What do you think about the use of "Lady", "Rebel" or "Indian" as mascot names?

[gdickert]

When I worked in the sports department at The Enterprise it was a ironclad rule that writers not use "lady" in front of a team's mascot. That included Lamar sports. The idea was that by qualifying the team as a "lady" rather than just the mascot's name we were diminishing the role of women's sports and demeaning to women in general. Yet, the first person to scream bloody murder was the women's volleyball coach at Lamar at the time. "We are the Lady Cardinals!" she said. As far as I know, the rule still stands ... not sure if it's enforced though. Honestly, the only one that ever bothered me was the shortened version of any team called the Bulldogs ... as in the "Lady Dogs" ... just something distasteful about it I guess.

[b]Here are some interesting columns about the "Lady" issue:[/b]

[url=http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2007-04-03-brennan-nicknames_N.htm]USA TODAY COLUMN[/url]
[url=http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1993/04/04-29-93tdc/04-29-93dsports-column.asp]PENN STATE COLLEGIAN[/url]
[url=http://patsummitt.blogspot.com/2007/04/lady-name-will-stay-top-ut-ladies-say.html]LADY VOLS NEWS[/url]

[b]And how about some other controversial mascot musings: (SORRY PN-G, WARREN ... Though I think the Rock-A-Noos are safe!)[/b]
[b]American Indians: Redskins, Chiefs, Braves, Fighting Illini, Warriors, etc.[/b]

[url=http://www.nativecircle.com/mascots.htm]NATIVE CIRCLE EDITORIAL[/url]
[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2125735]ESPN STORY ON INDIAN MASCOT BAN[/url]
[url=http://www.aimovement.org/ncrsm/index.html]NATIONAL COALITION ON SPORTS AND RACISM[/url]

[b]And then there are the Rebels ... (SORRY EVADALE ... YOU KNOW I LUV YA)[/b]

[url=http://www.samobar.com/180/2009/03/rebel-mascot-and-associated-fl.html]REBEL MASCOT EDITORIAL[/url]
[url=http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/rockytalklive/archives/2009/02/south_benches_johnny_rebel_new.html]ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS[/url]

[Long Tall Texan]

Im fine with whatever any team wants to call themselves. Its none of my business. Two of the best mascots around here are the Sabine Pass Sharks and the Evadale Rebels in my opinion.

[AshlyHasBeen]

PN-G Indians is fine we have the blessing of the Cherokee nation. I don't see whats wrong with Lady at all. The Rebel thing you can take as you want not a big deal to me but I know people that move here from out of town that see the Rebel flag in the school seal of Evadale are a little shocked.

[speveto]

when you refer to me, you can use any racial slur you choose, except one.  NEVER CALL ME "WHITE BREAD"

[Bucof2010]

Tell me there's not a rebel flag displayed @ evadale?

[Guest ~old_wildcat~]

It don't make any difference what you call a team,there's gonna be some little narrow minded,insecure group or person who finds it offensive..They gotta have a cause
...  My uncle Ferdinan and his wife Liza,couldn't decide on what to name their first born son..So they put the first part of each of their names together and came up with "Fertilizer"..Some of the family thought it was shocking I found it creative..kinda how you look at things... ;D

[YankeeDawg]

Well, if they ARE ladies, then they shouldn't have anything to complain about, right??

Otherwise [img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SjcOzGNeL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg[/img]

[NedDog]

I agree with all of the preceeding posts.  Mascot names or "Lady" this or that is no big deal . . . . and no big deal should be made of any of it. 

[Guest LR1969]

