DEER IN SOUTHEAST TEXAS 13 INCH OR GREATER SPREAD

[ST413]

I see the difference in the big leases or ranches in south and west Tx being able to manage better than most areas in east tx, but how much political or monetary pull do these ranches have in keeping these AR's from affecting them.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="tvc184" post="911304" timestamp="1290004071"]
Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds.

It would be folly to ignore the results.

Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon.
[/quote]

I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference.

Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your
management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't.

Give land owners/managers a cull option...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years.

It would be folly to ignore that point!

[westend1]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="911331" timestamp="1290005913"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg911304#msg911304 date=1290004071]
Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds.

It would be folly to ignore the results.

Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon.
[/quote]

I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference.

Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your
management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't.

Give land owners/managers a cull option...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years.

It would be folly to ignore that point!




[/quote]

So, how are you going to define "cull"?    There is already a provision for non-forking horns.  What else do you want to put in the law?

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="westend1" post="911336" timestamp="1290006381"]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911331#msg911331 date=1290005913]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg911304#msg911304 date=1290004071]
Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds.

It would be folly to ignore the results.

Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon.
[/quote]

I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference.

Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your
management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't.

Give land owners/managers a cull option...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years.

It would be folly to ignore that point!




[/quote]

So, how are you going to define "cull"?    There is already a provision for non-forking horns.  What else do you want to put in the law?
[/quote]

Don't want anything else in the law...don't really want this one without cull exceptions. 

Successfull clubs and landowners have managed their herd without
interference very well because they have a vested interest in improving the deer quality whether it's for bigger bucks for members
or more cash per deer for the landowner. 

Keep the restriction for public land...fine by me...just let private landowners/clubs manage their herd.

[westend1]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="911350" timestamp="1290007470"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg911336#msg911336 date=1290006381]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911331#msg911331 date=1290005913]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg911304#msg911304 date=1290004071]
Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds.

It would be folly to ignore the results.

Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon.
[/quote]

I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference.

Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your
management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't.

Give land owners/managers a [b]cull option[/b]...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years.

It would be folly to ignore that point!




[/quote]

So, how are you going to define "cull"?    There is already a provision for non-forking horns.  What else do you want to put in the law?
[/quote]

Don't want anything else in the law...don't really want this one without cull exceptions. 

Successfull clubs and landowners have managed their herd without
interference very well because they have a vested interest in improving the deer quality whether it's for bigger bucks for members
or more cash per deer for the landowner. 

Keep the restriction for public land...fine by me...just let private landowners/clubs manage their herd.



[/quote]

You were the one that mentioned a "cull" option.  I just wondered what you meant.    Some people think a 2 year old 6 point is a cull.  Some people think deer that have larger horns on one side than the other are culls.    A "cull" exception, without a definition is pretty useless.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="westend1" post="911414" timestamp="1290012047"]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911350#msg911350 date=1290007470]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=61122.msg911336#msg911336 date=1290006381]
[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911331#msg911331 date=1290005913]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg911304#msg911304 date=1290004071]
Then why do all of the AR counties all show a fairly quick improvement in their deer herds.

It would be folly to ignore the results.

Like it or not, this program works (and again, not a perfect solution). We will all benefit from it and soon.
[/quote]

I don't agree that you do see a fairly quick improvement in the herd.  Big bucks have been killed in..for example Sabine county for many years.  The antler restrictions did not cause this.  Lots of good clubs have managed there for years..that's the difference.

Do this...pick up the phone and call TP &W and tell them you have several cull bucks < 13" on you property.  Ask them what are your
management options.  I have called and they will agree there needs to be an option to take inferior bucks but right now there isn't.

Give land owners/managers a [b]cull option[/b]...that's my simple point! ...one inferior buck that walks this year can lead to many in five years.

It would be folly to ignore that point!




[/quote]

So, how are you going to define "cull"?    There is already a provision for non-forking horns.  What else do you want to put in the law?
[/quote]

Don't want anything else in the law...don't really want this one without cull exceptions. 

Successfull clubs and landowners have managed their herd without
interference very well because they have a vested interest in improving the deer quality whether it's for bigger bucks for members
or more cash per deer for the landowner. 

Keep the restriction for public land...fine by me...just let private landowners/clubs manage their herd.



