DEER IN SOUTHEAST TEXAS 13 INCH OR GREATER SPREAD

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[Bucof2010]

3 yrs and youlls minds will be changed.

[tvc184]

3 yrs and youlls minds will be changed.

Not my mind. We went to managing our lease informally (not through the state or an owner) about 4 years ago by only killing 3.5 and older bucks and shooting lots of does. We are not seeing very large bucks and some in the 140 class. Last year our biggest taken with a rifle was 138 inches.

Nope, I won't be surprised.

[Bucof2010]

3 yrs and youlls minds will be changed.

Not my mind. We went to managing our lease informally (not through the state or an owner) about 4 years ago by only killing 3.5 and older bucks and shooting lots of does. We are not seeing very large bucks and some in the 140 class. Last year our biggest taken with a rifle was 138 inches.

Nope, I won't be surprised.

Yes but now everyone will be doing it

[tvc184]

3 yrs and youlls minds will be changed.

Not my mind. We went to managing our lease informally (not through the state or an owner) about 4 years ago by only killing 3.5 and older bucks and shooting lots of does. We are not seeing very large bucks and some in the 140 class. Last year our biggest taken with a rifle was 138 inches.

Nope, I won't be surprised.

Yes but now everyone will be doing it

Yep. The antler restrictions were started several years ago in the coastal plains counties where they have notoriously small deer. I think it was started with 8 couties. As you can imagine, there were huge protests. Within about three years, the naysayers were shocked at the growth of the deer. It wasn't the area or the forage they had but the fact that almost none lived more than 1.5 years. Some of the people that protested where now proponents. Then it expanded a few counties but still in the corridor from around Corpus Christi toward San Antonio (just north of the famed Texas brush country or the Golden Triangle of deer hunting).

Then it moved to east Texas and has been slowly expanding. Once I found out about the program and its success in south central Texas, I was hoping that it would come our way. It took a few years but it has finally arrived. I just hope that a majority of the people try to stay within the law and let it work.

Again, it is not a perfect solution but I can't believe anything other than it will help.

[Bucof2010]

3 yrs and youlls minds will be changed.

Not my mind. We went to managing our lease informally (not through the state or an owner) about 4 years ago by only killing 3.5 and older bucks and shooting lots of does. We are not seeing very large bucks and some in the 140 class. Last year our biggest taken with a rifle was 138 inches.

Nope, I won't be surprised.

Yes but now everyone will be doing it

Yep. The antler restrictions were started several years ago in the coastal plains counties where they have notoriously small deer. I think it was started with 8 couties. As you can imagine, there were huge protests. Within about three years, the naysayers were shocked at the growth of the deer. It wasn't the area or the forage they had but the fact that almost none lived more than 1.5 years. Some of the people that protested where now proponents. Then it expanded a few counties but still in the corridor from around Corpus Christi toward San Antonio (just north of the famed Texas brush country or the Golden Triangle of deer hunting).

Then it moved to east Texas and has been slowly expanding. Once I found out about the program and its success in south central Texas, I was hoping that it would come our way. It took a few years but it has finally arrived. I just hope that a majority of the people try to stay within the law and let it work.

Again, it is not a perfect solution but I can't believe anything other than it will help.

I thought on your first post you were saying you didnt like it

[tvc184]

I thought on your first post you were saying you didnt like it

Nope.

When you made the statement that "3 years and your minds will be changed", I figured that you were thinking that in 3 years the deer would finally be bigger with the new restrictions. I was agreeing with your statement by saying that I believe in it now and won't have to wait.

So have I missed your intent?

[Bucof2010]

[quote name="tvc184" post="682325" timestamp="1256151032"]
[quote author=Bucof2010 link=topic=61122.msg682212#msg682212 date=1256143509]

I thought on your first post you were saying you didnt like it
[/quote]

Nope.

When you made the statement that "3 years and your minds will be changed", I figured that you were thinking that in 3 years the deer would finally be bigger with the new restrictions. I was agreeing with your statement by saying that I believe in it now and won't have to wait.

So have I missed your intent?
[/quote]

Nope nailed it

[injun]

I don't like it

[injun]

Place I hunt has had it for 3-4 years..Still see very few big ones...3 and 4 year old deer
are much smarter than 2 year olds..Everyone knows  smarter deer means less daylight sightings

[pngfan1]

Believe me I have seen many deer less than 13" spread that was mature in South and West Texas. But, its the best the state can do to protect young bucks, which happens to be why East Texas is so far behind rest of the state. Years and years of killing 2.5 year old bucks. There are much better management plans but it is better than nothing and East Texas should see improvement, if the game Wardens can enforce it effectively. Enforcing any law in east Texas is a challenge. Good luck though, I will continue my 6 hour drive. Pressure is a problem in East Texas also. Too many hunters on most places for acreage. That is why East Texas deer are so fast to go nocturnal. I hunt 5 people on 3000 acres on my South Texas place and 4 on 2000 in West Texas.

