DEER IN SOUTHEAST TEXAS 13 INCH OR GREATER SPREAD

[tvc184]

That is a very poor angle to age a deer from. You don't get a good look at the neck and brisket, you can't see the face, a good shot at the belly, the back and the hind quarters.

At least 3.5 years old but the neck looks too developed from that angle but more likely in the 5.5-6.5 range.

[westend1]

[quote name="tvc184" post="1128350" timestamp="1322071797"]
That is a very poor angle to age a deer from. You don't get a good look at the neck and brisket, you can't see the face, a good shot at the belly, the back and the hind quarters.

At least 3.5 years old but the neck looks too developed from that angle but more likely in the 5.5-6.5 range.
[/quote]  I was thinking 4.  Doesn't seem real saggy in the belly,  It;s hard to judge on some of these deer.  I think you might be right.  He looks a little older in this pic.

http://s955.photobucket.com/albums/ae31/lock2040/?action=view&current=kbuck2.jpg

[injun]

Still waiting for all those "monster bucks" at the Moore Plantation this 13" rule was supposed to provide us.. There were a grand total of 3 weighed in at the check station
opening weekend off of 26000+ acres. One was 14" and one a 16" . Not sure of the third
Maybe it will take a few more years , this is only the 4th or maybe even the 5th year we have had this stupid law

[tvc184]

The "monster" bucks are also smarter which is how they get to be monsters. A 3.5 year old deer should be right at or greater than the 13" rule. That is the intent of the rule to let them grow up and not kill them at the typical 1.5 year old 4 or 6 point or basket rack 8 point at 2.5 years old.

If you put all buck fawns in a pen, in three years all of them will reach maturity or at least as far as the rule goes and each year after with a good growing season should be bigger up until maybe after the 7th year.

If the rule has been in place for 4 years, there are a bunch of deer that are now mature that would not have been. They did not disappear off of the earth at 3-5 year old. In fact there are a lot more of them now than there were 2 years ago.

A bad year because of the drought or inabiltiy to find them doesn't mean that they aren't out there or that the rule doesn't work. The 13" rule sure didn't make them shrink but yes the deer are smarter at that age and harder to hunt. The older ones don't come waltzing in like does or young bucks.

[westend1]

[quote name="injun" post="1133165" timestamp="1322440535"]
Still waiting for all those "monster bucks" at the Moore Plantation this 13" rule was supposed to provide us.. There were a grand total of 3 weighed in at the check station
opening weekend off of 26000+ acres. One was 14" and one a 16" . Not sure of the third
Maybe it will take a few more years , this is only the 4th or maybe even the 5th year we have had this stupid law
[/quote]  The "stupid rule" for your neighbors(2009) only went into effect two years ago.  Give it a little time.

[team first]

[quote name="injun" post="1133165" timestamp="1322440535"]
Still waiting for all those "monster bucks" at the Moore Plantation this 13" rule was supposed to provide us.. There were a grand total of 3 weighed in at the check station
opening weekend off of 26000+ acres. One was 14" and one a 16" . Not sure of the third
Maybe it will take a few more years , this is only the 4th or maybe even the 5th year we have had this stupid law
[/quote]
could not agree more

[injun]

[quote name="tvc184" post="1133263" timestamp="1322446557"]
The "monster" bucks are also smarter which is how they get to be monsters. A 3.5 year old deer should be right at or greater than the 13" rule. That is the intent of the rule to let them grow up and not kill them at the typical 1.5 year old 4 or 6 point or basket rack 8 point at 2.5 years old.

If you put all buck fawns in a pen, in three years all of them will reach maturity or at least as far as the rule goes and each year after with a good growing season should be bigger up until maybe after the 7th year.

If the rule has been in place for 4 years, there are a bunch of deer that are now mature that would not have been. They did not disappear off of the earth at 3-5 year old. In fact there are a lot more of them now than there were 2 years ago.

