DEER IN SOUTHEAST TEXAS 13 INCH OR GREATER SPREAD

[tvc184]

[quote name="ST413" post="908931" timestamp="1289770740"]
My wife took care of the 3 pt this morning. Dropped it off at the proceessor. Where a biologist aged it at 3.5 yrs. Said it needed to be killed.
[/quote]

Oh yeah. It is a 3 point and it is not a yearling, it needs to go.

[tvc184]

[quote name="AFC77" post="908751" timestamp="1289756584"]
So tvc184, your saying it has happened? What would the outcome be if someone were to get stopped by a TPWD officer and it didnt measure 13" but was outside the ears? Do you have any idea?
[/quote]

You are completely at the discretion of the game warden or any other officer. In all citations (game warden or any other peace officer) it comes down to officer discretion. If you are stopped speeding, a cop can warn you or give a citation. The same for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign and so on.

A game warden has the same authority. If you have a deer that is 12.8 inches, he can give you a warning, issue a citation or take you to jail and confiscate the deer. You can then be charged a replacement fee for the deer that may run $1,000 where they are basically suing you to restock the herd for the one you killed. It all goes by the game warden and maybe the mood that he is in.

From my experience, game wardens use less discretion that other officers. They are put out there for basically one reason and that is to protect the state's fish and game resources. In a way it is not quite like a city cop that catches you going 38 in a 30 mph zone. Okay, slow down....... no harm, no foul. If a game warden catches you with 3 speckled trout in your ice chest that are 14" (1 inch under the limit), there is no putting them back to live another day with a warning. The damage is done.

If game wardens are giving warning for close in some areas, great (I guess). I have read some hunting forums from different areas with the restrictions and some game wardens are giving a bit of latitude and in other areas they are holding it to the letter of the law.

[AFC77]

That is more comforting to me as a hunter to know that if it is within an inch there is a good chance you wont get a citation but im still going for the 13" or greater.

[tvc184]

As I have said before, the intent of the rule is not some arbitrary opening to fire a shot but the desire to get a more mature herd.

I understand the desire to kill a deer but I went for six years without killing a buck (killed plenty of does however) even without the now required restrictions.

Just because a deer might be close to the magical 13", it doesn't mean that a person should risk shooting it. Unless the deer is clearly over 13", it should not be attempted to kill it in order to ground check the deer. It is not like a fish that can be caught and tossed back if he doesn't measure up.

Of course, a person can do what he wants and risk it but that is not the way it should be undertaken. We should be looking for clearly mature deer and not just the state mandated inch rule. I wish that the rule was not needed and that people were more management minded. That simply is not the case however.

In my opinion.

[AFC77]

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your message there, but no I'm not going to shoot a deer unless I have clear evidence that it is greater than 13". I'm still learning though on how to age deer on the hoof so I can take a more mature deer vs. a younger deer.

[tvc184]

[quote name="AFC77" post="909465" timestamp="1289801323"]
Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your message there, but no I'm not going to shoot a deer unless I have clear evidence that it is greater than 13". I'm still learning though on how to age deer on the hoof so I can take a more mature deer vs. a younger deer.
[/quote]

I read a lot of forums and talk to plenty of people and it is like they are eyeballing a few deer that are around 12-13". They are looking to take the deer since he may actually measure the magic number.

If it is legal, I have could care less what someone kills on their lease or public land.

But the point of the spread is to let deer grow up into mature deer. Hopefully the herd will not be a bunch of 3.5 year olds that just make the restriction width and are taken out. So we will have a bunch of deer in a 2.5 year old herd instead of the 1.5 year old herd now when everything brown is put down.

Yes, I am aware that a lot of people actually manage their lease or private property but I don't think that a majority do. If they did, there would be no need for restrictions.

The 13" spread is the minimum. That doesn't mean that we should try and search out every deer when he hits 13" and kill him. Looking for mature deer would obviously be a better judge of when to shoot a deer and not his spread.

If we let the herd grow up, we will be killing 15-20" spread deer and not looking for the deer that may or may not measure up and kill him to see if he makes it. That is why I think that if a deer is close, you don't kill him. You let him walk and next year he will probably be no debate as to his size. I am not making a moral judgment in what someone kills. If it is legal by state law, go for it. With the current rules in many counties now set at 13", we should be looking for deer that are clearly over that and not debate whether this deer or that deer is 12.5" or 13.25". I see hunting forums and a guy will post a couple of pictures from a game cam asking for opinions if a particular deer is 13" yet. Some will say yes, some will say no. If it is that close..... why even ask?