[tvc184]

[quote name="pngfan1" post="740566" timestamp="1262960800"]
Believe me I have seen many deer less than 13" spread that was mature in South and West Texas. But, its the best the state can do to protect young bucks, which happens to be why East Texas is so far behind rest of the state. Years and years of killing 2.5 year old bucks. There are much better management plans but it is better than nothing and East Texas should see improvement, if the game Wardens can enforce it effectively. Enforcing any law in east Texas is a challenge. Good luck though, I will continue my 6 hour drive. Pressure is a problem in East Texas also. Too many hunters on most places for acreage. That is why East Texas deer are so fast to go nocturnal. I hunt 5 people on 3000 acres on my South Texas place and 4 on 2000 in West Texas.
[/quote]

At 3,000 acres in east Texas you would typically have 25-30 hunters.

The problem with east Texas that is completely unlike most of the rest of Texas is that people live there. Most of west and south Texas are uninhabited. There is hardly any land in east Texas that doesn't have someone living within half a mile or less. I have hunted a couple of south Texas ranches and it is miles and miles between cities or any communities. There isn't as much problem with poachers because most people don't want to drive for a couple of hours or more to kill a deer illegally. It is so much easier when you can sneak onto the lease or public land that is 400 yards away.

There is also the money issue. While the cost per acre leased is not really much (if any) different, in east Texas they keep the cost down by stacking hunters. A typical east Texas lease runs about $500-$1,000. That is for maybe 100-150 acres per hunter. A south or west Texas lease might run $1,500-$5,000 per gun but you get 300-600 acres per hunter. The people that hunt south Texas do so because they can afford to hunt there. Most east Texas hunters don't have the option to pay $5,000 per gun because they simply don't have it. I hunt on a lease for $700 a year and have had people drop off because they can't get the money together to hunt it. Some that do hunt on it do so because they can't afford to hunt anywhere else. Half of the complaints on the new antler restrictions is the fact that many believe that it will cause the lease prices to match other parts of the state. That will price a lot of them out of hunting or either turn some into poachers or hunt on the overcrowded public land.

East Texas could grow a deer herd that rivals west and south Texas if it was managed. The antler restrictions are a good start but if lease prices go up much, it will just compound the poacher problems.

[pngfan1]

I understand and agree with everything you said. I don't know what the timber companies are doing as of late, but according to the TPWD Biologist on our lease in West Texas there is a lot of ranchers that were looking for hunters this past season. The economy caused a lot of people to drop leases. Hopefully the timber companies will hold steady and avoid the greed or like you said the poaching problem they have now will be nothing like it can get. I don't know what they are getting now but heard a few years ago they were increasing more than usual each year because they thought they could get more in line with the price per acre that the rest of the state is getting.

[tvc184]

I am sure they will go up to what the market can take. Out of the thousands of people on east Texas leases, I don't know how many of them are ready to pony up an additional $2,000 or more. Like I mentioned, the price per acre is not much different than in other areas anyway and the cost is offset by more hunters on the same amount of land.

Like those in the west and south, I think the land owners/companies can price themselves out of the market, especially in the slow economy. When we have people that are already having a hard time with $700..........

[bullets13]

my only complaint with the spread law is the inability to take cull bucks.  the lease i'm on has been managed pretty well the last few years, and there were at least 5 or 6 really nice bucks running on the place (compared to 1 or 2 in years past), although we only took one of them.  i did, however, have about 5 chances to shoot one of 3 or 4 bucks we have on the lease that have 4 nice points on one side and just have a little crab claw on the other side.  technically, they're not a spike, but they need to be taken out of circulation.  i think that will be as big of a problem as anything else... people taking illegal cull deer.  it seems to me a game warden ought to be given a little discretion when it comes to cull deer, rather than setting it in black and white.  i know that could cause problems, but it doesn't make me feel any better when i'm sitting in the stand looking at a buck with a jacked up rack that i not only can't shoot, but also know it will possibly be reproducing more cull bucks.

[tvc184]

The part about not taking culls is a problem but we are paying the price for a lot of other east Texas hunters. Even on here you have people that want to be able to shoot anything that moves and believe they have the right to do so.

We have limits on fishing by size and now we have the same on deer. It is our own collective fault.

I think it will still work in the long run.

[BearBryant]

I still dont know a soul other than outlaws that shoots anything that moves. 

[tvc184]

[quote name="bearbryant" post="742005" timestamp="1263176339"]
I still dont know a soul other than outlaws that shoots anything that moves. 
[/quote]

I know some. They shoot what was legal deer last year such as 1.5 year old 4 and 6 pointers. Completely legal deer but haven't been allowed to mature at all. If it's brown, it's down.

