McGwire admits using steroids in 1998

[Guest baseball25]

Don't hate the player hate the game. Major league baseball let this happen they knew what mcgwire and sosa were doing during the hour race but it brought baseball back and they just were sitting back and laughing and they take no blame.

[Guest baseball25]

Hr race

[PhatMack19]

[quote name="GCMPats" post="743119" timestamp="1263388793"]
I do not approve of steroid usage in athletics. However, someone explain to me how being "stronger" makes you a better baseball player?
[/quote]

Steroids don't necessarily make you stronger, they help your muscles recover after being torn down by lifting.  Which in turn helps you get stronger, because you are fresh every day.  MLB is a grind, playing 162 games in 185 days will take a toll on the body. Steroids helped these guys show up to the park every day feeling fresh and ready to go.

I imagine if you can show up to work everyday feeling your best, then you will be more successfull in whatever you do, especially sports.

[Guest GCMPats]

[quote name="PhatMack19" post="743676" timestamp="1263444703"]
[quote author=GCMPats link=topic=64624.msg743119#msg743119 date=1263388793]
I do not approve of steroid usage in athletics. However, someone explain to me how being "stronger" makes you a better baseball player?
[/quote]

Steroids don't necessarily make you stronger, they help your muscles recover after being torn down by lifting.  Which in turn helps you get stronger, because you are fresh every day.  MLB is a grind, playing 162 games in 185 days will take a toll on the body. Steroids helped these guys show up to the park every day feeling fresh and ready to go.

I imagine if you can show up to work everyday feeling your best, then you will be more successfull in whatever you do, especially sports.
[/quote]

Dr Pepper MUST be a steroid then.  ;D

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="PhatMack19" post="743676" timestamp="1263444703"]
[quote author=GCMPats link=topic=64624.msg743119#msg743119 date=1263388793]
I do not approve of steroid usage in athletics. However, someone explain to me how being "stronger" makes you a better baseball player?
[/quote]

Steroids don't necessarily make you stronger, they help your muscles recover after being torn down by lifting.  Which in turn helps you get stronger, because you are fresh every day.  MLB is a grind, playing 162 games in 185 days will take a toll on the body. Steroids helped these guys show up to the park every day feeling fresh and ready to go.

I imagine if you can show up to work everyday feeling your best, then you will be more successfull in whatever you do, especially sports.
[/quote]Hmmm? Sounds like you have some experience :D

[PhatMack19]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="743739" timestamp="1263481017"]
Hmmm? Sounds like you have some experience :D
[/quote]

Nope never tried them, but I do know alot of people who have and have worked out with those people.  When I get tired, they can keep going alot longer.  My point was that alot of people say it adds 5 feet, 10 feet to the ball flight or whatever.  I think its bigger benefit is that these guys endurance levels were greatly elevated during the time they were using, which led them to being fresher and in peak shape all season long.

[Guest GCMPats]

[quote name="PhatMack19" post="743908" timestamp="1263493462"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=64624.msg743739#msg743739 date=1263481017]
Hmmm? Sounds like you have some experience :D
[/quote]

Nope never tried them, but I do know alot of people who have and have worked out with those people.  When I get tired, they can keep going alot longer.  My point was that alot of people say it adds 5 feet, 10 feet to the ball flight or whatever.  [b]I think its bigger benefit is that these guys endurance levels were greatly elevated during the time they were using, which led them to being fresher and in peak shape all season long.[/b][/quote]

I agree. To me, that is where a player on PED's receives a "competitive advantage".

[Guest baseball25]

Who cares if they take steroids, still got to hit the ball and play the game, still  have to have a plan when you come up to bat, gotta be discpline,  you still gotta get ahead of the batter and make a good pitch.  Mcgwire,bonds,clemens, all those guys are HOF you just got idiots voting that never played the game before.

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="venom33" post="743154" timestamp="1263392896"]
you still have to be able to put the bat on the ball... steriods doesnt help the ol hand/eye coordination.

also, what about the pitchers who were using roids that k'd mcgwire throughout his career? or the fielders who made outstanding plays that otherwise wouldnt have been made had they not been juicing? we could go on and on and on....

there has been performance enhancers since baseball was invented, not all being roids!
[/quote]

greenies  ??? ???