A bad year because of the drought or inabiltiy to find them doesn't mean that they aren't out there or that the rule doesn't work. The 13" rule sure didn't make them shrink but yes the deer are smarter at that age and harder to hunt. The older ones don't come waltzing in like does or young bucks.
[/quote]You have backed up the point I made in an earlier post. Older bucks equal smarter bucks and with 26000 acres to hide on we will see "VERY" few of these guys in Daylight hours

[rip2506]

[quote name="injun" post="1133165" timestamp="1322440535"]
Still waiting for all those "monster bucks" at the Moore Plantation this 13" rule was supposed to provide us.. There were a grand total of 3 weighed in at the check station
opening weekend off of 26000+ acres. One was 14" and one a 16" . Not sure of the third
Maybe it will take a few more years , this is only the 4th or maybe even the 5th year we have had this stupid law
[/quote]

We are 10 miles from the Moore and it was very slow for us opening weekend as well. I had a friend (ex pres.. of our lease) that after the first week or so he would hunt the Moore exclusively.. He loved the place as well as another member we have.  I have not been out there since 07

Now my cousin on the other hand who hunts in Colmesneil said they have harvest some monsters this year as well some other folks in Corrigan.  The Corrigan guys have been doing the management thing for 20 plus years... it works.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="rip2506" post="1133819" timestamp="1322516248"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg1133165#msg1133165 date=1322440535]
Still waiting for all those "monster bucks" at the Moore Plantation this 13" rule was supposed to provide us.. There were a grand total of 3 weighed in at the check station
opening weekend off of 26000+ acres. One was 14" and one a 16" . Not sure of the third
Maybe it will take a few more years , this is only the 4th or maybe even the 5th year we have had this stupid law
[/quote]

We are 10 miles from the Moore and it was very slow for us opening weekend as well. I had a friend (ex pres.. of our lease) that after the first week or so he would hunt the Moore exclusively.. He loved the place as well as another member we have.  I have not been out there since 07

[b]Now my cousin on the other hand who hunts in Colmesneil said they have harvest some monsters this year as well some other folks in Corrigan.  The Corrigan guys have been doing the management thing for 20 plus years... it works.[/b][/quote]

And I'm sure their management program in years past included killing older deer that had less than 13" spread so they could't continue to breed.  That's where the 13" rule is flawed...in East Texas the deer have relatively low protien browse most of the year and some deer will never reach 13".

That's why I say let the clubs and private landowners manage their herd their way...if they don't want to manage for trophy deer, so what.

But, oh well, we're stuck with the 13" rule that is not producing these amazing results as advertised!

[tvc184]

When people start showing me trail cam or hand taken pictures of 4-5 year old deer that are 150+ pounds, thick neck, large hindquarters, etc., and are consistently less than 13", I will believe that it doesn't work.

I was in south Texas two years ago at a bowhunting only day lease and a guy from east Texas killed a 1.5 year old basket rack and pencil horned 8 point. The deer still had perfect teeth with a very thin neck and was obviously a very young deer. The guy had to pay a $500 fine for the underage deer. He swore and was angry that his "mature" deer was an old deer and he had been hunting for umpteen years and could age them and this was obviously a mature blah blah blah.

I'll bet that he would be glad to tell you that it was a prime example of mature deer that just won't make the 13" rule. The only thing that it is a prime example of is that he can't age deer on the hoof or even dead for that matter.

The 13" is not perfect but the old rule of shooting anything that moved was hardly effective. In lieu of a better way to judge mature deer, the 13" rule is the easiest to visually see and enforce. The obvious best answer is for all hunters to do right thing while managing a deer herd. Can anyone venture to guess what the compliance rate for killing mature deer would be if it is left up to hunters? I think the truth that we routinely kill baby 4 pointers should quickly answer that question.

[westend1]

I read an article from Texas Parks guys who helped frame the new law.  They did studies, and only 4% of 3 1/2 year old deer had racks less than 13".  Of those deer, most had unforked racks their first year(shooters).  Thus, almost every deer you see will be a shooter at some point in it's life.  Here is a small portion of the article:

For those wondering why, take a look at the response from Texas Parks and Wildlife Department after a regular reader of this site recommended a point-based antler regulation:

    “I appreciate your comments. One thing this is unique about the Texas antler restriction regulation is that it is designed to eliminate the risk of high-grading bucks. Point restrictions certainly could result in high grading. For example, a rule allowing only bucks with 4 points on a side to be killed is allowing for the harvest of the best yearlings and protection of the poorest-quality yearlings. The reason for this is that there is no correlation between age and number of points.