On the Indian side, I find the whole debate politically correct nonsense. I suppose if a team mascot was the "Evil Indian People" then I would have more sympathy. The problem is that a school's mascot is a revered object, rather than an object of disdain. Therefore, to suggest that a school has an Indian mascot because it hates Indians (excuse me, Native Americans) is complete nonsense. You will never convince me that FSU has done anything but endorse the spirit of the Seminole tribe. To take that away would be an insult to not only FSU but also the entire Seminole population. The same can be said for PN-G. There is no lack of respect for the American Indian in Port Neches.
As for schools changing their names...why do they always come up with a stupid name? The fans of St. John's should sue the NCAA for sticking them with a stupid mascot. In fact, we should sue because the word storm could bring back bad hurricane memories. And, as hurricane victims, we don't find such references funny.
Unfortunately, teams are now caving and more will in the near future. I wish they wouldn't. I would love to see a school truly stand up to this ridiculous attack on brain cells and say to heck with the NCAA/UIL, etc. I fully expect PN-G to give way in a few years from continual outside pressure. When they do, I hope they call themselves the "Nosey Administrators".
As for the Rebel mascot. I have less sympathy here because, as I already stated, a mascot is a symbolic object of respect and admiration by a school. In the Indian situation; that fact alone proves that their is no underlying hatred/anger toward American Indians. However, for Rebels, it means that the Rebel cause and all that the Rebel (Southern Rebellion) stood for is being celebrated. I do respect the "States Rights" side of the argument when it comes to the Civil War but I do not buy into the argument that the Civil War was not about slavery. It was. Most importantly, it was about the States right to have slaves and keep slavery alive. Had it been about the States right to sell cucumbers along the side of the road then I might be more sympathetic. However, as it stands, I am glad the South lost the Civil War and slavery is no longer practiced in this country. It is a blight on our history and, although there are heroic tales from the Southern side of the Civil War (Dick Dowling for instance) I simply cannot endorse a Rebel mascot (Confederate flag included) anymore than I could endorse a swastika on a football helmet. However, I will leave it up to the schools and their fans to decide the fate of said mascots. I should add that I also would not like a pro-Union mascot due to the horrendous atrocities committed by "Yankee" soldiers during their occupation of the Southern US (starving families, burning communities, raping, etc....two wrongs don't make a right).
As for Lady anything....could care less...will leave that one up to the lady 'ballers'.

Lastly...I am a descendant of the Choctaw nation on both sides of my family. In addition, I am a true heir to the Confederacy, in that a number of my ancestors fought for the Confederacy in the "War of Northern Aggression". I also support Evadale and Ole Miss for standing up for their beliefs but, unlike the "Indian" schools, their argument holds little weight. Whereas the Indian mascot fan can simply argue that they are giving respect to the mascot, the Rebel mascot has to somehow convince everyone that they do not respect the spirit of their mascot in order to win the argument....just doesn't work.

Just my two cents...don't hate me(ha)!!!

[Guest LR1969]

Wow...In re-reading my post, I noticed that the powers that be apparently do not like Mr. Dowling since they changed his name from d..k to censored...how appropriate during this debate (ha).

[BearBryant]

I think that all are ok to be used.

No different than using Pirates or Raiders

[Jackthehammer]

I have a great deal of respect for the American Indian. The PNG people are in no way disrespectful of the Indian Nation, in fact, they seeked out the Cherokee Nation and asked for and recieved  permission to go foward with the use of the Indian as a mascot. The traditional war dance they do is awsome one of the greatest parts of the whole PNG show.

[shovel]

I am really tired of the political correctness argument about team names and mascots. None of the team names are meant as a disrespect to anyone. Some may argue that they are meant as an honor vs. a disrespect. Most of the arguments I have read on this matter, including the ones listed in the original post, are written by people who want somebody else to knuckle under to their own beliefs or agendas. gdickert, I have to ask: What are your reasons for posting this? What are your thoughts on this?

[Slam14]

[quote name="LR1969" post="708706" timestamp="1258293999"]
On the Indian side, I find the whole debate politically correct nonsense. I suppose if a team mascot was the "Evil Indian People" then I would have more sympathy. The problem is that a school's mascot is a revered object, rather than an object of disdain. Therefore, to suggest that a school has an Indian mascot because it hates Indians (excuse me, Native Americans) is complete nonsense. You will never convince me that FSU has done anything but endorse the spirit of the Seminole tribe. To take that away would be an insult to not only FSU but also the entire Seminole population. The same can be said for PN-G. There is no lack of respect for the American Indian in Port Neches.
As for schools changing their names...why do they always come up with a stupid name? The fans of St. John's should sue the NCAA for sticking them with a stupid mascot. In fact, we should sue because the word storm could bring back bad hurricane memories. And, as hurricane victims, we don't find such references funny.
Unfortunately, teams are now caving and more will in the near future. I wish they wouldn't. I would love to see a school truly stand up to this ridiculous attack on brain cells and say to heck with the NCAA/UIL, etc. I fully expect PN-G to give way in a few years from continual outside pressure. When they do, I hope they call themselves the "Nosey Administrators".
As for the Rebel mascot. I have less sympathy here because, as I already stated, a mascot is a symbolic object of respect and admiration by a school. In the Indian situation; that fact alone proves that their is no underlying hatred/anger toward American Indians. However, for Rebels, it means that the Rebel cause and all that the Rebel (Southern Rebellion) stood for is being celebrated. I do respect the "States Rights" side of the argument when it comes to the Civil War but I do not buy into the argument that the Civil War was not about slavery. It was. Most importantly, it was about the States right to have slaves and keep slavery alive. Had it been about the States right to sell cucumbers along the side of the road then I might be more sympathetic. However, as it stands, I am glad the South lost the Civil War and slavery is no longer practiced in this country. It is a blight on our history and, although there are heroic tales from the Southern side of the Civil War (censored Dowling for instance) I simply cannot endorse a Rebel mascot (Confederate flag included) anymore than I could endorse a swastika on a football helmet. However, I will leave it up to the schools and their fans to decide the fate of said mascots. I should add that I also would not like a pro-Union mascot due to the horrendous atrocities committed by "Yankee" soldiers during their occupation of the Southern US (starving families, burning communities, raping, etc....two wrongs don't make a right).
As for Lady anything....could care less...will leave that one up to the lady 'ballers'.