[Guest baseball25]

and Mike schmidt admits using them and he's in the HOF

[baddog]

Babe Ruth had to bat against performance ''diminishers''. It was called a ''scuffed ball'' and the good old ''spitball''. Of course these were used to his advantage when pitching, but it sure wasn't something he injected into his body.

All of Babe's homeruns were hit with the pure body that God gave him. Babe liked to drink and he was a womanizer....both of which would contribute to lessening his performance on the field, but he succeeded anyway. Please enlighten me as to what enhancers were around since the beginning of baseball.

I'm sick of the hand to eye coordination argument. So you can hit a baseball. If you're not tearing up the batting average department, you won't see the HOF. Mcgwire hit a whopping [b].263 lifetime (wouldn't sniff the HOF), [/b] so if he wasn't hitting them out, we wouldn't even remember who he was. The main thing about steroids is that instead of hitting a harmless fly ball to left, it carried further due to the extra muscle strength and adrenaline from being ''pumped up'' more than normal.

None of today's juiced up goons could sniff the Babe's jock strap and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

[Guest baseball25]

lol babe faced guys throwing 80 lol and faced those guys like every single day, the game has change so much, Bonds was a 5 tool player coming out of ASU, Clemens was a monster at UT, u still got to play the game. I've been around tons of steroids users when i played college ball and u know what it didn't help them one bit, the got stronger but it didn't make them hit the ball, it made them throw harder but they still couldn't get ahead of the batter and throw a first pitch strike, they still couldn't spot up and throw there change up and curveball, you still got to have the ability.

[baddog]

[quote name="baseball25" post="744660" timestamp="1263616251"]
lol babe faced guys [b]throwing 80[/b] lol and faced those guys like every single day, the game has change so much, Bonds was a 5 tool player coming out of ASU, Clemens was a monster at UT, u still got to play the game. I've been around tons of steroids users when i played college ball and u know what it didn't help them one bit, the got stronger but it didn't make them hit the ball, it made them throw harder but they still couldn't get ahead of the batter and throw a first pitch strike, they still couldn't spot up and throw there change up and curveball, you still got to have the ability.
[/quote]

lol, Walter Johnson, one of the best pitchers of that era, threw 91 mph. Now I know that's not 97 or 98, but you said 80. Strangley enough, Babe had tremendous success against Johnson. Greg Maddux only throws about 88-90, but he throws to spots and has great movement, and he won 4 Cy Youngs in a row. You don't have to throw 95 mph to be successful or tough to hit.

These players also played during the ''live ball'' era. I wonder why they call it a live ball....because it moves more for pitchers and travels further for batters.

No one has ever said that these players wouldn't have been HR hitters, they just wouldn't have been able to beat Maris' single season record, or even come close to Ruth and Aaron.

Yeah, Bonds is a tool alright.  ;D

[Guest baseball25]

90 percent of guys throw in 90s these days. Maybe 15 percent threw that back then. Don't be a hater. Like I've always said don't hate the players hate the game. Mlb knew what was going on and they let it happen.

[Guest baseball25]

Did I ever say you got throw 90 to be good all I am saying is the game has change. That's why I said I've been around guys that took roids and they threw hard but they couldn't throw a strike for nothing and etc. There's might be a player 1 ever 20 yrs like maddux. Bonds might be a prick but he was there to do his job and that was put up numbers and that's what he did. Greatest player of alllll timeeeeee

[baddog]

[quote name="baseball25" post="745134" timestamp="1263703610"]
[b]Did I ever say you got throw 90 to be good all I am saying is the game has change[/b]. That's why I said I've been around guys that took roids and they threw hard but they couldn't throw a strike for nothing and etc. There's might be a player 1 ever 20 yrs like maddux. Bonds might be a prick but he was there to do his job and that was put up numbers and that's what he did. Greatest player of alllll timeeeeee
[/quote]

No, you laughed and said they threw in the 80s. How was I supposed to take it? No one has ever said that roids make pitchers throw strikes.

Like you said, the game has changed. Back then the ball was dead and you could throw spitballs, and if the ball hit the dirt around the plate, they didn't throw it out for a new one. A scuffed ball can do amazing things at any velocity. Babe Ruth had to endure those types of pitches and he still hit them out, without the aid of injecting performance enhancing drugs into his body. Bonds couldn't sniff Babe's jock without them, that's why he did it. He's the greatest cheater of all time.