[/quote]

You were the one that mentioned a "cull" option.  I just wondered what you meant.    Some people think a 2 year old 6 point is a cull.   Some people think deer that have larger horns on one side than the other are culls.    A "cull" exception, without a definition is pretty useless.
[/quote]

Let the club/landowner define cull.  Some clubs have experienced hunters that can age a deer on the hoof and then determine if
he scores well enough for that age.  Others may apply an minimum point count and some may say anything with less than one brow tine goes.

Let the private landowner/leasee define their version of cull.  That method has worked well for a long time without having a "defined "
cull law in place.

TVC had a picture that was a 120" + deer that he "culled" from the herd because of the great quality area he hunts in.  One man's cull could be anothers trophy.

We don't need a cull law...there is no one size fits all that will work.

[westend1]

I guess that's where we disagree.  I don't think it has worked well for a long time. 

[bullets13]

if you let private land owners and leasers start defining what a "cull" is on their property, we'll start seeing people "cull" 1 1/2 year old 4 points again.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="bullets13" post="911519" timestamp="1290021629"]
if you let private land owners and leasers start defining what a "cull" is on their property, we'll start seeing people "cull" 1 1/2 year old 4 points again.
[/quote]

Over half the counties in Texas do just fine without restrictions.  How do you explain that?  If I applied your logic the bloodthirsty hunting masses would kill everything in sight unless restrained by the antler restrictions.

[westend1]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="911533" timestamp="1290022568"]
[quote author=bullets13 link=topic=61122.msg911519#msg911519 date=1290021629]
if you let private land owners and leasers start defining what a "cull" is on their property, we'll start seeing people "cull" 1 1/2 year old 4 points again.
[/quote]

Over half the counties in Texas do just fine without restrictions.  How do you explain that?  If I applied your logic the bloodthirsty hunting masses would kill everything in sight unless restrained by the antler restrictions.


[/quote]

I think hunter density and deer populations provide the answer.  Most leases in west Texas(at least the ones I have been on), limit the number of hunters, and they already have large deer populations, so that you don't feel the need to shoot the first deer you see.    The east Texas leases seem to have at least 1 hunter for every hundred acres, all scrambling for a limited number of deer.  The pine forests just won't support the number of deer that the hill country, or south texas will.

If people were willing to pay double the going lease price in east texas, and cut the number of hunters in half, the regs might not be necessary.  And frankly, i don't care if the put a 13" minimum on my Junction lease.  I'm not shooting those anyhow.

[tvc184]

[quote name="westend1" post="911434" timestamp="1290013843"]
I guess that's where we disagree.  I don't think it has worked well for a long time. 
[/quote]

[quote author=bullets13 link=topic=61122.msg911519#msg911519 date=1290021629]
if you let private land owners and leasers start defining what a "cull" is on their property, we'll start seeing people "cull" 1 1/2 year old 4 points again.
[/quote]

You are both correct. I has not worked and it is very obvious.

[quote author=LumRaiderFan link=topic=61122.msg911533#msg911533 date=1290022568]
[quote author=bullets13 link=topic=61122.msg911519#msg911519 date=1290021629]
if you let private land owners and leasers start defining what a "cull" is on their property, we'll start seeing people "cull" 1 1/2 year old 4 points again.
[/quote]

Over half the counties in Texas do just fine without restrictions.  How do you explain that?  If I applied your logic the bloodthirsty hunting masses would kill everything in sight unless restrained by the antler restrictions.

[/quote]

Why have more than half the counties in Texas not gone to AR's? Because it was not needed. It is not hard to explain. The majority if hunters and land owners set their own restrictions and they are a lot more strict than any 13" rule by the state. In effect, they are self governing.

If you think there is a lot of self governing going on in east Texas then you are playing ostrich and ignoring the truth.

That deer that I "culled" was at the discretion of the land owner that is under MLD. The deer was also aged by an on scene biologist as 6.5 years old.

Would age be the best restriction and not merely go by antler size? Again and again and again.....  Yes. Age is the issue and not horn size. If I had taken a 2.5 year old deer that was 18" wide and measured 135" then I would be wrong in my opinion.

Again and again and again..... AR's are not about the best management tool. It is just the most simple to visibly see and enforce. If you believe that the average hunter can age deer on the hoof with any real degree of accuracy then I have the Brooklyn Bridge in my back yard and it is for sale cheap. If the law was to kill any 3.5 year old deer or older (instead of AR's), then sit back and wait for the violations to come rolling in. You would have people swear that the 110 pound 6 point with a neck like a doe is a mature buck. I have seen just that in person on a trophy bowhunting ranch. Such a rule would be ridiculous and almost a non law. A schmuck can look at a deer and see if his horns are outside of his ears and if he can't clearly see that, not shoot.