That is my point.

[rip2506]

[quote name="643" post="908529" timestamp="1289737249"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg908518#msg908518 date=1289723743]
Yep. Wait a couple of more years and watch the results.
[/quote]Or you can go to your local Taxidermist and see the results so far>>OUTSTANDING...
[/quote]

Yep,  I called my guy up in Lumberton and he said he had eight 10pts or better just from opening weekend coming out of eastex and he said a normal year is 5 or 6 for the season... I do not know if this is due to the AR or the ideal conditions we had this year, but he truly believes it is due to ARs.

[ST413]

The idea of my pics wasn't to get someone to tell me yes that is a shooter or no it isn't.  It is to give an idea of how hard it is to tell for some people.  Yes,  I want to see a more mature herd.  I need to see these deer in the daylight before I get a idea whether I want to fire a shot or not.  The pics do show me some decent deer,  at least decent for what I have seen in SETX.  I have seen pictures of some real good deer around the area already this year.  However the same biologist that told me my wife's deer needed to be taken told me the area I am hunting is known for small horned for their age deer.  I won't shoot a 13"+ deer unless it is the one I am looking for.  However SETX is not like other areas.  A lot of the areas hunting are so thick you only get to see a deer briefly.  For hunters looking to "fill their freezer" or ones still looking for that first good buck,  that makes it awful hard to make the decision.  i am like others "fill the freezer" with does or a cull buck.  But my problem comes for those trying to get their young kids into hunting.  You get a kid out there and he sees one of these good bucks that isn't wide enough and tell him he can't shoot.  Good lesson for the future but hard lesson on an excited kid or maybe wife for that matter. Not too mention if they are in that position and hunting by themselves.  And I have stated previously  that,even though I don't know how you would do it,  I would like to see an exception to the rule for deer with crazy horns that need to be taken out.  Irregular non typical racks.  I killed one a few years ago that I will try to post a pic of in the next few days. His genetics needed to be stopped.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="ST413" post="910389" timestamp="1289882660"]
The idea of my pics wasn't to get someone to tell me yes that is a shooter or no it isn't.  It is to give an idea of how hard it is to tell for some people.  Yes,  I want to see a more mature herd.  I need to see these deer in the daylight before I get a idea whether I want to fire a shot or not.  The pics do show me some decent deer,  at least decent for what I have seen in SETX.  I have seen pictures of some real good deer around the area already this year.  However the same biologist that told me my wife's deer needed to be taken told me the area I am hunting is known for small horned for their age deer.  I won't shoot a 13"+ deer unless it is the one I am looking for.  However SETX is not like other areas.  A lot of the areas hunting are so thick you only get to see a deer briefly.  For hunters looking to "fill their freezer" or ones still looking for that first good buck,  that makes it awful hard to make the decision.  i am like others "fill the freezer" with does or a cull buck.  But my problem comes for those trying to get their young kids into hunting.   You get a kid out there and he sees one of these good bucks that isn't wide enough and tell him he can't shoot.  Good lesson for the future but hard lesson on an excited kid or maybe wife for that matter. Not too mention if they are in that position and hunting by themselves.  And I have stated previously  that,even though I don't know how you would do it,  [b]I would like to see an exception to the rule for deer with crazy horns that need to be taken out.[/b]  Irregular non typical racks.  I killed one a few years ago that I will try to post a pic of in the next few days. His genetics needed to be stopped.
[/quote]
I agree...if a hunting club or a private landowner wants to take out an inferior deer to improve the herd, they should be able to.  Right now they have no choice but to let poor quality deer walk (that may never reach 13")
I see the thought process behind the law but it handcuffs clubs and landowners that are managing for quality deer,.

[bullets13]

if i'm not mistaken, some clubs who are under certain certifications can take smaller cull deer.

[tvc184]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="910497" timestamp="1289918338"]

I agree...if a hunting club or a private landowner wants to take out an inferior deer to improve the herd, they should be able to.  Right now they have no choice but to let poor quality deer walk (that may never reach 13")
I see the thought process behind the law but it handcuffs clubs and landowners that are managing for quality deer,.

