DEER IN SOUTHEAST TEXAS 13 INCH OR GREATER SPREAD

[bronco1]

I assked the question about culls on the TPWD website, here is the link:

https://www2.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/webcomment/?p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpwd.state.tx.us%2Fregulations%2Findex.phtml

[tvc184]

[quote name="bronco1" post="743554" timestamp="1263425736"]


The sooner the better, not sure when but I know it is an issue they will have to address. Once you have more and better breeding stock, you have to cull the less desireable deer to produce the best herd.
[/quote]

How do you come up with a rule to enforce culls though? Simply state "age" as the factor and educate the public? Hope that most hunters can age deer on the hoof?

The only thing about the spike or 13" rules is that you can look at an easy measurable standard. Just like a fish, you can bring out the tape measure and see if it is correct. There is easily visual certainty of the kill. They go with the 13" rule simply because of the width of the ears as a guide.

As far as killing culls to improve the herd, I won't disagree with that but we have always been able to kill all the culls we wanted (with the proper number of tags) and yet we still have lots of them roaming the woods. With hundreds of years of hunting with no restrictions, we don't seem to have done a very good job of insuring good genetic deer. I think much of that comes from the kill any buck mentality that many people (Many bearbryant, not "all").

I think that if we kill enough does (buck to doe ratio) and let deer mature as they should, nature will take care of itself somewhat. When there aren't 7 does per every buck then the dominant bucks will do most of the breeding. As it is now (especially on public land) with does not being killed, one dominant buck in an area can't breed or protect all of the does. We have lots of inferior bucks breeding does that would otherwise not get to.

I'm all for killing culls.... I am just not sure how they are going to do it or if they are ever going to do it.

[tvc184]

[quote name="bronco1" post="743558" timestamp="1263426541"]
I assked the question about culls on the TPWD website, here is the link:

https://www2.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/webcomment/?p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpwd.state.tx.us%2Fregulations%2Findex.phtml
[/quote]

Are they going to respond to you directly?

[bronco1]

[quote name="tvc184" post="743609" timestamp="1263435501"]
[quote author=bronco1 link=topic=61122.msg743558#msg743558 date=1263426541]
I assked the question about culls on the TPWD website, here is the link:

https://www2.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/feedback/webcomment/?p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tpwd.state.tx.us%2Fregulations%2Findex.phtml
[/quote]

Are they going to respond to you directly?
[/quote]

They repsonded here is what I asked.

[u][b]Question[/b][/u]
First of all I would like to say that I am a proponent of the Antler restrictions laws and have seen proof of their effectivness. One thing that concerns me is that along with the good affects also comes some adverse affects. Deer that don't meet the antler requirements or the current cull requirements are doing better as well. I guess my real question is, does TPWD plan to address the definition of cull deer? Currently a cull has to have one unbranched antler but we see many deer with uneven racks or "crab claws". I know that opening these regulations could cause problems with defining a cull. I am just curious if this will ever be addressed and could the cull defintions change?

[u][b]Answer[/b][/u]
From: "hunt" <[email protected]>
Date: January 14, 2010 7:22:37 AM CST
Subject: RE: Web Site - E-MAIL REPLY REQUESTED - Wildlife Management

[i]As you stated, allowing hunters to take 'cull bucks' even IF we were to
implement a definition, there would be and hunters would take it upon
themselves to 'read something into that definition' as they already do
with the Antler Restrictions thus creating more problems overall.  Not
all hunters and the majority of them are unable to distinguish exactly
what a true cull buck much less as determine age of a deer on the hoof.

Uneven racked bucks can attain greater inside spread growth with
management if the landowner chooses to implement it over time, but it is
up to them to offer that to the deer to increase their overall potential
for the bucks with uneven racks.  However, the bucks that are being seen
with such traits may never be legal due to what has taken place before
the Antler Restrictions were implemented where any buck could be taken
thus taking out good, favorable genetic-strain bucks at an early age
only to leave the undesirable bucks to pass on those traits.  It will be
bred out in time though.[/i]

[westend1]

Good answer.  Ideally, under high fence, you would shoot those, but I don't believe it will hurt the herd much to have a few 4 year old, bucks running around with weird racks.  Most will get to be 13" one day, and they can legally be taken then.  They may never be trophies, but they will make better targets than shooting them at age 1 1/2.  JMO

[bronco1]

[quote name="westend1" post="743740" timestamp="1263481135"]
Good answer.  Ideally, under high fence, you would shoot those, but I don't believe it will hurt the herd much to have a few 4 year old, bucks running around with weird racks.  Most will get to be 13" one day, and they can legally be taken then.  They may never be trophies, but they will make better targets than shooting them at age 1 1/2.   JMO
[/quote]

I agree too. If we could count on people to "do the right thing" we wouldn't need the restrictions we have now. I think something could be done but it opens a big can of worms.

