Newton & Kirbyville losses

[ChampionEagles]

Both teams lost to teams that run the spread offense with the zone read. Neither teams defense could stop that offense. It's not seen in the golden triangle a lot and is seen across the state more. Is this the reason that no teams from the Golden Triangle have won a state championship game since Newton in 2005? This type of offense is very potent when ran correctly and a threat every play to score. Kirbyville and Newton had pretty good offense, but no answer on defense. Are more teams going to run this type offense in the coming year? What is the answer to defense it. Please this is not bashing of either program, but an observation. A lot of colleges run this offense currently.

[CatFan81]

Very good observation.  Had this exact discussion with a friend on the way back from San Marcos.

[wowzer99]

Kirbyville defended the spread a lot better this year than last. 

[kvillefootball50]

pp's run first version of the spread is totally different than the passing spread that muleshoe ran last year.
it wasn't the fact of kirbyville not stopping the "spread" offense, it was more that the offensive lineman were very strong and dominant and along with that they had a GREAT running back and a very athletic qb and the zone read with those type players is a very hard play to stop

[ChampionEagles]

If Kirbyville had "stopped" it you would have won. My point exactly. Regardless of strength and atheletic ability this offense is set up to take advantage of whatever the defense ran against it. Muleshoe's version is only one more out there. There are several I'm aware of , but they are all versions of the same offense.

[wowzer99]

No, Kirbyville didn't "stop" PP's offense, but this season, they did a better job defending spread offenses than last year. PP wasn't the first spread team Kville played this year, they were just the best one.  Just look at what PP did all season to teams in region II that are used to defending the spread.

[ChampionEagles]

Hey I'm not downing Kirbyville. I'm saying this offense is something that is being ran more and more. Silsbee ran a version of it, I believe. The defenses ran against it have not been very effective, including Kirbyville and Newton. Defensive line play, I think, is the key. If you can get across the line of scrimmage with pressure, and cover with your defensive backs, you stand a chance. If your weak in rush or break coverage it opens up. Is this offense the future? I don't think many high school teams have stopped any team that runs it well.

[wowzer99]

call me old school, but i can't stand the spread.  The way pilot point ran it was alright i guess, but most of the time i can't stand watching it.  it's effective though, because you have so many options.  you have to be good at every level and position on defense cuz it will expose every weakness you have.

[ChampionEagles]

It's won championships, too. Until someone comes up with an effective defense, I think we'll see more and more of it. Your exactly right in that it exposes every weakness on defense and that is what makes it so effective. I know that Newton, and I think Kirbyville, have thrown the ball more in the last 5 years than they did in the preceding 20. Just running regular pass defense against the spread/zone read and they are going to light you up if they have the quality athletes playing. The overall level of ability in high school athletics has definately increased in the last 20 years. Are we here in the Golden Triangle behind the times by not adopting this offense or are we going to wait until someone figures out a defense that will work against it?

[SetxFootball]

Bridge City runs the old spread, can be quite effective if ran right  8)




I love the offense if you have a beast of a running back like ughhh lets say ford and a dual threat qutarback

[ChampionEagles]

It seems that the truth has irritated some on this board. You can smite me all you want, the truth is still the truth. Newton has lost two years running to this offense. Kirbyville has lost two years running to this offense. This is the truth not something made up. How does a good team get better? By fixing it's weaknesses. Newton and Kirbyville both had weak defenses playing this kind of offense. Is there a defense that can stop it? I think we have just as many good athletes as anywhere in the state. How do we move on to the next step?

[dayton]

[quote name="ChampionEagles" post="730707" timestamp="1260890366"]
It seems that the truth has irritated some on this board. You can smite me all you want, the truth is still the truth. Newton has lost two years running to this offense. Kirbyville has lost two years running to this offense. This is the truth not something made up. How does a good team get better? By fixing it's weaknesses. Newton and Kirbyville both had weak defenses playing this kind of offense. Is there a defense that can stop it? I think we have just as many good athletes as anywhere in the state. [b]How do we move on to the next step[/b]?
[/quote]

You've just got to get more experience against it. dayton defended it better this year as well, IMO.

Everyone talks about this 4A region being week with La Marque's and others' decline... but look at LM's last state championship.... it was against a VERY run heavy Waco team. don't get me wrong... LM has indeed declined, but look at the 4A state champions since that year.