[/quote]

Except that the hunting club or private land owner do not own the deer. They belong to the people of the state of Texas even when they are crossing private property. There is very limited public hunting land in Texas. A large majority of the viable hunting land is on a hunting club or private property. Even in areas of public land, many of the deer that live there cross onto private or lease property.

If there was such a law allowing the killing of less than the antler restrictions due to private property or a hunting lease, about 95% of the area now covered by the current restrictions would not even apply. It would be a meaningless law. Sorry, this law only applies to you poor folks that can't afford a hunting lease or have the money and simply can't find one in your area.

As noted by Bullets, there is already a program in place for many hunting clubs through MLD.

Look at it this way. Let's say that a guy hunts on public land in Texas. He is hunting in one of the national forests near a fence line that is on private property. A buck comes out but can't be taken by the public hunter even though he has his young son with him. Then they watch as the deer runs 50 yards and jumps over the fence and is immediately blasted by a hunter and his young son.

The reason? The deer crossed the fence line onto "private" property. What is the guy on public property going to tell his son? Sorry but I couldn't afford $500 for a lease this year so the guy a few yards away can kill him but we can't.

So it is the same deer in almost the exactly same location but one is on that magical private land or a lease.

That is deer management? I don't think so.

By the same reasoning, we could catch any fish without regard as far as size or bag limit if we were standing on a private dock. Never mind that the fish could swim a few feet and be where it could only be caught from public waters.

Texas fish and game belong to the people of the state and one person has no more right to that game because it happens to cross onto or in front of private property.

Let the deer grow up and the kids won't have to "settle" for that baby 4 point to get the "first deer".

[ST413]

I agree public and private ruled should be the same just feel that maybe their should be an execption, public and private, I the cases I mentioned. I love some of the pics I have seen of deer killed in this area after just one year. Although, I personally haven't seen a deer in enough light that has over 3 pts.  One of the problems where I have hunted in Tyler county has been hunters on private land killing anything and the mentality if I don't take it the neighbors will. Now this year game wardens have told us the hunting club bordering our land has been ticketed more for small horns than any other area in the county.

[tvc184]

[quote name="ST413" post="910813" timestamp="1289939820"]
I agree public and private ruled should be the same just feel that maybe their should be an execption, public and private, I the cases I mentioned. I love some of the pics I have seen of deer killed in this area after just one year. Although, I personally haven't seen a deer in enough light that has over 3 pts.  One of [size=10pt][b]the problems where I have hunted in Tyler county has been hunters on private land killing anything and the mentality if I don't take it the neighbors will.[/b][/size] Now this year game wardens have told us the hunting club bordering our land has been ticketed more for small horns than any other area in the county.
[/quote]

That is where my lease was for the last 7 years.

We started voluntarily restricting out deer about 5 years ago. A 120" set of horns was a rarity on the lease and in my years there and up to three years ago, a 118" deer was the best taken (I dropped out this year for personal reasons that had nothing to do with the lease or its members). In the last two years our 11 hunters have taken a 138", a 141" and a couple more this year that may be pushing the high 120's or low 130's.

We went from taking a rare buck of any size to taking several good ones in the trophy class. We are not running a trophy lease but who would trade a single 118" deer for several over 130" and in less year?

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="tvc184" post="910801" timestamp="1289938901"]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg910497#msg910497 date=1289918338]

I agree...if a hunting club or a private landowner wants to take out an inferior deer to improve the herd, they should be able to.  Right now they have no choice but to let poor quality deer walk (that may never reach 13")
I see the thought process behind the law but it handcuffs clubs and landowners that are managing for quality deer,.

[/quote]

Except that the hunting club or private land owner do not own the deer. They belong to the people of the state of Texas even when they are crossing private property. There is very limited public hunting land in Texas. A large majority of the viable hunting land is on a hunting club or private property. Even in areas of public land, many of the deer that live there cross onto private or lease property.

If there was such a law allowing the killing of less than the antler restrictions due to private property or a hunting lease, about 95% of the area now covered by the current restrictions would not even apply. It would be a meaningless law. Sorry, this law only applies to you poor folks that can't afford a hunting lease or have the money and simply can't find one in your area.

As noted by Bullets, there is already a program in place for many hunting clubs through MLD.