Lastly...I am a descendant of the Choctaw nation on both sides of my family. In addition, I am a true heir to the Confederacy, in that a number of my ancestors fought for the Confederacy in the "War of Northern Aggression". I also support Evadale and Ole Miss for standing up for their beliefs but, unlike the "Indian" schools, their argument holds little weight. Whereas the Indian mascot fan can simply argue that they are giving respect to the mascot, the Rebel mascot has to somehow convince everyone that they do not respect the spirit of their mascot in order to win the argument....just doesn't work.

Just my two cents...don't hate me(ha)!!!
[/quote]

  Good post and some heartfelt opinions.

[meanjoe]

[quote name="WeedBegone" post="708677" timestamp="1258290326"]
Personally, I am getting tired of all of this political correctness.  It has only made people overly sensitive and now we all walk on thin ice.  Show me your true colors and call me what you want----then I must deal with it.  
As far as putting ladies in front---I agree that this is a way to acknowledge and recognize their existence in atheletics.  Focus on the story and not the politics.

Leave the mascots alone-----even the Rebels.  

And I long for the day when the words Racism and Sexism  are not used as trump cards to win an issue.  Lets start treating and giving people the benefit of the doubt.  Lets prove our points using  logic and common sense and not emotions. 
[/quote] racism and sexism will always exist as long as their are racist and sexist.

[underarmor]

Not an opinion,just something to think about.....

I strolled into a CHINESE restaurant the other nite and was greeted at the door by a VIETNEMESE lady who showed us to our table. Our waiter,who was CAUCASIAN, took our order for drinks, an IRISH coffee and a BLACK RUSSIAN. The host came by to say hello, a PAKISTANI man in his 40's and discussed his MUSLIM faith and told us his MOSQUE was in Beaumont. We ordered our food, I had CRAWFISH and some FRENCH pastry and the wife had SPAGHETTI and GERMAN chololate cake.
We finished our meal and on the way out we looked at pictures of the restaurants Board of Directors. There were 2 CHINESE, 1 CAUCASIAN, 2 AFRICAN AMERICANS, 1 INDIAN, and the Chairman of the Board was a PAKISTANI WOMAN.
The food was great, the atmosphere friendly and the only complaint I heard,"was a little pricey wasn't it?"

AMERICA-Get over its past-Respect its history(Good or Bad), and enjoy the present.

[underarmor]

[quote name="meanjoe" post="708808" timestamp="1258303847"]
[quote author=WeedBegone link=topic=62427.msg708677#msg708677 date=1258290326]
Personally, I am getting tired of all of this political correctness.  It has only made people overly sensitive and now we all walk on thin ice.  Show me your true colors and call me what you want----then I must deal with it.  
As far as putting ladies in front---I agree that this is a way to acknowledge and recognize their existence in atheletics.  Focus on the story and not the politics.

Leave the mascots alone-----even the Rebels.  

And I long for the day when the words Racism and Sexism  are not used as trump cards to win an issue.  Lets start treating and giving people the benefit of the doubt.  Lets prove our points using  logic and common sense and not emotions. 
[/quote] racism and sexism will always exist as long as their are racist and sexist.
[/quote]
amen

[PN-G bamatex]

Having some Native American blood in me, I'm proud of the fact that my school uses the team name "Indians" with such respect and reverence. We were given the blessing of the Cherokee Nation because of our "Tradition of Excellence" and the "Honor, Pride, and Tradition" we held to be synonymous with the name. We're all Indians. That's the unifying factor among the people of Port Neches and Groves and those that come from these communities, and it's a source of pride. "Indians" is more than just a name.