07
DI - Lamar Consolidated - Can't remember what O, but the QB threw for over 2,000 yds in addition to having Jacquizz
DII - Lake Travis - Spread

08
DI - LT - Spread
DII - Sulphur Springs - Spread

09 Finalists
DI - LT(spread) and Longview (power running mostly)
DII - Aledo and Brenham - both spread I believe... brenham for sure

I'm sure you could go up and down the classifications and see the same trend. I know Trinity is in the 5A finals but they a rarity with their consistently HUGE size, etc. And Katy can throw it around as well....

bottom line.... if you can't throw the ball and haven't seen a lot of throwing over the course of the year. You are most likely not going to win a state championship.

[ChampionEagles]

Is the answer to accept this offense is going to get it's points and try to out score it or to defense it some way to try to contain the score. I think your right in looking up and down the classifications and see the amount of state champions that have won using this offense. That's why my question about the golden triangle. Are we behind the times?

[dayton]

[quote name="ChampionEagles" post="730718" timestamp="1260891998"]
Is the answer to accept this offense is going to get it's points and try to out score it or to defense it some way to try to contain the score. I think your right in looking up and down the classifications and see the amount of state champions that have won using this offense. That's why my question about the golden triangle. [b]Are we behind the times? [/b] [/quote]

I think so...

The answer is on O and D in my opinion,... you've got to find a way hold the score down but you've still gotta score at least 4 touchdowns against a good spread team to win most games. How do you do that??? I don't know. I'm not an X's and O's guy. "Out athleteing" them at every position helps, but that's not realistic deep in the playoffs.

[DP#1FAN]

[quote name="ChampionEagles" post="730718" timestamp="1260891998"]
Is the answer to accept this offense is going to get it's points and try to out score it or to defense it some way to try to contain the score. I think your right in looking up and down the classifications and see the amount of state champions that have won using this offense. That's why my question about the golden triangle. Are we behind the times?
[/quote]
Perhaps you should replace the coach up there and put this offense in yourself.  :D :D I have heard and read it all now!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dayton]

[quote name="DP#1FAN" post="730732" timestamp="1260893635"]
[quote author=ChampionEagles link=topic=63795.msg730718#msg730718 date=1260891998]
Is the answer to accept this offense is going to get it's points and try to out score it or to defense it some way to try to contain the score. I think your right in looking up and down the classifications and see the amount of state champions that have won using this offense. That's why my question about the golden triangle. Are we behind the times?
[/quote]
Perhaps you should replace the coach up there and put this offense in yourself.  :D :D I have heard and read it all now!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]

newsflash.... no more discussing football on a football forum.

Lock the thread mods. ::)

[ChampionEagles]

[quote name="DP#1FAN" post="730732" timestamp="1260893635"]
[quote author=ChampionEagles link=topic=63795.msg730718#msg730718 date=1260891998]
Is the answer to accept this offense is going to get it's points and try to out score it or to defense it some way to try to contain the score. I think your right in looking up and down the classifications and see the amount of state champions that have won using this offense. That's why my question about the golden triangle. Are we behind the times?
[/quote]
Perhaps you should replace the coach up there and put this offense in yourself.  :D :D I have heard and read it all now!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
Typical answer.

[ChampionEagles]

Some teams have not been in the playoffs enough to understand this question. If your satisfied to just try and win some games, you have a very limited view of football in the state of Texas. If you want your team to bring home one of those state champion trophies this is a very relevant question. I haven't said anything about replacing any coaches, yet this gets thrust into the conversation by someone that knows little about what I'm talking about. This discussion is about theory of offense and defense. If that is over your head, maybe you should decline to participate. And smite me some more.

[exsetxn]

Two keys to stopping this spread offense. Pressure on the quarterback and you must be able to play man to man coverage (including jam recievers at the line). Both pressure on QB and jamming recievers disrupts timing and timing is a key element in spread offenses. Spread forces you to be able to man up, if you can't do that someone will always be open.  San Augustine showed how to do it a few years ago when they beat Tuscola Jim Ned (and Colt McCoy) for the state championship. Jim Ned ran the spread and essentially waltzed through the regular season and playoffs. After Jim Ned went through the San Augustine defense like exlax through a widow woman for the first td, San Augustine put those fast DBs on the line, jammed 'em, disrupted the timing, covered 'em like a blanket, put pressure on Mc Coy, again disrupting the timing, and shut them down. Won the game rather handily. Of course, this is jmho,  stopping any offense is usually easier said than done, and if I REALLY knew what I was talking about someone would pay me big bucks to run their offense ... LOL !!!!

