Are you going to tell me that a flat top, Bike coaching shorts, cardboard collared shirts, and chew is the only way to describe a "real coach" too? Heck yes!!!!!!! :D
BigNutBuck Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 You show me a kid that gets stronger putting 1.5 hours a week into weight lifting and I'll show you a kid that at one point was pathetically weak. There is also a huge difference between football offseason and weight training and basketball offseason and weight training. You can't play football with basketball strength. You show me a football offseason that emphasizes 1.5 or 2 hours of weight lifting a week and then show me their record. The two don't compare. I understand that basketball takes strength and that basketball players need weights, but they can get by with much less than what a football player needs.
Guest nostradamus Posted June 1, 2009 Report Posted June 1, 2009 What is your point? Bottom line is the kids improved drastically. 16 kids was not enough of a variation for you?? I've done the same off-season workout with more than 30 kids and had the same results. Call Lufkin HS and see what they do IN FOOTBALL. Guess where they football program at Lufkin HS got their lifting workout from? You got it! The basketball coach and the program he uses in his basketball off-season (which is the exact same program we use in our off-season).....and guess what....their baseball program uses it too.
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