[Slam14]

[quote name="PN-G bandkid" post="708881" timestamp="1258311570"]
Having some Native American blood in me, I'm proud of the fact that my school uses the team name "Indians" with such respect and reverence. We were given the blessing of the Cherokee Nation because of our "Tradition of Excellence" and the "Honor, Pride, and Tradition" we held to be synonymous with the name. We're all Indians. That's the unifying factor among the people of Port Neches and Groves and those that come from these communities, and it's a source of pride. "Indians" is more than just a name.
[/quote]

Nice sentiments and I don't really disagree with you, but I'm not sure all of that fluff will hold up in a court of law if it comes down to it.

[AshlyHasBeen]

To answer the question about Evadale yes they have flown the Rebel flag in front of the school and it's on the school's sign plus painted on the wall in the gym as part of the school seal. TJ's girls bball team had an issue with it years ago.

[PN-G bamatex]

[quote name="Slam14" post="708933" timestamp="1258315916"]
[quote author=PN-G bandkid link=topic=62427.msg708881#msg708881 date=1258311570]
Having some Native American blood in me, I'm proud of the fact that my school uses the team name "Indians" with such respect and reverence. We were given the blessing of the Cherokee Nation because of our "Tradition of Excellence" and the "Honor, Pride, and Tradition" we held to be synonymous with the name. We're all Indians. That's the unifying factor among the people of Port Neches and Groves and those that come from these communities, and it's a source of pride. "Indians" is more than just a name.
[/quote]

Nice sentiments and I don't really disagree with you, but I'm not sure all of that fluff will hold up in a court of law if it comes down to it.
[/quote]

Maybe not, but it did at one time. Nowadays, we have the "fluff" as well as the support and consent of a federally-recognized sovereign nation.

[15 PNG]

I too am extremely sick of the whole political correctness plague.  I am Scottish and Irish - 50/50 and proud of both.  The thought has never occurred to me to to sue, shut down, slander, etc The Highland Park Scots or Notre Dame Fighting Irish.  Rather, I thought, that's kinda cool.  I AM ONE OF THOSE.

[underarmor]

[quote name="ShlyKBMT" post="708942" timestamp="1258316699"]
To answer the question about Evadale yes they have flown the Rebel flag in front of the school and it's on the school's sign plus painted on the wall in the gym as part of the school seal. TJ's girls bball team had an issue with it years ago.
[/quote]

You being a reporter, I understand how you get things wrong, just as most media do. Whats wrong are your ratings low?
To set the record straight there is no confederate flag flying in front of the school. There is a school crest on the wall of the gym inside and out and it has been the crest of the school for many years.
The only school that ever made any remark about the crest was not TJ it was a school from north of Evadale and it was discussed and everyone was satisfied.
So if your sports show has low ratings dont try to raise them by making Evadale a bad place. Many people have visited the Evadale area to view the best little Homecoming parade in the state and attend the Catfish Festival every year and yes we have all ethnic groups involved. They seem to appreciate the hospitality of all of Evadale.
So study your subjects a little better before you sling your Beaumont arrows our way, try looking in the mirror and correcting your own problems of the big city.
Just for your own education there are African American children in the Evadale school system.
Now go find something worth reporting that your audience of 10 might watch. :-*

[gdickert]

Didn't intend for this to be a contentious thread ... I was curious what folks around here thought about these issues. I saw an original post on the volleyball thread and thought it would get a bigger audience on the football thread.
I read an interesting article about the origination of the term "redskin" ... Apparently bounty hunters back in the 1800s were paid good money for all the Indian scalps they could collect and turn in to traders. They would sell skins, furs and pelts of various animals, including the "redskins" of killed American Indian men, women and children. Is it true? Who knows.
In regards to the Rebels mascot, Sour Lake High School used to have a Rebels mascot. When integration took place and it became Hardin-Jefferson High School, the mascot was changed to the Hawks.

[AshlyHasBeen]

Nice try anyways I have seen a flag personally not recently but in some years past I have friends that live by there. The seal on the wall was brought up when the Thomas Jefferson girls basketball team was to play a playoff game there. There was an article written in the PA News about the subject but it blew over. I'm not by offended by much of anything and the Rebels mascot or flag does not offend me. I get my facts right and remember I've lived here all my life so I've seen things before I started working in TV 10 years ago. My ratings are fine thank you.

And how was that attack on Evadale anyway, my best friends Dad played baseball for Evadale and my girlfriend lives in Pine Forest. I never said anything bad about the place I just stated that when people move from out of the area here are surprised by the seal in the school.