    However, there is a very strong correlation between age and inside spread. That’s one reason why we went with the spread restriction. Another unique aspect of the Texas model is the “slot limit” (i.e., it allows for the harvest of deer with at least one unbranched antler) — further reducing the risk of high grading. Nonetheless, this regulation does indeed protect some mature bucks with narrow spreads, which is an unintended consequence.

    But the good news is that only 4 percent of all mature bucks in these Resource Management Units (RMUs) have an inside spread less than 13″ wide (based on data from thousands of harvested bucks). And long-term research has shown us that the bucks with at least one unbranched antler are more likely to be those narrow-racked bucks at maturity. So it would behoove hunters to take advantage of that second buck tag (for spikes and 3-pointers).”

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="tvc184" post="1133924" timestamp="1322523895"]
When people start showing me trail cam or hand taken pictures of 4-5 year old deer that are 150+ pounds, thick neck, large hindquarters, etc., and are consistently less than 13", I will believe that it doesn't work.

I was in south Texas two years ago at a bowhunting only day lease and a guy from east Texas killed a 1.5 year old basket rack and pencil horned 8 point. The deer still had perfect teeth with a very thin neck and was obviously a very young deer. The guy had to pay a $500 fine for the underage deer. He swore and was angry that his "mature" deer was an old deer and he had been hunting for umpteen years and could age them and this was obviously a mature blah blah blah.

I'll bet that he would be glad to tell you that it was a prime example of mature deer that just won't make the 13" rule. The only thing that it is a prime example of is that he can't age deer on the hoof or even dead for that matter.

The 13" is not perfect but the old rule of shooting anything that moved was hardly effective. In lieu of a better way to judge mature deer, the 13" rule is the easiest to visually see and enforce. The obvious best answer is for all hunters to do right thing while managing a deer herd. Can anyone venture to guess what the compliance rate for killing mature deer would be if it is left up to hunters? I think the truth that we routinely kill baby 4 pointers should quickly answer that question.
[/quote]

I have had to pass on 3 deer this year alone that needed to be culled...these deer will never be removed unless someone breaks the law.

I would rather be able to make that choice myself...it's a problem not to allow for culls.

I notice you want proof that it doesn't work...I want proof that this rule alone does work!

[westend1]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="1133980" timestamp="1322526838"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg1133924#msg1133924 date=1322523895]
When people start showing me trail cam or hand taken pictures of 4-5 year old deer that are 150+ pounds, thick neck, large hindquarters, etc., and are consistently less than 13", I will believe that it doesn't work.

I was in south Texas two years ago at a bowhunting only day lease and a guy from east Texas killed a 1.5 year old basket rack and pencil horned 8 point. The deer still had perfect teeth with a very thin neck and was obviously a very young deer. The guy had to pay a $500 fine for the underage deer. He swore and was angry that his "mature" deer was an old deer and he had been hunting for umpteen years and could age them and this was obviously a mature blah blah blah.

I'll bet that he would be glad to tell you that it was a prime example of mature deer that just won't make the 13" rule. The only thing that it is a prime example of is that he can't age deer on the hoof or even dead for that matter.

The 13" is not perfect but the old rule of shooting anything that moved was hardly effective. In lieu of a better way to judge mature deer, the 13" rule is the easiest to visually see and enforce. The obvious best answer is for all hunters to do right thing while managing a deer herd. Can anyone venture to guess what the compliance rate for killing mature deer would be if it is left up to hunters? I think the truth that we routinely kill baby 4 pointers should quickly answer that question.
[/quote]

I have had to pass on 3 deer this year alone that needed to be culled...these deer will never be removed unless someone breaks the law.

I would rather be able to make that choice myself...it's a problem not to allow for culls.