After reading a few more threads on a bowhunter's forum, I have come to the conclusion that there could be exemptions to the AR's like if a biologist or game warden ages the deer at 4.5 year old or older or if maybe it could be that the deer is 150 pounds or more, then the AR's do not apply.

If such a move was made however, I think the AR's should be very strictly enforced with no slack given and very heavy fines issued. If a hunter is going to make the call that a deer is only 12" wide but is obvious a mature deer then he had better be able to back it up or pay dearly.

As it is, AR's are not the best management tool, they are the easiest to make a judgment on quickly and the easiest to enforce. They also show results even though they are not the best management possible and yes the results do show quickly. It is not like we are telling people to lay off of the deer and in 20 years we will have a good herd. Again, we could start with all fawns and within 3 years we would have a mature deer herd.

[tvc184]

Like the other areas that have had AR's in place for a few years, the east Texas hunters will be drug along kicking and screaming. Look at any of the hunting forums from the people that hunt in those areas and ask them if they wish to get away from AR's.

The results outstripped their anger at the government telling them what to do. Many of the ones that complained the loudest are now their biggest proponents.

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="tvc184" post="912096" timestamp="1290094195"]
Like the other areas that have had AR's in place for a few years, the east Texas hunters will be drug along kicking and screaming. Look at any of the hunting forums from the people that hunt in those areas and ask them if they wish to get away from AR's.

The results outstripped their anger at the government telling them what to do. Many of the ones that complained the loudest are now their biggest proponents.
[/quote]

For every one you find that likes the restriction, I can find 3 that don't like it.  I'll keep calling Austin and lobbying for the ability to kill
cull bucks in East Texas where I hunt and you keep applauding the restrictions while hunting in a county that more than likely doesn't apply them.

I guess I have more condidence in the ability of East Texas landowners/clubs to manage in a responsible manner than some!

[westend1]

[quote name="LumRaiderFan" post="912209" timestamp="1290099697"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg912096#msg912096 date=1290094195]
Like the other areas that have had AR's in place for a few years, the east Texas hunters will be drug along kicking and screaming. Look at any of the hunting forums from the people that hunt in those areas and ask them if they wish to get away from AR's.

The results outstripped their anger at the government telling them what to do. Many of the ones that complained the loudest are now their biggest proponents.
[/quote]

For every one you find that likes the restriction, I can find 3 that don't like it.  I'll keep calling Austin and lobbying for the ability to kill
cull bucks in East Texas where I hunt and you keep applauding the restrictions while hunting in a county that more than likely doesn't apply them.

I guess I have more condidence in the ability of East Texas landowners/clubs to manage in a responsible manner than some!
[/quote]

The same could probably be said for 18" redfish and 6 duck limits.  Hunters and fishermen as a group hate restrictions on what they can catch or kill.  Still doesn't make it right.  Time will tell if the new regs work better or if the old method of leaving it up to landowners/clubs worked better.     

[tvc184]

I have said my piece but I will leave it with this.

I am not going against anyone that says AR's are a better management program than an all inclusive package. The problem is that no matter how much anyone argues with it, a majority of people on leases in east Texas do not follow good management practices.

Three years from now the results will be in and a more mature, healthy and bigger deer herd will result.

Even those that have managed leases now will benefit (as will mine) because no matter how much you manage your lease or private property, the guy next door is likely not doing it. That is especially true the smaller the land area.

For a law as a general rule that applies to everyone, the AR's are simply the best that are easy to understand and easy to follow.

In a perfect world, everyone would be selective (including those that hunt public lands) and no laws would be needed at all. This is far from a perfect world and the AR's are the easiest to implement.

[LumRaiderFan]

[b]After reading a few more threads on a bowhunter's forum, I have come to the conclusion that there could be exemptions to the AR's like if a biologist or game warden ages the deer at 4.5 year old or older or if maybe it could be that the deer is 150 pounds or more, then the AR's do not apply.

If such a move was made however, I think the AR's should be very strictly enforced with no slack given and very heavy fines issued. If a hunter is going to make the call that a deer is only 12" wide but is obvious a mature deer then he had better be able to back it up or pay dearly. [/b]

I can agree with this...Allow an exemption for a cull buck to be taken.  When you take an inferior deer, you improve the herd,

If a game warden makes the call that you took a young healthy buck that should not have been taken...you should be fined.