[tvc184]

So they said basically what I did.

Some herds are weak due to killing good genetic bucks at a young age, it is hard to come up with any standards on cull/age of bucks and the better genetics will win over time (if enough does are killed) (if we let the herd get more than one year old).

[bullets13]

of course, if you want to trophy hunt, you better hope that you're in a 2 or 3 buck county if you're going to take legal culls. 

[BearBryant]

[quote name="tvc184" post="743816" timestamp="1263486762"]
So they said basically what I did.

Some herds are weak due to killing good genetic bucks at a young age, it is hard to come up with any standards on cull/age of bucks and the better genetics will win over time (if enough does are killed) (if we let the herd get more than one year old).
[/quote]

Like I said .. I've embraced the 13inch rule... If someone wants to get around it then its simple..  Take a hammer and knock the horns off.. I've already heard about people doing it.  I don't want one that bad.  With me and my two boys hunting I can get enough spikes and does to fill my freezer and I'm sure next year I'll see better bucks.  I already let 5 bucks walk this year because of the new restrictions.  didn't bother me a bit.. My little 8 year old wasn't happy about it though .LOL

Part of the reason why I would shoot a 6pt or something would be that it was in December and I hadn't killed anything.  Knowing that the deer would get killed by the next hunter I would shoot him.  Now that won't happen.  One thing I do wish was that the state would open up doe season to the entire season.  I've gotten burned many times because I waited too late and then I guess the deer got the memo because no does came out after Thanksgiving evening.  I just hate to kill a doe on the first couple of weekends.  

[tvc184]

I have heard of the knock a horn off but I also have heard of an arrest for that reason. Anyone can violate the law and they had people violating it long before there were any restrictions.

I don't even have issues with people that killed young deer as it was legal. More power to them. I just wanted a tougher standard and the state has finally complied.

I truly believe that in the coming years everyone is going to see mature deer that they would never have seen had the AR's not been in place. When people start actually seeing mature deer and not having to settle for the year old 4 pointer, they will not want to go back to the old ways. I have talked to some people in other parts of the state that have had AR's for a few years and they are seeing way better and more deer.

[Guest bigcat]

Most honest hunters will comply with the new rule. But you still have alot of out law hunters out there. A lot of deer still get killed at night. Game wardens need to spend more time out in the woods at night, and get tougher on the outlaw hunters.

[BearBryant]

[quote name="bigcat" post="748422" timestamp="1264228157"]
Most honest hunters will comply with the new rule. But you still have alot of out law hunters out there. A lot of deer still get killed at night. Game wardens need to spend more time out in the woods at night, and get tougher on the outlaw hunters.
[/quote]

I agree.  I know of one guy that got stroked to the tune of $1600.00.  This dummy asked the game wardens who had came out to our lease on the Monday after opening day if they were giving leeway for bucks that were close.  They said that they were this first year.  But they wanted to see the deer.  LOL he showed them the buck and it wasn't even tagged!  Well that got them curious and they then found a deer in an icechest about 100 feet from his camper in the woods. No tag for it either.  It was a doe that he hadn't tagged.  He paid for those two deer! 

He will no longer be on our lease.

[injun]

Who decided that we all have to be trophy hunters??? I hunt public land , and was forced to
pass up at least 5 bucks that were too small this season....Does everyone believe that every
deer has the genetics to become a trophy deer with a 20" or even a 14-15" spread if allowed
to age???? I have been hunting for over 40 years and I am positive I have seen deer that were
4 or 5 years old that had an antler spread less than 13".. I realize this is probably the exception
rather than the rule but what will happen to these deer?? (The only thing that legally can, they die
of old age..)    How many kids' (or adults for that matter) first buck was a 4 point, which at that
time was a "Bonified trophy" to that individual... 
                                                                  This is just my 2 cents

[SWB]

[quote name="injun" post="749837" timestamp="1264535709"]
Who decided that we all have to be trophy hunters??? I hunt public land , and was forced to
pass up at least 5 bucks that were too small this season....Does everyone believe that every
deer has the genetics to become a trophy deer with a 20" or even a 14-15" spread if allowed
to age???? I have been hunting for over 40 years and I am positive I have seen deer that were
4 or 5 years old that had an antler spread less than 13".. I realize this is probably the exception
rather than the rule but what will happen to these deer?? (The only thing that legally can, they die
of old age..)    How many kids' (or adults for that matter) first buck was a 4 point, which at that
time was a "Bonified trophy" to that individual... 
                                                                   This is just my 2 cents


[/quote] Your entire statement is exactly why the state had to step in. Thank You TPWD !!