[kvillefan1992]

Champion..I think you have a very valid point. I do feel Kville defended the spread much better this year against all teams that use it. No we didnt win against PP, and I think you are right. We are a lil behind times here. The last 2 years we got beat by teams who use this type of offense. However, with PP they had a STUD of QB AND RB!!! I'm curious when its going to come around here that we start playing this type of O, or learn how to stop it. Either Way something needs to be done.

[Guest Jmeek]

[quote name="exsetxn" post="730880" timestamp="1260906422"]
Two keys to stopping this spread offense. Pressure on the quarterback and you must be able to play man to man coverage (including jam recievers at the line). Both pressure on QB and jamming recievers disrupts timing and timing is a key element in spread offenses. Spread forces you to be able to man up, if you can't do that someone will always be open.  San Augustine showed how to do it a few years ago when they beat Tuscola Jim Ned (and Colt McCoy) for the state championship. Jim Ned ran the spread and essentially waltzed through the regular season and playoffs. After Jim Ned went through the San Augustine defense like exlax through a widow woman for the first td, San Augustine put those fast DBs on the line, jammed 'em, disrupted the timing, covered 'em like a blanket, put pressure on Mc Coy, again disrupting the timing, and shut them down. Won the game rather handily. Of course, this is jmho,  stopping any offense is usually easier said than done, and if I REALLY knew what I was talking about someone would pay me big bucks to run their offense ... LOL !!!!
[/quote] this was very well said to stop the spread you have to bring the cornerbacks up and put pressure on the WR and relly on the Safety for deep help, you have to have good corner backs that can play man. Against the spread you can also play a combo package with the corners in man the linebackers in a zone spy and the Saftey in a man under but in that package there is a chance of getting beat deep in one on one if the safety takes the wrong read. The fact is that alot of southeast Texas teams try to play there corners 5 to 7 yards off the WR and rely on the front line to try to rush the passer , the spread can eat that up all day with good protection. To answer your question Champion we here in southeast texas are way behind the curve college started running this spread about seven years ago and more and more teams are starting to run it in high school . acutually ACU out of Abilene was one the first school's to start running the spread with success and soon others followed unfortuley this area has'nt caught a clue yet. but this is point less because there is new defense forming the last couple of years that are figuring out how to defend the spread alot better like Alabama for example.

[ChampionEagles]

The thing to me that is obvious is our local teams are playing each other and crowning a champion. When we get out of our area we run into this type offense and yes some of the teams have "stud" players, but so do we. I would classify LeFrederick Ford as a stud. Our same old defenses we used to get that far are pretty much beaten in warmups. My question is not advocating changing coaches and running down all the teams in the Golden Triangle. How can a team from the Golden Triangle advance in the playoffs against teams that run the spread/zone read well. Do we take our outstanding athletes and build a defense that can play against this offense early on in the year or wait and try to build something during the playoffs? Personally I don't think you can make that kind of adjustment late in the year. I would sure like to see the Golden Triangle return to being a dominate force in Texas high school football. This forum is strictly talk any way you cut it. I think now is the time for talking about these kinds of issues.

[T-daddy]

Well my opinion far what its worth is champion here in jasper we said the same thing years ago. When we ran the spread and had success we had good qb play. I think the spread is best when ran by a smart qb that is athletic. The last several years we ran the spread we had an athletic qb but failed to make good decisions and was not an effective passer.  7 on 7 is strong in the dallas area including pilot point at younger ages and this is developing better offenses.  If the golden triangle doesnt follow suit they will continue to be behind.  Gilmer is another good example.

[ChampionEagles]

Good point about the 7 on 7. Seeing things repeatedly makes making the right choice easier. Hence a smarter QB as well as a better wide receiver. The more they do it the better they get. This still brings the question of how to defend it. The X's and O's as well as when to develop the defense. And I think everyone's opinion is valuable in some way if it is offered in a constructive manner. Karma +1 to T-daddy.

[jjspeed8]

Kirbyville did very good against Arp's Spread offense. They got to the QB and beat the line almost all night and that is how they beat Arp. Pilot Points Oline was huge and very well coached. They didn't make to many mistakes and were stronger than the Cats or blocked the cats should I say, and that is how they got beat. The spread was designed for a team that didn't have great linemen and could make up for it by spreading the defense out and forcing the defense to respect the pass. If a team has a great oline then the spread will exel like no other because not only does it make the pass a threat it then creats a run threat. The spread is about timing and reads so the defense has to find a way to break the recievers timing, but in reflect to that the DB has to be careful not to put to much pressure as getting burnt deep can happen or he could end up getting blocked easier and leaving a running lane. Most teams implement the Vere into the spread giving them multible options in the run pass game forcing the defense to have to watch for who has the ball then react.