Look at it this way. Let's say that a guy hunts on public land in Texas. He is hunting in one of the national forests near a fence line that is on private property. A buck comes out but can't be taken by the public hunter even though he has his young son with him. Then they watch as the deer runs 50 yards and jumps over the fence and is immediately blasted by a hunter and his young son.

The reason? The deer crossed the fence line onto "private" property. What is the guy on public property going to tell his son? Sorry but I couldn't afford $500 for a lease this year so the guy a few yards away can kill him but we can't.

So it is the same deer in almost the exactly same location but one is on that magical private land or a lease.

That is deer management? I don't think so.

By the same reasoning, we could catch any fish without regard as far as size or bag limit if we were standing on a private dock. Never mind that the fish could swim a few feet and be where it could only be caught from public waters.

Texas fish and game belong to the people of the state and one person has no more right to that game because it happens to cross onto or in front of private property.

Let the deer grow up and the kids won't have to "settle" for that baby 4 point to get the "first deer".
[/quote]

That's my point...some deer will never grow up and will pass on poor genes for years. 

A hunting club or private landowner should be able to take out cull bucks if needed IMO.  This rule was set up with unmanaged public land in mind (and yes there is a lot of public land...go check out a type 2 map book)where nobody has an a long term interest in improving the herd and anything with horns was taken out. 

These magical lines between being able to take a cull buck and not being able to take him because of antler restrictions already exist because not all counties have antler restrictions.

[Bucof2010]

A lot of the leases have been doing the same thing it has nothing to do with public or private land.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="Bucof2010" post="910882" timestamp="1289945445"]
A lot of the leases have been doing the same thing it has nothing to do with public or private land.
[/quote]

Leases are doing the same thing because they have to by law if they fall under the antler restrictions.  A well managed lease is not going to make a blanket rule of 13" to improve the herd.  A lot of factors determine which deer are going to be taken out as "cull" deer.  Antler restrictions don't let good leases manage as well as they could.

I agree with the rule for public hunting land...it forces folks to let smaller bucks walk that would normally shoot anything with horns.

[tvc184]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="910878" timestamp="1289944898"]

That's my point...some deer will never grow up and will pass on poor genes for years. 

A hunting club or private landowner should be able to take out cull bucks if needed IMO.  [size=10pt][b]This rule was set up with unmanaged public land in mind[/b][/size] (and yes there is a lot of public land...go check out a type 2 map book)where nobody has an a long term interest in improving the herd and anything with horns was taken out. 

These magical lines between being able to take a cull buck and not being able to take him because of antler restrictions already exist because not all counties have antler restrictions.
[/quote]

The AR's started years ago in the coastal bend in counties that much like east Texas, did very poor jobs of managing deer. Talk to people in Colorado County (one of the original counties) who almost never saw a mature deer but now kill lots of trophies. While there is a lot of national forest in east Texas, where is all the public land in south Texas where the AR's started?

Simply put, the AR's were not put in place for public land. Assuming that was correct, why not simply make that the law?

The AR's were put in place because a majority of people on private lands were not following good deer herd management. If they had, the AR's would not have been needed.

[LumRaiderFan]

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't like it...I'll do it because its law, but I don't like having to let low quality bucks walk that need to be culled. 

Small acreage landowners have no choice...can't get permits to take cull bucks in restricted counties.

[tvc184]

Fortunately for you, even though you don't like it and don't agree with it, you will reap the benefit of it.

Not liking the rules won't make the rules invalid. I didn't like the 55mph speed limit but there is no doubt that the roads were safer at that speed. Not liking the speed limit doesn't change the facts.

The fact is that our east Texas deer herd will be greatly improved in the coming years no matter how much anyone feels about their right to take any animal that they wish is being infringed.

A couple of questions for you. With centuries of hunting and even poaching where horns are almost no issue and inferior or cull bucks could be killed at will, why are there still inferior bucks? Also, if you take this cull off of a small acreage, how will that improve the herd which due to the small land area, is living almost assuredly off of the property?

[westend1]

I think MOST people who complain about AR simply want to be able to shoot any deer they see.  Even weird horned deer(culls) will usually get to 13" if given enough time.  Kill them after they mature a little.    I even like some of the weird racks.  Gives them a unique personality.