[Guest baseball25]

Lol bonds has 7 mvps and 8 gold gloves. There isn't 400 400 player ever and he has 500 hrs and 500 steals. Stop being a hater he was a 5 tool player coming out of asu. Do you even know what 5 tool player is lol.

[venom33]

[quote name="baddog" post="744497" timestamp="1263594705"]
Babe Ruth had to bat against performance ''diminishers''. It was called a ''scuffed ball'' and the good old ''spitball''. Of course these were used to his advantage when pitching, but it sure wasn't something he injected into his body.

All of Babe's homeruns were hit with the pure body that God gave him. Babe liked to drink and he was a womanizer....both of which would contribute to lessening his performance on the field, but he succeeded anyway. Please enlighten me as to what enhancers were around since the beginning of baseball.

I'm sick of the hand to eye coordination argument. So you can hit a baseball. If you're not tearing up the batting average department, you won't see the HOF. Mcgwire hit a whopping [b].263 lifetime (wouldn't sniff the HOF), [/b] so if he wasn't hitting them out, we wouldn't even remember who he was. The main thing about steroids is that instead of hitting a harmless fly ball to left, it carried further due to the extra muscle strength and adrenaline from being ''pumped up'' more than normal.

None of today's juiced up goons could sniff the Babe's jock strap and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.
[/quote]




babe ruth is the affirmative action homerun king! he was never allowed to face any negro league pitchers. he didnt face all of the best pitchers of his time, only the white ones. we could "if" and "but" this thing to death....

oh and whether you like it or not players have been using anything they could to get an advantage over an opponent since the begining!

[venom33]

A Cheating Culture in Baseball
By Keith Dobkowski, MLB News Writer
December 4, 2004


A cheating culture has always existed in Baseball.  And the shock
over the BALCO steroid scandal should be redirected as a shock
over our shock.  Baseball has fooled us before and certainly will
fool us again. 

One look at baseball’s greatest players and you will find
cheating.  The list now includes Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and
Gary Sheffield.  They join the likes of Ty Cobb, Pete Rose,
Shoeless Joe Jackson, Babe Ruth, Rollie Fingers, Gaylord Perry,
Willie Mays, 1919 White Sox, 1970s Pirates, Hank Aaron, Sammy
Sosa, Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti, George Brett,
and dozens of others.

The cheating includes hall of fame players and champion teams. 
It is done for advantage, giving the player or team any possible
leg up on the competition. 

Whether it is an MVP injecting a steroid as Canseco, Caminiti and
now Giambi have admitted... 

Or scuffing or spitting on a ball as hall of fame players Perry and
Fingers did… 

Or corking a bat like homerun sluggers Sosa and Ruth…

Using too much pine tar like 3,000 career hits George Brett…

Taking Andro and hitting 70 homeruns in a season as Mark
McGuire did…

Using Cocaine before games like the 1970s Pittsburgh Pirates…

Throwing a World Series like the 1919 White Sox and Shoeless
Joe Jackson…

Betting on Baseball like Pete Rose…

Using amphetamines for energy like Mays and Aaron did…

Or using ‘the cream’ and ‘the clear’ as Bonds and Sheffield may
have…

Many of the stories we have heard such as Ty Cobb sharpening
his cleats to injure other players while stealing a base.  Or Tim
Raines sliding in certain manner to avoid breaking the vile of
cocaine he kept in his pocket for a mid-game energy boost have
become a part of baseball lore.

In a way we welcome the cheating.  We overlooked Andro in the
slugging summer of 1998 when McGuire and Sosa took on the
homerun record.  We overlooked Jose Lima throwing batting
practice balls during a game to Sosa in the last weeks of the ‘98
season.  Lima and therefore Sosa cheated and we did not care. 
We celebrated the long ball.

Furthermore there is hypocrisy.  [b]It praises Curt Schillling’s bravery
in game six against the Yankees, yet turns around and places the
tainting of the game upon Giambi’s shoulders.  Both players used
performance enhancers.  A pain killing injection allowed Schilling
to pitch and another injection allowed Giambi to hit.  Where is the
thick red line?[/b]
Players have always used performance enhancers to gain a
benefit.  It is not to dismiss the BALCO mess, but to realize that
baseball welcomes a cheating culture and knows it will survive. 
To properly judge BALCO and the players it is more important to
put everything in context. 

Is it just one player receiving a benefit, or is it a benefit
bestowed on the entire league.  That leads us to declare that
BALCO, while wrong, is a minor infraction when looking at the
history of the game.

When judging infractions we must look at the game and the
effects of the infraction.  A corked bat and a spitball both give the
player using it a huge advantage against their opponents.  The
player who cheats is the one who benefits.  And unless everyone
spits or corks there is not an even field. 

In comparison, today we are in a juiced era where most players
are using some form of performance enhancer.  Due the
widespread use the field becomes level.  And placed in context,
Ruth and Aaron never faced pitchers who were on performance
enhancers and the juice, as Bonds and today’s stars have. 
Bonds’ numbers therefore become legitimate.

The biggest infraction that baseball has seen is gambling. 
Gambling affects the roots of the game.  How it is called, how it is
managed and how much effort a players gives?  The Chicago
White Sox of 1919 and Pete Rose took advantage for their own
financial benefit and placed the basis of the game at risk.  A risk
not seen by juice, spit or cork…

Shockingly most Americans think Pete Rose should be reinstated,
put in the hall of fame and even allowed to manage again.  Yet
Rose may be the biggest cheater of them all.  Rose put the
integrity of the game on the line as he managed and bet on
baseball at the same time.  Yet we forgive and act with shock
that he is not in the hall.

As the BALCO scandal continues and looks to do so for the next
year or two, newscasters, especially those unwise to baseball
like 20/20’s Martin Bashir, will look to profit as well off the BALCO
story.  Baseball fans understand that cheating has long been
part of the game.  From Ruth to Rose to Bonds to whoever is
next, cheating will exist in baseball. 

[Guest baseball25]

Thanks venom

[adminbaberuth]

[quote name="baseball25" post="745151" timestamp="1263707902"]
Lol bonds has 7 mvps and 8 gold gloves. There isn't 400 400 player ever and he has 500 hrs and 500 steals. Stop being a hater he was a 5 tool player coming out of asu. Do you even know what 5 tool player is lol.
[/quote]

Bonds was 5 tool and one of the best. Look at the below stats and tell me who was the best all around player.


[i]From 1915 through 1919, Ruth was the best left-handed pitcher in the American League, compiling a record of 89-46 and posting an ERA of 2.18. The Bambino was also an incredible postseason pitcher. In three World Series games, Ruth pitched 31 innings, posted a 3-0 record and had an ERA of 0.87. Ruth also set a record for consecutive World Series shutout innings, with 29 2/3[/i]

[bullets13]

sheesh, who cares at this point.  we knew he was juicing when he got the record.  this is nothing new. 

[baddog]

[quote name="venom33" post="745165" timestamp="1263713080"]
A Cheating Culture in Baseball
By Keith Dobkowski, MLB News Writer
December 4, 2004


A cheating culture has always existed in Baseball.  And the shock
over the BALCO steroid scandal should be redirected as a shock
over our shock.  Baseball has fooled us before and certainly will
fool us again.  

One look at baseball’s greatest players and you will find
cheating.  The list now includes Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and
Gary Sheffield.  They join the likes of Ty Cobb, Pete Rose,
Shoeless Joe Jackson, Babe Ruth, Rollie Fingers, Gaylord Perry,
Willie Mays, 1919 White Sox, 1970s Pirates, Hank Aaron, Sammy
Sosa, Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti, George Brett,
and dozens of others.

The cheating includes hall of fame players and champion teams.  
It is done for advantage, giving the player or team any possible
leg up on the competition.  

Whether it is an MVP injecting a steroid as Canseco, Caminiti and
now Giambi have admitted...  

Or scuffing or spitting on a ball as hall of fame players Perry and
Fingers did…  

Or corking a bat like homerun sluggers Sosa and Ruth…

Using too much pine tar like 3,000 career hits George Brett…

Taking Andro and hitting 70 homeruns in a season as Mark
McGuire did…

Using Cocaine before games like the 1970s Pittsburgh Pirates…

Throwing a World Series like the 1919 White Sox and Shoeless
Joe Jackson…

Betting on Baseball like Pete Rose…

Using amphetamines for energy like Mays and Aaron did…

Or using ‘the cream’ and ‘the clear’ as Bonds and Sheffield may
have…

Many of the stories we have heard such as Ty Cobb sharpening
his cleats to injure other players while stealing a base.  Or Tim
Raines sliding in certain manner to avoid breaking the vile of
cocaine he kept in his pocket for a mid-game energy boost have
become a part of baseball lore.

In a way we welcome the cheating.  We overlooked Andro in the
slugging summer of 1998 when McGuire and Sosa took on the
homerun record.  We overlooked Jose Lima throwing batting
practice balls during a game to Sosa in the last weeks of the ‘98
season.  Lima and therefore Sosa cheated and we did not care.  
We celebrated the long ball.

Furthermore there is hypocrisy.  [b]It praises Curt Schillling’s bravery
in game six against the Yankees, yet turns around and places the
tainting of the game upon Giambi’s shoulders.  Both players used
performance enhancers.  A pain killing injection allowed Schilling
to pitch and another injection allowed Giambi to hit.  Where is the
thick red line?[/b]
Players have always used performance enhancers to gain a
benefit.  It is not to dismiss the BALCO mess, but to realize that
baseball welcomes a cheating culture and knows it will survive.  
To properly judge BALCO and the players it is more important to
put everything in context.  

Is it just one player receiving a benefit, or is it a benefit
bestowed on the entire league.  That leads us to declare that
BALCO, while wrong, is a minor infraction when looking at the
history of the game.

When judging infractions we must look at the game and the
effects of the infraction.  A corked bat and a spitball both give the
player using it a huge advantage against their opponents.  The
player who cheats is the one who benefits.  And unless everyone
spits or corks there is not an even field.  

In comparison, today we are in a juiced era where most players
are using some form of performance enhancer.  Due the
widespread use the field becomes level.  And placed in context,
Ruth and Aaron never faced pitchers who were on performance
enhancers and the juice, as Bonds and today’s stars have.  
Bonds’ numbers therefore become legitimate.

The biggest infraction that baseball has seen is gambling.  
Gambling affects the roots of the game.  How it is called, how it is
managed and how much effort a players gives?  The Chicago
White Sox of 1919 and Pete Rose took advantage for their own
financial benefit and placed the basis of the game at risk.  A risk
not seen by juice, spit or cork…

Shockingly most Americans think Pete Rose should be reinstated,
put in the hall of fame and even allowed to manage again.  Yet
Rose may be the biggest cheater of them all.  Rose put the
integrity of the game on the line as he managed and bet on
baseball at the same time.  Yet we forgive and act with shock
that he is not in the hall.

As the BALCO scandal continues and looks to do so for the next
year or two, newscasters, especially those unwise to baseball
like 20/20’s Martin Bashir, will look to profit as well off the BALCO
story.  Baseball fans understand that cheating has long been
part of the game.  From Ruth to Rose to Bonds to whoever is
next, cheating will exist in baseball.  


[/quote]

Very good post venom. I was aware of most of these supposed cheating scandals and I think it [b]laughable[/b] that you compare the spitball, corking, and scuffing to [b]injecting illegal substances[/b]. It's funny that you did bring up lots of these, because you should see that most were dealt with and persons were held responsible. What happenbed to George Brett's ''pine tar'' homerun? It was taken away because he had the tar one inch too high on the bat. I actually saw this game and only Billy Martin could have caught that. Nevertheless, it didn't count.

What happened to Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe, the eight men out,....they were held accountable and banned from baseball.

That's the first I have heard of Aaron and Mayes cheating...seriously.

No era is “tainted” and they all are “tainted;” all one can do is make conclusions about the cheaters who get caught. “Everyone should be punished” is just a silly cop out; by that standard, no punishment for anyone is fair unless every single person guilty of the crime is apprehended. In the end, that’s all your “argument” boils down to: it’s unfair for one cheater to suffer the consequences of his cheating if any one else got away with theirs. The person who escapes justice sets the standard. Lots of crimes go unpunished, but it is not unfair to punish those who get caught.

[Guest baseball25]

Mlb baseball didn't have a steroid policy untill like 2002. Mlb needs to take blame. Sosa and mcgwire brough baseball back and mlb knew what was happening but they loved every bit of it bec they were getting ratings you heard no complaining back then.

[Ruckdad]

That is not true.  There was no testing for steroids before 2002, but you can't superced state and federal law just because you are a baseball player.  If taking something is illegal it doesn't make it right to take it just because you want to be a better baseball player.  MLB has had a banned substances list for many years, but there just never was testing.  And the players themselves - through the union - are just as much to blame for this whole fiasco.