[injun]

[quote name="SWB" post="749884" timestamp="1264538933"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg749837#msg749837 date=1264535709]
Who decided that we all have to be trophy hunters??? I hunt public land , and was forced to
pass up at least 5 bucks that were too small this season....Does everyone believe that every
deer has the genetics to become a trophy deer with a 20" or even a 14-15" spread if allowed
to age???? I have been hunting for over 40 years and I am positive I have seen deer that were
4 or 5 years old that had an antler spread less than 13".. I realize this is probably the exception
rather than the rule but what will happen to these deer?? (The only thing that legally can, they die
of old age..)    How many kids' (or adults for that matter) first buck was a 4 point, which at that
time was a "Bonified trophy" to that individual...  
                                                                  This is just my 2 cents


[/quote] Your entire statement is exactly why the state had to step in. Thank You TPWD !!
[/quote]It's people like you that I don't understand...You saying we should all be trophy hunters because that is what you want to be??? Hopefully your son or grandson will be one who shoots a "spike" that has a hidden kicker point on the bottom of each antler and you get to pay the ticket for it.. I did fail to mention I did not want to shoot any of these bucks I saw this year , but it is the fact that I could not even if I wanted to...

[westend1]

[quote name="injun" post="749935" timestamp="1264541880"]
[quote author=SWB link=topic=61122.msg749884#msg749884 date=1264538933]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg749837#msg749837 date=1264535709]
Who decided that we all have to be trophy hunters??? I hunt public land , and was forced to
pass up at least 5 bucks that were too small this season....Does everyone believe that every
deer has the genetics to become a trophy deer with a 20" or even a 14-15" spread if allowed
to age???? I have been hunting for over 40 years and I am positive I have seen deer that were
4 or 5 years old that had an antler spread less than 13".. I realize this is probably the exception
rather than the rule but what will happen to these deer?? (The only thing that legally can, they die
of old age..)    How many kids' (or adults for that matter) first buck was a 4 point, which at that
time was a "Bonified trophy" to that individual...  
                                                                  This is just my 2 cents


[/quote] Your entire statement is exactly why the state had to step in. Thank You TPWD !!
[/quote]It's people like you that I don't understand...You saying we should all be trophy hunters because that is what you want to be??? Hopefully your son or grandson will be one who shoots a "spike" that has a hidden kicker point on the bottom of each antler and you get to pay the ticket for it.. I did fail to mention I did not want to shoot any of these bucks I saw this year , but it is the fact that I could not even if I wanted to...

[/quote]

You can't keep a 12" trout or an 18" redfish either.  Does it bother you that they are also making you a trophy fisherman?  It's good for the herd.    Isn't that reason enough?

[tvc184]

[quote name="westend1" post="749958" timestamp="1264545893"]

You can't keep a 12" trout or an 18" redfish either.  Does it bother you that they are also making you a trophy fisherman?  It's good for the herd.    Isn't that reason enough?
[/quote]

That pretty much tells it all right there.

A 13" (legal in AR counties) is far from a trophy buck. That is a term that is used by people who are against the AR's that is basically irrelevant. I am sure that there were lots (or a majority) of bucks killed this year that were legal and not what anyone would call a trophy.

It comes from the old mindset that "I have a right to kill any deer that I see". Or "I saw a buck so I should be able to kill it". Really?

It is very simply. Just like fish have a size limit to help guarantee maturity, now whitetails will have the same protection in many counties. Most hunting leases use that kind of standard (at a very minimum) anyway. I wonder what the average size of bucks killed on leases is compared to public land. Is it because the deer are bigger in the next pasture or it is because the people on most leases don't shoot Bambi?

It reminds me of when I started bass fishing in the early 70's. The state law was a 10" bass. I fished a couple of tournaments and it had to be a huge 12" bass to be legal. Then the state stepped in and said the minimum limit was 14". We were really mad. How are we going to catch such fish? Was the state crazy and just trying to end bass fishing? It is a rare bass that will grow over 14" and reach "lunker" status.

Not hardly. What we once thought of as a huge fish is now a bare minimum at 14". I look now at a 10" fish as almost a fingerling and can't believe that we ever kept anything that small. Did it stop bass fishing? Did it make it almost impossible to catch a legal bass? Not hardly and quite to the contrary.