I notice you want proof that it doesn't work...I want proof that this rule alone does work!
[/quote]  Show us some pics of these deer that you passed on.  I'll be truly surprised if they were really mature cull bucks.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="westend1" post="1134000" timestamp="1322528217"]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg1133980#msg1133980 date=1322526838]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg1133924#msg1133924 date=1322523895]
When people start showing me trail cam or hand taken pictures of 4-5 year old deer that are 150+ pounds, thick neck, large hindquarters, etc., and are consistently less than 13", I will believe that it doesn't work.

I was in south Texas two years ago at a bowhunting only day lease and a guy from east Texas killed a 1.5 year old basket rack and pencil horned 8 point. The deer still had perfect teeth with a very thin neck and was obviously a very young deer. The guy had to pay a $500 fine for the underage deer. He swore and was angry that his "mature" deer was an old deer and he had been hunting for umpteen years and could age them and this was obviously a mature blah blah blah.

I'll bet that he would be glad to tell you that it was a prime example of mature deer that just won't make the 13" rule. The only thing that it is a prime example of is that he can't age deer on the hoof or even dead for that matter.

The 13" is not perfect but the old rule of shooting anything that moved was hardly effective. In lieu of a better way to judge mature deer, the 13" rule is the easiest to visually see and enforce. The obvious best answer is for all hunters to do right thing while managing a deer herd. Can anyone venture to guess what the compliance rate for killing mature deer would be if it is left up to hunters? I think the truth that we routinely kill baby 4 pointers should quickly answer that question.
[/quote]

I have had to pass on 3 deer this year alone that needed to be culled...these deer will never be removed unless someone breaks the law.

I would rather be able to make that choice myself...it's a problem not to allow for culls.

I notice you want proof that it doesn't work...I want proof that this rule alone does work!
[/quote]  Show us some pics of these deer that you passed on.  I'll be truly surprised if they were really mature cull bucks.
[/quote]

No pics...I saw them on stand(1 before season start, 2 after)...sorry I couldn't surprise you!  I know what a cull deer is and I know how to age them.  Two of them were heavy four points and the other was a six with no brow tines...deer that any managed lease would want gone!

[westend1]

How many shooters have you seen?  If you haven't seen any, it sounds like your lease had some crappy management before the 13" rule went into effect.  Were they shooting all the young bucks that had potential?

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="westend1" post="1134023" timestamp="1322529870"]
How many shooters have you seen?  If you haven't seen any, it sounds like your lease had some crappy management before the 13" rule went into effect.  Were they shooting all the young bucks that had potential?
[/quote]

I've seen two shooters while hunting but no shot (bowhunting only).  The area is typical for East Texas...some good deer and some inferior deer.  I hunt on a small piece of acreage that I own and also on Type II. 

Do you even hunt in East Texas where this rule effects you?

[westend1]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="1134027" timestamp="1322530463"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg1134023#msg1134023 date=1322529870]
How many shooters have you seen?  If you haven't seen any, it sounds like your lease had some crappy management before the 13" rule went into effect.  Were they shooting all the young bucks that had potential?
[/quote]

I've seen two shooters while hunting but no shot (bowhunting only).  The area is typical for East Texas...some good deer and some inferior deer.  I hunt on a small piece of acreage that I own and also on Type II. 

Do you even hunt in East Texas where this rule effects you?
[/quote]  Only when I get invited to a friend's place.  But I am looking forward to getting back closer to home.  I am hoping that this rule improves the local hunting so I dont have to drive 6 hours for decent hunting.

[ST413]

I personally get a little frustrated at times with this rule.  Only because on my stand it is hard to get enough time to judge the deer.  I am pleased with the effects however so even though I get frustrated at times I do like the rule.  I have seen evidence this year that it seems to be working.  This year I have pics of two shooters and a possible third,  in the past on this stand I can't remember any that would be for sure shooters based on width.  I still wish there was a feasible way to have an exception to the rule,  for bucks that definitely don't need to be left in the breeding pool such as one I killed several years ago.  I have posted the pics before but for some of you who haven't seen it it is the one in the first two pics here:    http://deerlease1.shutterfly.com/pictures/8

[westend1]

I think he is a cool looking deer.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind having a few freaks like him running around.  More interesting than a regular old eight point.  I bet you were excited to get him.