This year the east Texas restrictions made it illegal but before then, a deer was a deer was a deer and age or size didn't matter. That is what I am talking about and that constitutes a large percentage of even legal hunters.

[BearBryant]

Well I disagree with you on that.  I've let many many small 8pt walk along with 4pts and 6pts through the years.  I've also taken 1.5 year old 6pts and ain't ashamed to admit it.  I'm a hunter not a trophy hunter.  

I've been able to kill 8 bucks year for the last several years and could have yet usually take 2 bucks between me, my two boys, and my wife... all hunters.

Still I'm embracing the 13 inch rule.. I got enough hunters in my family that there is no possible way I can't end up with 5-6 deer every year.  Now if they make the spikes illegal I'd be in a bind.

[tvc184]

[quote name="bearbryant" post="742425" timestamp="1263262168"]
Well I disagree with you on that.  I've let many many small 8pt walk along with 4pts and 6pts through the years.  I've also taken 1.5 year old 6pts and ain't ashamed to admit it.  I'm a hunter not a trophy hunter.  

I've been able to kill 8 bucks year for the last several years and could have yet usually take 2 bucks between me, my two boys, and my wife... all hunters.

Still I'm embracing the 13 inch rule.. I got enough hunters in my family that there is no possible way I can't end up with 5-6 deer every year.  Now if they make the spikes illegal I'd be in a bind.
[/quote]

You say that you disagree and then say that you have taken 1.5 year old 6 points. That was exactly what I was saying. Passing some doesn't change that fact.

I am all for legal hunting and what you were doing was legal. I am just glad that the state has now finally stepped in to manage the land as I think the hunters should have all along. Within a couple of years, the same deer that are being shot now at a 6 point will be heavier 8 pointers or better.

[bronco1]

[quote name="bullets13" post="741848" timestamp="1263164313"]
my only complaint with the spread law is the inability to take cull bucks.[/quote]

That is a problem but with a little time I believe TPWD will address that issue. We have a really good fish and game dept. but it's not flawless.
As the public gets more comfortable with the antler restrictions, they will eventually include a cull buck.

[BearBryant]

[quote name="tvc184" post="742514" timestamp="1263271371"]
[quote author=bearbryant link=topic=61122.msg742425#msg742425 date=1263262168]
Well I disagree with you on that.  I've let many many small 8pt walk along with 4pts and 6pts through the years.  I've also taken 1.5 year old 6pts and ain't ashamed to admit it.  I'm a hunter not a trophy hunter.  

I've been able to kill 8 bucks year for the last several years and could have yet usually take 2 bucks between me, my two boys, and my wife... all hunters.

Still I'm embracing the 13 inch rule.. I got enough hunters in my family that there is no possible way I can't end up with 5-6 deer every year.  Now if they make the spikes illegal I'd be in a bind.
[/quote]

You say that you disagree and then say that you have taken 1.5 year old 6 points. That was exactly what I was saying. Passing some doesn't change that fact.

I am all for legal hunting and what you were doing was legal. I am just glad that the state has now finally stepped in to manage the land as I think the hunters should have all along. Within a couple of years, the same deer that are being shot now at a 6 point will be heavier 8 pointers or better.
[/quote]

The point I was making was that I was not a "shoot anything that moves" hunter.  And as i said I'm giving the 13 inch rule time to work.

[tvc184]

[quote name="bearbryant" post="742851" timestamp="1263339365"]

The point I was making was that I was not a "shoot anything that moves" hunter.  And as i said I'm giving the 13 inch rule time to work.
[/quote]

But for every ethical hunter in this area there are others to match that aren't. I don't see how anyone can deny that east Texas has a problem with people killing very young deer that generally doesn't happen in other parts of the state.

[tvc184]

[quote name="bronco1" post="742676" timestamp="1263319012"]

That is a problem but with a little time I believe TPWD will address that issue. We have a really good fish and game dept. but it's not flawless.
As the public gets more comfortable with the antler restrictions, they will eventually include a cull buck.
[/quote]

The AR's have been in place for several years. I wonder when they are going to get around to it on allowing some means of taking culls.

[bronco1]

[quote name="tvc184" post="743072" timestamp="1263360108"]
[quote author=bronco1 link=topic=61122.msg742676#msg742676 date=1263319012]

That is a problem but with a little time I believe TPWD will address that issue. We have a really good fish and game dept. but it's not flawless.
As the public gets more comfortable with the antler restrictions, they will eventually include a cull buck.
[/quote]

The AR's have been in place for several years. I wonder when they are going to get around to it on allowing some means of taking culls.
[/quote]

The sooner the better, not sure when but I know it is an issue they will have to address. Once you have more and better breeding stock, you have to cull the less desireable deer to produce the best herd.