[BearBryant]

Went hunting this afternoon with my oldest son.  Had 1 doe, 2 6pts, 1 8pt.  LOL real hard to tell him " hold on now" when he saw those bucks.  Had a great hunt.  (None of the bucks were shooters) 

[643]

[quote name="643" post="908529" timestamp="1289737249"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg908518#msg908518 date=1289723743]
Yep. Wait a couple of more years and watch the results.
[/quote]Or you can go to your local Taxidermist and see the results so far>>OUTSTANDING...
[/quote]LumRaiderFan there is a Taxidermist in Lumberton, go see what kind of bucks are comming in, you mite be amazed.....

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="643" post="915387" timestamp="1290341780"]
[quote author=643 link=topic=61122.msg908529#msg908529 date=1289737249]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=61122.msg908518#msg908518 date=1289723743]
Yep. Wait a couple of more years and watch the results.
[/quote]Or you can go to your local Taxidermist and see the results so far>>OUTSTANDING...
[/quote]LumRaiderFan there is a Taxidermist in Lumberton, go see what kind of bucks are comming in, you mite be amazed.....
[/quote]
Moye's has been mounting good bucks for years from East Texas...even before the 13" rule.  Good bucks didn't just start showing up.
I'll stand by my point...allow clubs/landowners to take out inferior deer that degrade the herd.  It's a management tool that has been used and proven...although not anymore in 113 counties...and it works.

[BearBryant]

5 does, 1 6pt, 1 nubbin, and 2 coons this evening.  Great hunt! 

[643]

I know first hand what goes in and out of that shop being that he's my Bro, your correct on what your saying >no dought< but when looking at the whole picure its for the best. One thing my Bro will tell you is he's seeing more and bigger deer come in this yr than in the past, last yr he was down on his E Texas bucks because of it being the first yr for the ARs. Hopefully in the future TPW will do something to adress the issues and they VERY WELL know the problem. Yrs back when we were a 1 buck county an ex sports writer for the paper I hunt with called Clayton Wolf in Jasper and voiced his concern on this very issue, the response was "sometimes you have to do what you have to do"....

[LumRaiderFan]

[quote name="643" post="916334" timestamp="1290431533"]
I know first hand what goes in and out of that shop being that he's my Bro, your correct on what your saying >no dought< but when looking at the whole picure its for the best. One thing my Bro will tell you is he's seeing more and bigger deer come in this yr than in the past, last yr he was down on his E Texas bucks because of it being the first yr for the ARs. Hopefully in the future TPW will do something to adress the issues and they VERY WELL know the problem. Yrs back when we were a 1 buck county an ex sports writer for the paper I hunt with called Clayton Wolf in Jasper and voiced his concern on this very issue, the response was "[b]sometimes you have to do what you have to do[/b]"....
[/quote]

I hope TP&W can figure out a way to include cull management in their plan because what your buddy was saying is correct ...it's gonna happen anyway.  I would just hope we can come to a legal solution.

I have a deer that I have seen this year that needs to be taken...he is probably 4.5 to 5.5 years old (not an expert at live aging...best guess) roman nose, gray face , pot belly and huge body and I'm not sure he's 13.  Heavy,heavy horns with stickers all over...8 point with crab claws on end of main beams.  Definitely needs to be taken out...I'd love to take him cause he'd be a great bow kill...but I'm just not sure. 

I would just like to see an option for this type of deer...every club/landowner has them.

[tvc184]

They have been running this AR thing for many years with very results. It was put in place because of people not wanting to manage and cull.

So don't hold your breath waiting for a change very soon.

[piratepride86]

i have been on a lease in Newton Texas fo 17 years and we have been managing our deer herd since i have been on it. we shoot our does, and let the young bucks walk. as far as the 13" rule, i was teaching this to my two sons at a very young age. by the time they were 12 and able to hunt by theirselves, they were able to judge the deer and let them mature. when my oldest son turned twelve, i gave him a rifle and his own stand, and he didnt shoot a buck for four years.  when he did it was 4.5 years old, and a nice 9 point. had it mounted and put it on the trophy wall. my youngest son is in school for the navy out in california, and when i talk to him about me hunting his stand, the first thing he says is  " dont shoot my small deer, let them grow up". we have seen the results of this on our lease. and if 12 years old boys can do this on their own, anyone can do it. the results will follow, just give it some time.

[tvc184]

Great post from the voice of experience.