It will be the same with whitetail bucks and no, the 13" limit is not perfect but needed.

[injun]

[quote name="westend1" post="749958" timestamp="1264545893"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg749935#msg749935 date=1264541880]
[quote author=SWB link=topic=61122.msg749884#msg749884 date=1264538933]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg749837#msg749837 date=1264535709]
Who decided that we all have to be trophy hunters??? I hunt public land , and was forced to
pass up at least 5 bucks that were too small this season....Does everyone believe that every
deer has the genetics to become a trophy deer with a 20" or even a 14-15" spread if allowed
to age???? I have been hunting for over 40 years and I am positive I have seen deer that were
4 or 5 years old that had an antler spread less than 13".. I realize this is probably the exception
rather than the rule but what will happen to these deer?? (The only thing that legally can, they die
of old age..)    How many kids' (or adults for that matter) first buck was a 4 point, which at that
time was a "Bonified trophy" to that individual...  
                                                                  This is just my 2 cents


[/quote] Your entire statement is exactly why the state had to step in. Thank You TPWD !!
[/quote]It's people like you that I don't understand...You saying we should all be trophy hunters because that is what you want to be??? Hopefully your son or grandson will be one who shoots a "spike" that has a hidden kicker point on the bottom of each antler and you get to pay the ticket for it.. I did fail to mention I did not want to shoot any of these bucks I saw this year , but it is the fact that I could not even if I wanted to...

[/quote]

You can't keep a 12" trout or an 18" redfish either.  Does it bother you that they are also making you a trophy fisherman?  It's good for the herd.    Isn't that reason enough?
[/quote]Send an Email to Chester Moore and ask his opinion on this subject...To answer your question yes is does bother me, but I can and do throw undersized fish back (alive). Not an option with a 12 3/4" deer that looks like a legal deer at 150 yards from a side veiw crossing an opening . I hunt National Forest land (MY CHOICE) in a tree climber with no feeder to stop him and watch him eat corn while I decide if he is big enough...Would you think it is better for "the herd" to keep (10)  24" breeding trout or (10) -14" fish.... For the record I released 4 speckled trout that were between 26 -28" this past spring..Your talking apples and oranges here..

[injun]

You also might want to check with the local deer processing markets and ask them if this new law affected their buisnesses this year

[westend1]

[quote name="injun" post="750060" timestamp="1264560848"]
You also might want to check with the local deer processing markets and ask them if this new law affected their buisnesses this year
[/quote]

I assume it did.  At least I hope so.  In a couple of years, it will be back to normal.

[injun]

[quote name="westend1" post="750075" timestamp="1264561958"]
[quote author=injun link=topic=61122.msg750060#msg750060 date=1264560848]
You also might want to check with the local deer processing markets and ask them if this new law affected their buisnesses this year
[/quote]

I assume it did.  At least I hope so.  In a couple of years, it will be back to normal.
[/quote]You Hope so..What kind of a statement is that to heck with that guys family I guess your theory is I got mine to heck with you

[westend1]

Chill chief,  The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.  I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.  If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)

[injun]

[quote name="westend1" post="750088" timestamp="1264562500"]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...

[westend1]

[quote name="injun" post="750105" timestamp="1264563058"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg750088#msg750088 date=1264562500]
Chill chief,   The whole point of the new regs was to stop the killing of young bucks.   I hope it is working.  If it is, the deer processing business should drop for a couple of years.   If it didn't drop some, then the regs aren't working.  Get my drift?          ::) ::)
[/quote]I do get your drift , but try to understand mine..I've shot my share of really nice bucks with rifles and archery equipment (not crossbows either) my point is if I'm not intrested in getting another trophy  for my wall
why limit me to a spike or a 13" buck..Let me make the choice...
[/quote]

I guess that is what I don't understand.  i've killed tons of stuff with my bow as well. Haven't picked up a rifle since 1990.  I have no desire to shoot a skinny, 1 1/2 year old buck.  I somewhat understand that some still find pleasure in shooting little deer, but I don't.  So, from a personal perspective, I like the change.  And, if hunters will give it a chance, they should be able to shoot just as many deer as before within a couple of years, but they will be larger deer.  Why is that such a bad thing?  2 or 3 lost years, where you still might stumble across a legal deer, a spike or a doe.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.

[tvc184]

[quote name="injun" post="750060" timestamp="1264560848"]
You also might want to check with the local deer processing markets and ask them if this new law affected their buisnesses this year
[/quote]

My processor said that he was down about 30 or more deer from last year.