Legal troubles and Athletics

[CraigS]

What are your opinions?

Attending school is the law, if a child has legal issues (Claification: I am not talking about routine traffic stops....refering to jail time incidents.), the school districts must work around these issues to continue providing an education, be it DAEP or ISS. However, extraciricular ativities are "privaledges" not "rights". Therefore if a student has legal issues should they be allowed to participate at all...."zero tolerance"!

This conversation comes by what seems to be a double standard of what would be called UIL events (so to speak) and that of athletics! If you are a school rep in many organizations, such as band, drill team, cheerleading, etc, you are required to live by a standard which is enforced by way of a "constitution", no such rules or "constitution" exist for athletics.

Within the school districts, there are rules, there are "employee handbooks" for ALL employees (janitors to superintendents) there are "student handbooks" for ALL students (the lowest ranking student to the Valdictorian) so the debate is: Should there be a "extraciricular hadbook" for ALL students representig the school (band members to football players)

My stance on this is simple as I stated above, representing the school is a PRIVILEDGE not a RIGHT! All students "choosing" to represent the school should have to live to a higher standard than others just "attending" school. It should not matter what event you are participating....UIL Math....Debate Team....Drill Team....Cross Country....Softball....Football. The consequences of your actions should be "exactly" the same!

[tvc184]

They should all be the same no matter that activity.

I am not sure about the being held to a "higher standard" though. They should just live to the standard of other students, not higher. The standard for society and students should be that you aren't out breaking the law by robbing the local store, selling dope, etc. If other students need to be to class on time, UIL participants should not be made to be there 10 minutes early. No need for the "higher standard", just "the standard".

[CraigS]

[quote name="tvc184" post="823345" timestamp="1281104580"]
They should all be the same no matter that activity.

I am not sure about the being held to a "higher standard" though. They should just live to the standard of other students, not higher. The standard for society and students should be that you aren't out breaking the law by robbing the local store, selling dope, etc. If other students need to be to class on time, UIL participants should not be made to be there 10 minutes early. No need for the "higher standard", just "the standard".
[/quote]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public. If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?

And you answered the other part....ALL should have same treatment...band / football if there are violations....without "extra" expectation from either or an additional set of rules such as constitutions, etc!

[tvc184]

[quote name="Tigers9" post="823365" timestamp="1281110734"]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public.[size=10pt][b] If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?[/b][/size][/quote]

No.

[thetragichippy]

[quote name="tvc184" post="823367" timestamp="1281111110"]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823365#msg823365 date=1281110734]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public.[size=10pt][b] If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?[/b][/size][/quote]

[b]No.[/b]
[/quote]

HAIL NO!

[CraigS]

[quote name="thetragichippy" post="823372" timestamp="1281112301"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823367#msg823367 date=1281111110]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823365#msg823365 date=1281110734]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public.[size=10pt][b] If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?[/b][/size][/quote]

[b]No.[/b]
[/quote]

HAIL NO!

Obviously I have specifics, just trying to make sure I'm not the one reaching with my belief! So to clarify your opinions a little more. If a kid is arrested for theft, or passession of drugs, gone to jail for truancy, they should not be allowed to participate........period!

There should not be a form of punishment by the coaches, then allowed to play in ANY of these examples....correct?
[/quote]

[tvc184]

[quote name="Tigers9" post="823417" timestamp="1281122953"]
[quote author=thetragichippy link=topic=71445.msg823372#msg823372 date=1281112301]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823367#msg823367 date=1281111110]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823365#msg823365 date=1281110734]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public.[size=10pt][b] If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?[/b][/size][/quote]

[b]No.[/b]
[/quote]

HAIL NO!
[/quote]

Obviously I have specifics, just trying to make sure I'm not the one reaching with my belief! So to clarify your opinions a little more. If a kid is arrested for theft, or passession of drugs, gone to jail for truancy, they should not be allowed to participate........period!

There should not be a form of punishment by the coaches, then allowed to play in ANY of these examples....correct?
[/quote]

Truancy is a school issue like acting up in class or a discipline problem. That should be up to the school and the coach. While it is true that you can be arrested for truancy, you can also be arrested for disrupting the classroom or failing to signal a turn while driving to school. In fact, every citation issued by an officer is an arrest but you are released on your own recognizance. I don't think kids should lose UIL privileges for citations.

Those are not serious issues and are between the schools and coaches. I was talking about (and thought that I said) robberies, selling drugs, using drugs and other serious crimes. If you are selling dope, you should not be allowed the privilege to play sports or UIL sponsored events. If you are committing armed robberies... same answer. Breaking into homes? See Ya!

[CraigS]

[quote name="tvc184" post="823423" timestamp="1281123886"]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823417#msg823417 date=1281122953]
[quote author=thetragichippy link=topic=71445.msg823372#msg823372 date=1281112301]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823367#msg823367 date=1281111110]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823365#msg823365 date=1281110734]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public.[size=10pt][b] If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?[/b][/size][/quote]

[b]No.[/b]
[/quote]

HAIL NO!
[/quote]

Obviously I have specifics, just trying to make sure I'm not the one reaching with my belief! So to clarify your opinions a little more. If a kid is arrested for theft, or passession of drugs, gone to jail for truancy, they should not be allowed to participate........period!

There should not be a form of punishment by the coaches, then allowed to play in ANY of these examples....correct?
[/quote]

Truancy is a school issue like acting up in class or a discipline problem. That should be up to the school and the coach. While it is true that you can be arrested for truancy, you can also be arrested for disrupting the classroom or failing to signal a turn while driving to school. In fact, every citation issued by an officer is an arrest but you are released on your own recognizance. I don't think kids should lose UIL privileges for citations.

Those are not serious issues and are between the schools and coaches. I was talking about (and thought that I said) robberies, selling drugs, using drugs and other serious crimes. If you are selling dope, you should not be allowed the privilege to play sports or UIL sponsored events. If you are committing armed robberies... same answer. Breaking into homes? See Ya!
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification!

As I said, I do have specific circumstances of interest. All those examples are "actual" and of course accompanied by police reports by way of the public information act. The other side is evident due to 2 a days starting and these players are on the field. When asked about that, Im only told that its a internal issue and they will be punished by the AD (Head football coach) before being allowed to play!

On the otherhand a cheerleader (JV) was kicked off the squad for missing a 15-20 minute (Varsity) pregame event of running through a runthrough poster with young children. This was due to the "constitution" stating the rules.

I dont have issues with the cheerleader being removed (it was the rule) just cant figure out how the ISD allows the football players to play with arrest records, or why the AD should allow it either!

By the way, these issues have been taken up with reps from the ISD, basically I was told the Cheerleaders have a constitution and athletics does not! So the next step would be? Public forum (with names and paperwork to prove it) Local paper....how do you stop this double standard?

[thetragichippy]

[quote name="Tigers9" post="823435" timestamp="1281127208"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823423#msg823423 date=1281123886]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823417#msg823417 date=1281122953]
[quote author=thetragichippy link=topic=71445.msg823372#msg823372 date=1281112301]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823367#msg823367 date=1281111110]
[quote author=Tigers9 link=topic=71445.msg823365#msg823365 date=1281110734]

I understand and agree with your description of "higher standard" I guess my point was more along the lines of....the school still has an obligation to provide an education to you even if you are out robbing stores or selling dope, after the law has released you back to the public.[size=10pt][b] If a kid has proven to be a "robber" or a "dope seller" should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities?[/b][/size][/quote]

[b]No.[/b]
[/quote]

HAIL NO!
[/quote]

Obviously I have specifics, just trying to make sure I'm not the one reaching with my belief! So to clarify your opinions a little more. If a kid is arrested for theft, or passession of drugs, gone to jail for truancy, they should not be allowed to participate........period!

There should not be a form of punishment by the coaches, then allowed to play in ANY of these examples....correct?
[/quote]

Truancy is a school issue like acting up in class or a discipline problem. That should be up to the school and the coach. While it is true that you can be arrested for truancy, you can also be arrested for disrupting the classroom or failing to signal a turn while driving to school. In fact, every citation issued by an officer is an arrest but you are released on your own recognizance. I don't think kids should lose UIL privileges for citations.

Those are not serious issues and are between the schools and coaches. I was talking about (and thought that I said) robberies, selling drugs, using drugs and other serious crimes. If you are selling dope, you should not be allowed the privilege to play sports or UIL sponsored events. If you are committing armed robberies... same answer. Breaking into homes? See Ya!
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification!

As I said, I do have specific circumstances of interest. All those examples are "actual" and of course accompanied by police reports by way of the public information act. The other side is evident due to 2 a days starting and these players are on the field. When asked about that, Im only told that its a internal issue and they will be punished by the AD (Head football coach) before being allowed to play!

On the otherhand a cheerleader (JV) was kicked off the squad for missing a 15-20 minute (Varsity) pregame event of running through a runthrough poster with young children. This was due to the "constitution" stating the rules.

I dont have issues with the cheerleader being removed (it was the rule) just cant figure out how the ISD allows the football players to play with arrest records, or why the AD should allow it either!

By the way, these issues have been taken up with reps from the ISD, basically I was told the Cheerleaders have a constitution and athletics does not! So the next step would be? Public forum (with names and paperwork to prove it) Local paper....how do you stop this double standard?


[/quote]

If you can get all the documents and they are public record, go to the media. 

[PN-G bamatex]

[quote name="tvc184" post="823345" timestamp="1281104580"]
They should all be the same no matter that activity.

I am not sure about the being held to a "higher standard" though. They should just live to the standard of other students, not higher. The standard for society and students should be that you aren't out breaking the law by robbing the local store, selling dope, etc. If other students need to be to class on time, UIL participants should not be made to be there 10 minutes early. No need for the "higher standard", just "the standard".
[/quote]

I disagree. Extra-curricular activities require a huge amount of time and dedication. Band, football, volleyball, drill team, and cheerleader practice all start 2-4 weeks before the first day of school. UIL Academics groups and other sports teams all have regularly scheduled practices before and after school. Sponsors and students alike don't like putting in all that work just to be embarrassed by one person. Besides that, these students represent the school and ultimately the community behind it. I don't know how things work at other schools, but at PN-G, that is taken VERY seriously. I have seen students sent home from UIL meets for being five to ten minutes late and band members run ten or more laps for things that most people would consider miniscule.

It's simple. If you put on the uniform, you live by a higher code. If you choose not to live up to those standards, you will be disciplined and possibly cut from the program.

Now obviously, small things like a speeding ticket aren't going to get you into trouble with the school, but I wouldn't get into too much trouble beyond that.

[Otter]

Sounds like the school districts administration needs to be embarrassed.  Going to the media is a good idea, but officially working through the school board by getting on their agenda is how your going to win the battle.

[Bucof2010]

Did they get arrested and found innocent?

[tvc184]

[quote name="Tigers9" post="823435" timestamp="1281127208"]
.................................I dont have issues with the cheerleader being removed (it was the rule)[size=10pt][b] just cant figure out how the ISD allows the football players to play with arrest records, or why the AD should allow it either![/b][/size]

By the way, these issues have been taken up with reps from the ISD, basically I was told the Cheerleaders have a constitution and athletics does not! So the next step would be? Public forum (with names and paperwork to prove it) Local paper....how do you stop this double standard?

[/quote]

Arrested for what though? You can almost literally be arrested for anything in Texas. If you are picking up your mail early one morning and have to cross the street and there is no traffic but a cop sees you jaywalking, he can arrest you and bring you to the county jail. So you have an arrest record and for what? Jaywalking.

As far as group rules or constitutions, I guess to some extent, each can make his/her own rules. if the head coach for the girl's volleyball team has a rule and the girls know it, then that is a rule. Does the football team have to follow the same rules? I don't think so. I also think that each head coach can issue punishment as he/she sees fit for that team.

I do think that the district needs a blanket code of conduct for UIL sanctioned events/teams however and those should not be deviated from. Get caught with illegal drugs for example and you need to lose you UIL eligibilty for at least that year. Get arrested for a felony and the same results. I think the UIL needs to have some basic rules of eligibility and conduct that is some cases takes the school out of it. Just like no pass-no play is a UIL rule, not an individual school district rule. If you can remove them from competing for grades, I don't see how or why you couldn't for drugs or felonies.

[bullets13]

"arrest" and "conviction" are two different things.  if i'm arrested, but proven innocent, or at least not prosecuted, i shouldn't be punished outside of the law considering i wasn't even punished BY the law.

[tvc184]

[quote name="PN-G bandkid" post="823439" timestamp="1281129448"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823345#msg823345 date=1281104580]
They should all be the same no matter that activity.

I am not sure about the being held to a "higher standard" though. They should just live to the standard of other students, not higher. The standard for society and students should be that you aren't out breaking the law by robbing the local store, selling dope, etc. If other students need to be to class on time, UIL participants should not be made to be there 10 minutes early. No need for the "higher standard", just "the standard".
[/quote]

I disagree. Extra-curricular activities require a huge amount of time and dedication. Band, football, volleyball, drill team, and cheerleader practice all start 2-4 weeks before the first day of school. UIL Academics groups and other sports teams all have regularly scheduled practices before and after school. Sponsors and students alike don't like putting in all that work just to be embarrassed by one person. Besides that, these students represent the school and ultimately the community behind it. I don't know how things work at other schools, but at PN-G, that is taken VERY seriously. I have seen students sent home from UIL meets for being five to ten minutes late and band members run ten or more laps for things that most people would consider miniscule.

It's simple. If you put on the uniform, you live by a higher code. If you choose not to live up to those standards, you will be disciplined and possibly cut from the program.

Now obviously, small things like a speeding ticket aren't going to get you into trouble with the school, but I wouldn't get into too much trouble beyond that.
[/quote]

Maybe we are saying the same thing in a different way but I don't call that being held to a higher code. That is just the rules of the organization. Obviously a non-athlete doesn't have to be to football practice early as he is not playing. If a football player violates that rule, it is an organization rule violation. A "higher standard" is when you do something that is not a rule of the school or organization but of life in general. It is like maybe having a teacher fired for having an extra-marital affair and it going public and embarrassing the school. It is not illegal and it doesn't really have anything to do with the school per se. That is being held to a higher standard. A teacher that is fired for not showing up for work on time is not being held to any different standard than any other worker and is simply violating a school rule.

If a student showed up 10 minutes before a meet and is removed, that was punishment for a team rule. That would be like a football coach telling me to go run some bleachers and I tell him to take a hike. That is not a higher standard but a team rule that I will do what the coach says as long as it is not illegal. A higher standard is not involved or at least not the way I look at a higher standard. As a police officer I can be fired for things that are not specifically against our policies, that are not illegal and not immoral. THAT is being held to a higher standard. If I break a known rule, that is just breaking a rule.

I think the "higher standard" phrase is sometimes tossed around for a feeling of importance and maybe a way to gain compliance. We athletes or UIL competitors are different because we are held to a higher standard. So is it really a different standard or just team rules?

[tvc184]

[quote name="bullets13000" post="823506" timestamp="1281156893"]
"arrest" and "conviction" are two different things.  if i'm arrested, but proven innocent, or at least not prosecuted, i shouldn't be punished outside of the law considering i wasn't even punished BY the law.
[/quote]

I agree if the charges are dropped or you are found not guilty.

[CraigS]

In the cases Ive mentioned:

Case one: skipped school to the point the truancy officer took him to court. The judge ordered him to community service and probation...the community service was not done in the time alotted. The judge found the kid in contempt of court then sentenced him to 3 days in jail! (which he served) This same student was in DAEP for another school violation (threatening to shoot a teacher), he was skipping to avoid DAEP time. By the the time all of this was over, so was school for that year. The student did not serve out the year in DAEP as the ISD had issued him. The stance of the ISD was that, that was last YEAR....nothing we can do about it. Of course nothing from the AD....
Current status: graduated, but did play football the entire year last year. Was later indicted on a felony charge and spent the rest of the year away from the campus!

Case two: Kid was seen by police officer coming out of school building, he was arraigned by this officer. The officer called the city police being he was a county officer. The city officials contacted the AD (athletic building) the AD instructed the police to "ticket" him he would take care of it. Charges went from possible felony theft of a building, to a simple misdemenor theft charge! Source: the county official that arraigned him in the first place....he knows my frustration with this ISD so he shared his story to show how they (police officers) are FRUSTRATED as well. They do their jobs and the higher ups allow them back on the streets as if nothing happened.
Current status: playing football this fall

Case three: Kid was ARRESTED for possession of marijuana (obviously the arresting police officer saw something or had something to make the arrest) Current status:  Playing football this fall

Another case: kid caught with drug paraphinilia (marijuana seeds) on campus. ISD, states, it was "only" seeds...sentences kid to ISS....no affect to athletic status.
Current status: graduated. However, later indicted on 2 other felony charges.

Arrested or convicted? As I understand the legal process. First (unless its on site at the time of the crime) the officer has to believe there is probable cause, the Judge will then issue a probable cause affidavit, they get arrested....DA decides if he thinks there is enough to take to GJ....GJ either no bills or true bills....if GJ true bills (they obviously thought there was enough to indict) then the jury or plea bargaining begin.

Point: once a person is arrested, there were several law enforcement personnel that had enough evidence that thought a crime had been committed by that person....or none of those steps would have been taken in the first place.

Point: Don't confuse INNOCENT til proven guilty with PRESUMED innocent til proven guilty! Do not assume that if a plea is taken it PROVES they did not DO the original crime!

If a student finds themselves in any of these situations, they may attend school or be released back into society......THE quetion is....should they be allowed to participate in extraciricular activities representing their school.....yes they HAVE (maybe) paid their "debt" to society....but should the PRIVILEDGE of representing the school still be an option to that kid.....at least for that year.

[WOSgrad]

Just a warning to all involved the following rules:

15) Please do not post unsubstantiated rumors, suspicions or slanderous comments about anyone - this includes non-members of the forums, and;

18 ) The bashing of any particular coach, player, referee, etc will not be tolerated. This includes issues involving their personal lives, coaching/playing style or performance, past experiences, etc.

Let's just make sure that our specifics don't get too specific.

[CraigS]

[quote name="WOSgrad" post="823579" timestamp="1281200816"]
Just a warning to all involved the following rules:

15) Please do not post unsubstantiated rumors, suspicions or slanderous comments about anyone - this includes non-members of the forums, and;

18 ) The bashing of any particular coach, player, referee, etc will not be tolerated. This includes issues involving their personal lives, coaching/playing style or performance, past experiences, etc.

Let's just make sure that our specifics don't get too specific.
[/quote]

Fair enough, eventhough I didnt in the first place (because I was a Moderator and I KNEW the rules). HOWEVER, I have seen news articles and other documents on here making the subject FACT. and if in FACT they are participating on these particular teams and at these particular ISD.....why would that not be allowed (of course with documentation to support) (police reports....football rosters....etc) ....just a question!

[WOSgrad]

[quote name="Tigers9" post="823581" timestamp="1281201902"]
[quote author=WOSgrad link=topic=71445.msg823579#msg823579 date=1281200816]
Just a warning to all involved the following rules:

15) Please do not post unsubstantiated rumors, suspicions or slanderous comments about anyone - this includes non-members of the forums, and;

18 ) The bashing of any particular coach, player, referee, etc will not be tolerated. This includes issues involving their personal lives, coaching/playing style or performance, past experiences, etc.

Let's just make sure that our specifics don't get too specific.
[/quote]

Fair enough, eventhough I didnt in the first place (because I was a Moderator and I KNEW the rules). HOWEVER, I have seen news articles and other documents on here making the subject FACT. and if in FACT they are participating on these particular teams and at these particular ISD.....why would that not be allowed (of course with documentation to support) (police reports....football rosters....etc) ....just a question!
[/quote]

Perhaps if you have such documentation, you should get on the agenda at the ISD against which you have a greivance and provide same to them.  At setxsports.com, we have never been in the business of bringing embarrassment to high school aged men and women. The issue you raised here is a relevant one and can be discussed here without doing that, let's continue to do so.

[tvc184]

Yep, been there, seen that.

I could tell you similar stories and they aren't rumors because I was the one putting on handcuffs. Sometimes the cover ups go deeper than you may think.

[Guest rykerx144]

[quote name="tvc184" post="823593" timestamp="1281209170"]
Yep, been there, seen that.

I could tell you similar stories and they aren't rumors because I was the one putting on handcuffs. Sometimes the cover ups go deeper than you may think.
[/quote]

i second that!!  I worked as a school officer and worked with alot of the school officers in the area.  Youd be surprised!!

[CraigS]

[quote name="rykerx144" post="823616" timestamp="1281216447"]
[quote author=tvc184 link=topic=71445.msg823593#msg823593 date=1281209170]
Yep, been there, seen that.

I could tell you similar stories and they aren't rumors because I was the one putting on handcuffs. Sometimes the cover ups go deeper than you may think.
[/quote]

i second that!!   I worked as a school officer and worked with alot of the school officers in the area.  Youd be surprised!!
[/quote]

NO, I wouldnt be surprised.

That's why I bring this topic up.....it is absolutely disgraceful! But until the general public becomes educated about this (or if they do know, start caring) it will continue to get worse. The very students that are allowed to continue along these lines of behavior will get worse and worse......until they what? Kill someone! All because these AD's and ISD's (and not all of them) are willing to give their souls for the all mighty win!

Just in the few examples I have given, the trend has already begun.....showing arrest for multiple felony charges!

I do know the system, "a charge" does not mean guilty, true. However, mistakes happen, it is not likely that these officers are arresting these kids just to be mean to them.....Id say give the officers the benefit of the doubt, and punish the perpatrators at least from participating for the year in question.....if for nothing else.....they shouldnt have been in a place to have to defend "charges" in the first place!

Heck, OF's AD kicks kids off teams for an entire year for missing 2 practices! (Disclaimer: not sure if this is fact, I read it on another thread.) Which by the way seems to be way overkill to me. But, then again, they didnt get arrested for theft or drugs!