[LumRaiderFan]

If there are several small acreage landowners that are like minded in their management aproach, like in our area then you can manage several small tracts like a large tract if allowed.

Taking inferior deer will improve the herd...that is a fact.  It's a practice that all good leases follow.

The quality of the deer in south Texas is not because they applied the 13" rule in years past.  I'm not saying it didn't help but the biggest impact is allowing the good quality deer to mature and removing the culls.

And even if a deer did manage to reach 13" after 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years, its not the type of deer I would want in the gene pool.  I'm sure some oppose the rule because they want to kill anything with horns, but that's not my reasons.

[ST413]

I just added the pics of the deer, I have talked about it is in the first two pics.(that will be obvious).  The third pic is one I do have a question about. It does look like it is too close to 13" to take,  however it looks like a deer that is at least 5.5 years old from what I had been told on a trip to Del Rio, due to the sway back. Am I putting this as a mature deer when I shouldn't be?

[tvc184]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="911139" timestamp="1289965871"]
If there are several small acreage landowners [size=11pt][b]that are like minded in their management aproach[/b][/size], like in our area then you can manage several small tracts like a large tract if allowed.

Taking inferior deer will improve the herd...that is a fact.  It's a practice that [size=11pt][b]all good leases follow[/b][/size].

[size=11pt][b]The quality of the deer in south Texas is not because they applied the 13" rule in years past.[/b][/size]  I'm not saying it didn't help but the biggest impact is allowing the good quality deer to mature and removing the culls.

And even if a deer did manage to reach 13" after 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years, its not the type of deer I would want in the gene pool.  I'm sure some oppose the rule because they want to kill anything with horns, but that's not my reasons.
[/quote]

IF they are like minded and IF they were all good leases. Well if they were all like minded, we wouldn't need the new rules.

South Texas never needed a 13" rule because they had enough sense to manage their deer herd by the complete package and not some "one rule fits all".

The problem is, the state needs to do something and the 13" rule is simply the easiest to do.

I have no disagreement at all that the 13" rule is not a great management plan by itself. I don't think anyone including anyone from the state will claim that either. Something had to be done though and it had to be understood and implimented by the masses, not like minded managers. It is put in place for the lowest common denominator and in deer hunting, that can be fairly low.

It works and has already been proven to work. Is it the best plan? Not by a long sight. Is it one that works and will improve the herd? You betcha.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="tvc184" post="911240" timestamp="1289984611"]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911139#msg911139 date=1289965871]
If there are several small acreage landowners [size=11pt][b]that are like minded in their management aproach[/b][/size], like in our area then you can manage several small tracts like a large tract if allowed.

Taking inferior deer will improve the herd...that is a fact.  It's a practice that [size=11pt][b]all good leases follow[/b][/size].

[size=11pt][b]The quality of the deer in south Texas is not because they applied the 13" rule in years past.[/b][/size]  I'm not saying it didn't help but the biggest impact is allowing the good quality deer to mature and removing the culls.

And even if a deer did manage to reach 13" after 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 years, its not the type of deer I would want in the gene pool.  I'm sure some oppose the rule because they want to kill anything with horns, but that's not my reasons.
[/quote]

IF they are like minded and IF they were all good leases. Well if they were all like minded, we wouldn't need the new rules.

South Texas never needed a 13" rule because they had enough sense to manage their deer herd by the complete package and not some "one rule fits all".

The problem is, the state needs to do something and the 13" rule is simply the easiest to do.

I have no disagreement at all that the 13" rule is not a great management plan by itself. I don't think anyone including anyone from the state will claim that either. Something had to be done though and it had to be understood and implimented by the masses, not like minded managers. It is put in place for the lowest common denominator and in deer hunting, that can be fairly low.

It works and has already been proven to work. Is it the best plan? Not by a long sight. Is it one that works and will improve the herd? You betcha.


[/quote]

So I stand by my original thought...let the private landowners and lease-holders manage their herd by being able to take culls that
may be < 13"

I don't agree that 113 counties need to be managed by a committee in Austin while the rest of the 254 counties are smart enough
to manage themselves.  If the 13" restriction with no means to take cull bucks is the way to go...pass it in all counties.  I don't think it is!

One more thought...If you think for one second any rule passed will keep the lowest denominator in check, think again.

[tvc184]

Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds.

It would be folly to ignore the results.

Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon.