Lamar football facing tough SLC teams early

[bigred360]

[quote name="TexasTerror" post="822053" timestamp="1280506296"]
[quote author=Ruckdad link=topic=71281.msg822047#msg822047 date=1280505771]I don't expect us to win at McNeese - but I do expect us to compete as soon as possible.  That's what the transfers are for.  They will bring the younger guys along better than two years of nothing but losing to more experience teams could do.[/quote]

I understand the purpose for transfers. I just do not understand the LARGE amount of transfers...

[quote author=Ruckdad link=topic=71281.msg822047#msg822047 date=1280505771]What school are you assisting so we can see the blueprint for future success?[/quote]

You'll just have to wait and find out. Hard to go public on something that has not been made public...  ;)
[/quote]

For you to be so pro SLC and FCS it would seem to me with 3 SLC teams ranked in Top 25 polls you would understand the reason Lamar went heavy on juco transfers. Lamar has to have early success (wins-losses) to have a good fan base because our region is known for HS football. Coach Woodard and his staff have to make in-roads into these communities and get them excited for local college football on Saturday's. This will not happen if Lamar is getting blown out of stadiums especially versus SLC teams. So to just be recruiting freshman in our situation would be suicide for our program. We can't wait 3-4 years down the road to be competitive.

Guess you just don't understand our unique situation.  

[TexasTerror]

[quote name="ForeverADog" post="822057" timestamp="1280506746"]I think transfers early are a great thing. It will help us get started early while working the freshman in for some experience in the years to come. Also our team is already balanced with freshman to juniors. What are the other upstarts going to do when they lose 40+ seniors four years from now?[/quote]

ODU has 24 transfers in year two of their program. Just 2 or 3 from FBS, the rest JUCOs. Some are new, most played last year. They won seven games against Div I competition in year one.

Georgia State has 26 transfers in year one of their program.

Even though it is only seven more guys, it is significant due to the roster/scholarship/travel squad size, Lamar has 33 transfers in year ONE of their program.

[quote author=NorthoftheBorder link=topic=71281.msg822061#msg822061 date=1280507278]I think the large number of transfers could be for several reasons.  1) Lamar is ramping up their program a little faster and probably is playing a much tougher schedule earlier in the timeline and joining the SLC quicker.  They will need some more experienced and developed players to compete  2) I buy the argument that I saw posted on the board earlier that Woodard also knows the JC ranks a little better right now so he has some inroads that he has taken advantage of.[/quote]

I agree on both accounts in the tougher schedule (namely due to joining the SLC quicker) and Woodard's familiarity with JCs.

[quote author=bigred360 link=topic=71281.msg822062#msg822062 date=1280507442]For you to be so pro SLC and FCS it would seem to me with 3 SLC teams ranked in Top 25 polls you would understand the reason Lamar went heavy on juco transfers. Lamar has to has early success (wins-losses) to have a good fan base because our region is known for HS football. Coach Woodard and his staff have to make in-roads into these communities and get them excited for local college football on Saturday's. This will not happen if Lamar is getting blown out of stadiums especially versus SLC teams. So to just be recruiting freshman in our situation would be suicide for our program. We can't wait 3-4 years down the road to be competitive. [/quote]

So you are stating that the community can't deal with a rough start to the program after the newness wears off and could be "suicide"? Haven't they been dealing with awful Cards basketball for some time now, though still leading the league in attendance by a large margin?

A successful program does not happen over night and putting a band-aid on a wound may stop it from bleeding temporarily, but you need to think long-term. Stitches may help! :)

Then again, we'll see. I hope I eat crow and Lamar has more success rapidly. I just do not believe it will come to be sustained success via this method, but at least Tubbs is out. We all know how he dealt with a coach, who has not had success...

[quote author=bigred360 link=topic=71281.msg822062#msg822062 date=1280507442]Guess you just don't understand our unique situation.[/quote]

The one your school created?

[bigred360]

1. Yes, I am stating the 'community can't deal with a rough start'. We don't want to be like SHSU and average 4,000 for our home games.

2. Agree a successful program doesn't happen over night but there are schools that find some success early on in their program like Florida Atlantic. 

3. I get the fact you don't like Coach Tubbs but you don't know the situation with Coach Roc. If Lamar fired him it would have cost about $280,000 to buy out his contract. Then to hire another HC, you are talking an additional $140,000 or so yearly. That is over $400,000 which with starting a football program at the same time Lamar didn't have just sitting around. I guess SHSU who for the past eight seasons averaged 20 wins but couldn't put butts in the stands nor keep their HC from leaving for ULL.  ::) I guess he'll get more fan support there as SHSU home average attendance is about 2,000. If Lamar averaged 20 wins for the past 8 seasons our home attendance would be about 6,000-8,000.  ;)

I don't think Lamar had anything to do with how popular HS football is in SE Texas. So I'm not sure what you meant by your last comment.

[TexasTerror]

[quote name="bigred360" post="822116" timestamp="1280517307"]1. Yes, I am stating the 'community can't deal with a rough start'. We don't want to be like SHSU and average 4,000 for our home games. [/quote]

That was due to weather and the head coach. SHSU is a walk-up group and not the season ticket-type. Recent attendance prior to last year shows SHSU draws in the 8k-9.5k annually. Not great, but twice the number you shared.

[quote author=bigred360 link=topic=71281.msg822116#msg822116 date=1280517307]2. Agree a successful program doesn't happen over night but there are schools that find some success early on in their program like Florida Atlantic.  [/quote]

FAU went 4-6 and 2-9 before making the playoffs in year three. Lost 40-7 in their opener of college football to Slippery Rock. It took several years before they were rolling, going 11-3 in year three. Of note, FIU who started a year later has not had a winning record. Comparisons can be made between Schnelly/Coker and Strock/Woodard.  Strock and Woodard are eerily alike. Both had time in Arena and NFL Europe. Schnelly and Coker had a big year or few at The U. Interesting...

[quote author=bigred360 link=topic=71281.msg822116#msg822116 date=1280517307]3. I get the fact you don't like Coach Tubbs but you don't know the situation with Coach Roc. If Lamar fired him it would have cost about $280,000 to buy out his contract. Then to hire another HC, you are talking an additional $140,000 or so yearly. That is over $400,000 which with starting a football program at the same time Lamar didn't have just sitting around. I guess SHSU who for the past eight seasons averaged 20 wins but couldn't put butts in the stands nor keep their HC from leaving for ULL.  ::) I guess he'll get more fan support there as SHSU home average attendance is about 2,000. If Lamar averaged 20 wins for the past 8 seasons our home attendance would be about 6,000-8,000.  ;)[/quote]

Always go back to attendance and ignoring your team's lack of success.

I've always said that I'd be interested in comparing the amount of students at each school's basketball games.

[bigred360]

Blame it on the weather.  ??? ??? SHSU may have had some games with 8k-9k but that wasn't the average for the whole season. Since you are the expert please post your attendance figures for the past five seasons.

FAU lost to Slippery Rock because 20 or so players had not made it through the clearinghouse. Let's be honest about Larry Coker. He won with another HC's players. Once they were gone the program suffered and he lost his job.

I'm willing to bet with football here our home basketball student attendance will be up.

I sorry if I ignored Lamar team success in the post. I'll throw in the Lady's basketball team and their success. Plus, they averaged about 1,400 per home contest. About what your men's team averaged with the best HC in the conference. Oh, that's right he is gone now.  :D

[NorthoftheBorder]

From TT.....
[shadow=red,left]FAU went 4-6 and 2-9 before making the playoffs in year three. Lost 40-7 in their opener of college football to Slippery Rock. It took several years before they were rolling, going 11-3 in year three. Of note, FIU who started a year later has not had a winning record. Comparisons can be made between Schnelly/Coker and Strock/Woodard.  Strock and Woodard are eerily alike. Both had time in Arena and NFL Europe. Schnelly and Coker had a big year or few at The U. Interesting...[/shadow]


Comparisons are easy to make and I agree that sometimes they prove out but then again sometime they don't.  The Lamar faithful, although some would have liked a big name (big names have gone to new colleges before and not duplicated the success they had in previous jobs), I believe are very supportive and behind coach Woodard.  They will give him a fair chance, and I believe are all very upbeat and positive about his chances to succeed in the long haul.  Time will tell, but it always does in all matters of life.

[TexasTerror]

[quote name="bigred360" post="822126" timestamp="1280519326"]Blame it on the weather.  ??? ??? SHSU may have had some games with 8k-9k but that wasn't the average for the whole season. Since you are the expert please post your attendance figures for the past five seasons. [/quote]

Wouldn't you blame it on the weather if walk-up crowds were a big issue?

Though, I'll admit I was wrong. 9.2K on the low end, 10k on the higher end! Again, this past year was absysmal between weather and the head coach. Guess you can quiet down now...

Rank School G Attendance Average
29. Sam Houston St. 5 50,381 10,076 - 2008
38. Sam Houston St. 5 48,137 9,627 - 2007
38. Sam Houston St. 5 47,347 9,469 - 2006
36. Sam Houston St. 4 37,074 9,269 - 2005

[quote author=bigred360 link=topic=71281.msg822126#msg822126 date=1280519326]I'm willing to bet with football here our home basketball student attendance will be up. [/quote]

You would like to think it will have a direct impact. I'd be interested to see the numbers too.

[quote author=bigred360 link=topic=71281.msg822126#msg822126 date=1280519326]I sorry if I ignored Lamar team success in the post. I'll throw in the Lady's basketball team and their success. Plus, they averaged about 1,400 per home contest. About what your men's team averaged with the best HC in the conference. Oh, that's right he is gone now.  :D[/quote]

Yep, continue to ignore our team's success and focus more on attendance. What happens when the bunch that is waiting to relive the 1970s and 1980s can no longer come to games?  ;D

[UNLV]

Terror, here LU's 2010 basketball attendance 53,469.

http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2010/07/2010-college-basketball-season_28.html

And SHSU football according to you.

29. Sam Houston St. 5 [b]50,381 [/b] 10,076 - 2008
38. Sam Houston St. 5 [b]48,137 [/b] 9,627 - 2007
38. Sam Houston St. 5 [b]47,347 [/b] 9,469 - 2006
36. Sam Houston St. 4 [b]37,074 [/b] 9,269 - 2005

It looks like LU basketball average more fans then SHSU football in Season.
Am I correct?

BTW, this was a down year for LU.
I wonder if LU basketball makes more money than SHSU football..

[TexasTerror]

[quote name="UNLV" post="822163" timestamp="1280533149"]It looks like LU basketball average more fans then SHSU football in Season. Am I correct?[/quote]

For Lamar's sake, I hope you do get your undergrad at UNLV. With your poor understanding of math, wouldn't want to think that Lamar admitted you!

You posted the TOTAL attendance and compared it to the TOTAL attendance for Bearkat football. I assure you that SHSU football out-averaged Lamar's basketball.

[CardAmbassador]

[quote name="TexasTerror" post="821985" timestamp="1280493144"]
[quote author=CardAmbassador link=topic=71281.msg821952#msg821952 date=1280461036]1. There was coverage on the athletic site, don't know what your talking about here.[/quote]

Do I have to remind you?

Oh wait - the [url=http://www.lamarcardinals.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/lama-m-footbl-archive.html]archives link[/url] on the web site does not work. Even the fans on this board noticed the LARGE gaps in coverage. If I recall correctly, there were no write-ups in advance of scrimmages (wouldn't that be something that would get your fans interested?)

And another reminder, via [url=http://www.collegesportingnews.com/entry.php?17-Lamar-s-Underwhelming-Start-Yields-to-Season-Ticket-Success]College Sporting News[/url]...

[quote]3) Lack of Promotion. It seems many things have fallen under the radar. [b]This past fall, the team was practicing and even conducted several scrimmages. There was limited coverage and what coverage came, seemed to hail from the local television station and the Beaumont Enterprise.[/b]

If Lamar has interest in recruiting outside of Southeast Texas and even if that is their sole area of focus, they need to publicize their program. There are many ways to do this and I am sure they can do this at minimal cost.[/quote]

That wasn't that long ago - I know we all have memory lapses from time to time!

[quote author=CardAmbassador link=topic=71281.msg821952#msg821952 date=1280461036]2. LOL, really? You have delusions of grandeur. I'm pretty sure that a PR campaign was in the mix long before you came around. I think you over estimate your self sometimes.[/quote]

I was not the only one complaining about the lack of coverage...

[quote author=CardAmbassador link=topic=71281.msg821952#msg821952 date=1280461036]3. How is this a problem? I haven't read an article in any publication that has cited this as a problem, not one. I think he is going about recruitment in just the right way. It doesn't matter though, all of the discussion we have had with you on this point is worthless though. It's all opinion, yours and only yours, vs. ours. If more people were criticizing this move besides your very skeptical self I might be concerned. [/quote]

Found an article from [url=http://www.collegesportingnews.com/entry.php?37-Getting-Things-in-Place-at-UTSA-Lamar-and-UCA]College Sporting News[/url] which discusses Lamar's recruiting philosophy from Feb. 7, 2010...

[quote]During their first two recruiting classes, Lamar has leaned heavily on travels. To date, over [b]25 players have transferred to the school from other institutions[/b], including 20 junior college players. [b]UTSA on the otherhand has just two transfers[/b], one of which comes in from Penn State and the other, from Division II Texas A&M-Kingsville.[/quote]
[/quote]


LU did announce the spring and fall scrimmages on the athletic site and on the .edu site. I attend LU, and I read LU news 7 days a week , there was coverage, I'm sorry your memory is failing you. I'll admit the coverage was not huge, but LU doesn't have the type of money for an all out media campaign, we have built tons of dorms and facilities in the past 5 years. I'm sure that we have some significant loans to pay off before we can increase the schools advertising.

The article you post does not criticize the two schemes of recruiting, it contrast them. TT, you need to separate opinion from fact.

In regards to student attendance it depends on the opponent. The Texas State game probably had 1.5K students. I would say we at the least average close to 1K.

[TexasTerror]

[quote name="CardAmbassador" post="822171" timestamp="1280535402"]LU did announce the spring and fall scrimmages on the athletic site and on the .edu site. I attend LU, and I read LU news 7 days a week , there was coverage, I'm sorry your memory is failing you. I'll admit the coverage was not huge, but LU doesn't have the type of money for an all out media campaign, we have built tons of dorms and facilities in the past 5 years. I'm sure that we have some significant loans to pay off before we can increase the schools advertising. [/quote]

Hard to prove you right or wrong when the - http://www.lamarcardinals.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/lama-m-footbl-archive.html - is not working.

It's old news now that Lamar had some serious lapses in coverage, particularly last fall. There were no recaps or anything of the fall. Coverage picked up some in the spring, but was still relatively quiet from the official school site.

I am not talking about an all-out media campaign, but an online presence on the OFFICIAL school athletic web site. You guys are doing football promotions the right way no.

Either way, having an actual football team on the field and playing games will lead to the type of coverage expected of a Division I program with football.

Old news. We can debate the other merits of the argument, but even those are useless - because we got to see how things play out.

[UNLV]

[quote name="TexasTerror" post="822164" timestamp="1280533330"]
[quote author=UNLV link=topic=71281.msg822163#msg822163 date=1280533149]It looks like LU basketball average more fans then SHSU football in Season. Am I correct?[/quote]

For Lamar's sake, I hope you do get your undergrad at UNLV. With your poor understanding of math, wouldn't want to think that Lamar admitted you!

You posted the TOTAL attendance and compared it to the TOTAL attendance for Bearkat football. I assure you that SHSU football out-averaged Lamar's basketball.
[/quote]Let me SHSU it down for you. Yes I compared LU Basketball to SHSU football, TOTAL...I didnt say average per game. End of the season TOTAL.

So my question to you, did LU basketball make more than SHSU football?

[CardAmbassador]

[quote name="TexasTerror" post="822164" timestamp="1280533330"]
[quote author=UNLV link=topic=71281.msg822163#msg822163 date=1280533149]It looks like LU basketball average more fans then SHSU football in Season. Am I correct?[/quote]

For Lamar's sake, I hope you do get your undergrad at UNLV. With your poor understanding of math, wouldn't want to think that Lamar admitted you!

You posted the TOTAL attendance and compared it to the TOTAL attendance for Bearkat football. I assure you that SHSU football out-averaged Lamar's basketball.
[/quote]

Maybe he meant seasonal average as in year to year. We all understand BB plays far more games.

As far as coverage of Football on the Athletic site, we had a migration to a completely different site at the end of the spring semester. This can cause things to be lost. I wouldn't have known about the game if it weren't advertised. But I did know about the game and so I went. 

[TexasTerror]

[quote name="UNLV" post="822194" timestamp="1280545726"]So my question to you, did LU basketball make more than SHSU football?[/quote]

Per http://www.ope.ed.gov

2008-09 SHSU Football Revenue: $1,891,498
2008-09 Lamar Basketball Revenue: $1,271,778

Even with your UNLV 'funny math', nope...

[UNLV]

[quote name="TexasTerror" post="822227" timestamp="1280578199"]
[quote author=UNLV link=topic=71281.msg822194#msg822194 date=1280545726]So my question to you, did LU basketball make more than SHSU football?[/quote]

Per http://www.ope.ed.gov

2008-09 SHSU Football Revenue: $1,891,498
2008-09 Lamar Basketball Revenue: $1,271,778

Even with your UNLV 'funny math', nope...
[/quote]Close enough to laugh. LU football will make more than SHSU and have more fans at the games.

[bigred360]

I'm interested in why SHSU doesn't sell more season tickets? If that is the case then you do need huge walk up crowds for good attendance figures. Funny though since you talk so highly of your program. Then blame poor attendance on the weather and your HC. How about "true fan's" who just want to see the Bearkats play?
Guess you didn't have the figures for 2009?

Still averaging 9K-10K isn't great for a established program! I bet McNeese, SFA and UCA have better attendance figures over the same period of time.

As for as basketball attendance goes there are our season ticket holders who are generally older and our students. I have no doubt that adding football, marching band and all that come with football there will be more students at our basketball games starting in the fall.

I guess you didn't read my last comment. It was comparing our Lady Cardinals program to your men since they both won conference and I compared the attendance which shows our ladies almost average as much as your men's team.

I believe I answered the comment about our attendence and the "older crowd". I hope "Rooting for Hooten" works out for you guy's in Huntsville or ya'll might average 1K.  ;D

[kingkat99]

Lamar Football would only make more money as long as ol daddy umphrey and his buddies keep buying up suites and tickets to make it look good...What was Lamars football attendance for the last 20 years??? Oh yeah ZERO and Im guessing you'll have a better excuse for the program dying last time other than the Golden Triangle being the fair-weather fan capital of Texas...it new now so everyone will come out and watch but wait till woodard and co fall on their face and the old folks that make up the cardinal club get to old to attend and you'll be back to basketball as your flagship sport again...

[bigred360]

Kingkat99, nice first post. Yes, Walter Umphrey and others have made huge donations the past few years. But, they haven't just donated to football but also for the Shelia Umphrey Rec Center, the baseball program, the nursing program and the engineering program come to mind.

You're really smart to figure out our attendance figures for the past twenty years since we haven't participated in the sport since 1989.

"Golden Triangle being the fair-weather fan capital of Texas." No, this region is known for our communities being very supportive of HS football. I think Huntsville is better suited for that statement. I wouldn't attack any other schools attendance when your schools best sport (men's basketball) averages about 1,500 per contest. ::)

Your last statement will not happen because our students voted on a football fee and it passed with 78% of the vote. This will lead to a 2.2 million dollar budget with the current student population (attendance figures for Lamar students will probably go up with football back on campus so the 2.2 million dollar budget will probably go up as well) surwithout "ol daddy Umphrey and his buddies," the success of selling suits or even attendance.

All those things will just add to the athletic budget.

[kingkat99]

I live here in se Texas and I am aware of how the communities support their hs teams and what not but I am also aware that ten years ago all you saw were aggie shirts and stickers on cars and now it's all ut junk...so you will see that when the new wears off if you guys aren't worth a flip the attendance will drop like a rock...even at shsu where just 5 years ago we had double digit attendance numbers and all it took was a useless sack of crap coach(who is now your oc) to run our program in the ground...people will come and support a good product win or lose but when you aren't even competitive as a consumer not buying the product is how you complain and get someones attention and it worked as we have a new coach...I am a season ticket holder to SHSU Football and I never quite going but the seats around me slowly emptied as time went on...Hopefully you'll be as good as you think...oh and as for bball who gives a rip...

[bigred360]

I'm sure you see the same things at SHSU. You are very close to A&M and yeck the QB (Dustin Long) who lead you to one of your best seasons didn't graduate from SHSU but chose to go back to A&M for his degree.  ;D

[ForeverADog]

So if Lamar is the "Fair weather capital of Texas" what does that make Sam if they don't even show up when yall do win? The most unsupportive fan capital of Texas? I'm starting to get confused here.

[kingkat99]

You do see the same at shsu...and yes our fan base is very fair weather as the majority of most fcs schools are, but at least ours has never gotten to the point of a program dying all together...look I hope LU does well since I'm contributing through my wifes fees for he masters degree...

[bigred360]

[quote name="kingkat99" post="822286" timestamp="1280596049"]
You do see the same at shsu...and yes our fan base is very fair weather as the majority of most fcs schools are, but at least ours has never gotten to the point of a program dying all together...look I hope LU does well since I'm contributing through my wifes fees for he masters degree...
[/quote]

Then what was the point of your first post? The then Lamar Board of Regents voted to kill the program and if you ask the vast majority of people around SE Texas since you live here or at Lamar in general they would tell you that was the worse decision they ever made. The Cardinal Club had already sold 5,000 season tickets for the next season and this caused there to be some very angry people because of broken promises.

So, SHSU has never gotten to a point of their program dying but it should not have happened here at Lamar either. If Lamar was part of the TSUS back then I'm sure they would not have let the program die.

That has to be hard for you. Having to pay for your wife's masters degree at LU.

[CardAmbassador]

[quote name="kingkat99" post="822286" timestamp="1280596049"]
You do see the same at shsu...and yes our fan base is very fair weather as the majority of most fcs schools are, but at least ours has never gotten to the point of a program dying all together...look I hope LU does well since I'm contributing through my wifes fees for he masters degree...
[/quote]

[url=http://bigredinsider.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=105&func=view&catid=5&id=878]LINK: Why LU wont get rid of Football this time around. [/url]

Here is a post I authored on why I don't think LU will get rid of football, in fact I know they wont. SHSU is in more danger of program cuts than we are, have you seen our endowment growth and figures? You guys have had a significant amount of margin on us in terms of enrollment until recently yet we still have a higher Endowment. I know SHSU hates to admit it but our school is moving in the right direction, and football will just accelerate the process. I'm not saying  SHSU isn't moving in the right direction, only that our direction is undeniably good for the next couple of years. LU System was short sighted, there is no way the same decision will be made twice.

[kingkat99]

The point of my original post was why do you wait until you actually play the first down of football before you throw other programs under the bus for attendance numbers.....truthfully why don't you wait until the end of the first round of three year committments people had to make in order to get a decent seat and the new wears off before we talk about problems of other programs.   I will say one advantage you will have is that most alumni dont  leave the area after graduation where as there isn't much to keep folks around huntsville.  I drive there 5 saturdays every fall  after my kids soccer games and not many people want to do that.