[ST413]

[quote name="westend1" post="1134105" timestamp="1322536199"]
I think he is a cool looking deer.  Honestly, I wouldn't mind having a few freaks like him running around.  More interesting than a regular old eight point.  I bet you were excited to get him.
[/quote]
Definitely more interesting but still wouldn't want his genetics to take over .  After all if his offspring end up with racks like him all you would ever be able to do is look at them while harvesting the typical racks.  Now granted I don't care about ever killing enough of those typicals to truly hurt their numbers,  if you can not take any like this one and continue to harvest the typicals which one is eventually going to become the norm in your area?

[rip2506]

[quote name="tvc184" post="1133924" timestamp="1322523895"]
When people start showing me trail cam or hand taken pictures of 4-5 year old deer that are 150+ pounds, thick neck, large hindquarters, etc., and are consistently less than 13", I will believe that it doesn't work.

I was in south Texas two years ago at a bowhunting only day lease and a guy from east Texas killed a 1.5 year old basket rack and pencil horned 8 point. The deer still had perfect teeth with a very thin neck and was obviously a very young deer. The guy had to pay a $500 fine for the underage deer. He swore and was angry that his "mature" deer was an old deer and he had been hunting for umpteen years and could age them and this was obviously a mature blah blah blah.

I'll bet that he would be glad to tell you that it was a prime example of mature deer that just won't make the 13" rule. The only thing that it is a prime example of is that he can't age deer on the hoof or even dead for that matter.

The 13" is not perfect but the old rule of shooting anything that moved was hardly effective. In lieu of a better way to judge mature deer, the 13" rule is the easiest to visually see and enforce. The obvious best answer is for all hunters to do right thing while managing a deer herd. Can anyone venture to guess what the compliance rate for killing mature deer would be if it is left up to hunters? I think the truth that we routinely kill baby 4 pointers should quickly answer that question.
[/quote]

I like the 13 rule because it absolutely puts off the killing of 1.5 4pts and some 2.5 year 8pts that are just not there yet.. if you buy a trail cam or two as I have done the past year and review these pictures often you will see many deer that the rule is protecting... and that is a good thing.. I know I have received a very good education by this method.

I love eating deer... but I have to be honest I want to kill larger mature bucks !  If you have to kill something for food.. there are still plenty of un-branched deer running around.

[rip2506]

:)
You have to back arrow to get to pic 2..
Picture 2 is a good depiction of a 1.5, 2.5 and a mature deer

In picture 5  which deer do you want to shoot.... the young buck is being protected and I can not say it enough.. I like It!

pic 6... you do not think being a love machine is hard on a brotha... look how much weight he has lost.... looks like a greyhound

pic 7  this is the same deer!

pic 10  I ask again.... which deer do you want to shoot!!!!! NO BRAINER


Hey folks this has been a brown it's down lease for the past 30 years and look at us now after what 2 years... C'mon Man!


Truth be told non of these deer have been harvested this year.. older deer are harder to kill.. but it keeps me wanted to hunt because I know they are out there.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa357/rip2506/?action=view&current=Deerpictures9-7-9-15-2011380.jpg&jwidget_action=album

[The Real McCoy 12]

[quote name="rip2506" post="1136660" timestamp="1322774966"]
:)
You have to back arrow to get to pic 2..
Picture 2 is a good depiction of a 1.5, 2.5 and a mature deer

In picture 5  which deer do you want to shoot.... the young buck is being protected and I can not say it enough.. I like It!

pic 6... you do not think being a love machine is hard on a brotha... look how much weight he has lost.... looks like a greyhound

pic 7  this is the same deer!

pic 10  I ask again.... which deer do you want to shoot!!!!! NO BRAINER


Hey folks this has been a brown it's down lease for the past 30 years and look at us now after what 2 years... C'mon Man!


Truth be told non of these deer have been harvested this year.. older deer are harder to kill.. but it keeps me wanted to hunt because I know they are out there.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa357/rip2506/?action=view&current=Deerpictures9-7-9-15-2011380.jpg&jwidget_action=album
[/quote] i agree the bigger the deer the harder to kill but when you can look at pics and know they are still there makes it alot easier to wake up and get to the woods cause you just never know when ole big is going to step out