Questions for Bluedove

[stevenash]

1.  What is the point value of a hard driving 360 reverse slam dunk after dribbling behind your back and through your legs and you left your defender flat footed and dumb founded?

2.  What is the point value of a spot up 15 foot jumper?


3..  How much energy was used in each of the above?

[east texas bb]

It seems you want to start arguments all the time.  The point value is the same on all the above. But just like the other thread you pick pieces of the thread that coincide with your arguments without answering the questions asked of you.  You try to turn peoples words around on them to fit your mindset.  You are the worst  I have seen on the board about this, it seems like you try to bait people into arguements just like this thread.  If you knew anything about me you would know I am the most fundamental purist of the game and love to see team play, but for some reason you want to compare the Celtics and Heat which no one has even mention.  I dont know you and would probably like you if we sat down and talked but you are skewed if you think a team of spot up shooters could beat a team of players who can create their own shot and shoot the spot up shots as well.  You try to make your comparison based on the Celtics and Heat which I dont know where that came from.  But your coparision is under false assumption because the Celtics are not ALL spot up shooters vs. the Heat who you claim are all shooters who create off the dribble.  I simple said that a spot up shooter is not as valuable as someone who can do both.  Debate this:  This is the greatest example I can give you, which player is better.  Rajon Rondo or Steve Nash.  One player is one dimensional and the other can get his team involved (hence create shots for himselfs and others and shoot the open shot).  If you say Rondo, you have completely lost it.  ANSWER THE QUESTION directly. AND ANSWER this, would you rather have a Spot up Shooter like Ray Allen or someone who can create his own shot and shots for others(they go hand in hand) and shoot the open shot as well.  Be honest and dont get off subject. 

[BLUEDOVE3]

Give me a guard who can do all those things. I prefer to use someone like Isiah Thomas as an example. But Nash and Thomas were dangerous in their own right. Oh, I have an old high school teammate who led the nation in scoring one year.  A spot up shooter. His team sucked.

[bone]

I like a good Fullback. ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="925401" timestamp="1291429933"]
It seems you want to start arguments all the time.  The point value is the same on all the above. But just like the other thread you pick pieces of the thread that coincide with your arguments without answering the questions asked of you.  You try to turn peoples words around on them to fit your mindset.  You are the worst  I have seen on the board about this, it seems like you try to bait people into arguements just like this thread.  If you knew anything about me you would know I am the most fundamental purist of the game and love to see team play, but for some reason you want to compare the Celtics and Heat which no one has even mention.  I dont know you and would probably like you if we sat down and talked but you are skewed if you think a team of spot up shooters could beat a team of players who can create their own shot and shoot the spot up shots as well.   You try to make your comparison based on the Celtics and Heat which I dont know where that came from.  But your coparision is under false assumption because the Celtics are not ALL spot up shooters vs. the Heat who you claim are all shooters who create off the dribble.  I simple said that a spot up shooter is not as valuable as someone who can do both.  Debate this:  This is the greatest example I can give you, which player is better.  Rajon Rondo or Steve Nash.  One player is one dimensional and the other can get his team involved (hence create shots for himselfs and others and shoot the open shot).  If you say Rondo, you have completely lost it.  ANSWER THE QUESTION directly. AND ANSWER this, would you rather have a Spot up Shooter like Ray Allen or someone who can create his own shot and shots for others(they go hand in hand) and shoot the open shot as well.  Be honest and dont get off subject.  
[/quote] Pardon me, sir but only YOU have DECLARED Rondo to be one dimensional.  He leads the league in steals and assists as well.  The fact that he is not a proficient shooter is ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT a reason to declare him as one dimensional.  It appears it is ok to compare Steve Nash to Rondo but not the Heat to the Celtics- Interesting-  My original premise, if you will recall is that a  spot up shooter has a value on the court and is very helpful to the one-on-one specialist.  I DID NOT (and you know this) declar the heat to be ALL shooters who create off the dribble.  I said there were three of them (more than on most teams) of all star callibre and to date it had NOT gotten the job done, thus concluding there is more to this game than one-on one efficiency.  I would take Rondo in a heartbeat.  If you think I have lost it, so be it.  I once again wish to remind you that I have one opinion and you have one.   Nothing more.  Nothing less.  If you think Rondo is one dimensional, I aint the only one who has "lost it".  Hope you saw the game last night.  He made quite a few passes that were quite a bit more than "average", as you say.  You  also now have added in another dimension:  First it was a shot creator and now it is a shot creator who can shoot the open shot as well.  Ray Allen is no shot creator but he is very valuable to the team.  They need what he has to offer MORE than they need another shot creator.  That, in my opinon is a FACT and I would ask you to dispute that.  If one develops some sort of point value for a steal, an assist, a rebound and a shooting percentage and combines the values, I want you to tell me how Rondo does NOT become an integral part of the conversation.  ONe more item regarding the "starting arguments accusation"- to whom was this thread addressed?

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="925518" timestamp="1291433953"]
Give me a guard who can do all those things. I prefer to use someone like Isiah Thomas as an example. But Nash and Thomas were dangerous in their own right. Oh, I have an old high school teammate who led the nation in scoring one year.  A spot up shooter. His team sucked.
[/quote]

2 points are 2 points, regardless of how they were attained.  Now the fact that his team sucked couldnt possibly have anything to do with the other 10 or 12 teammates, could it?  If he could have "shaked and baked" with the best of them instead of shooting well but all other circumstances were unchanged, would his team no longer have sucked?

[jabu84]

i would want somebody who can create their own shot.  All spot up shooters use movement to create space for their shot, so in a way you can say they create their own shot.

[stevenash]

[quote name="jabu84" post="925739" timestamp="1291465479"]
i would want somebody who can create their own shot.  All spot up shooters use movement to create space for their shot, so in a way you can say they create their own shot.
[/quote]  I think you have a valid point there.  Never thought it about it that way.  In any case, for the Rondo detractors, here are the latest statistics (as per wikipdedia) on Nash and Rondo
Points per game  Nash 20.3  Rondo 11.2
Free throw percentage  Nash 87%  Rondo 47%
Rebounds per game  Rondo 4.8  Nash 2.5
Assists per game  Rondo 14.3  Nash 8.9
Steals Per Game  Rondo 2.5  Nash 1.0
Blocks per Game Rondo .25  Nash .09
Field Goal Percentage  Nash 50.3%  Rondo 50%

[east texas bb]

I dont even read but the first few lines of your posts then scan the rest and once again you didnt answer my questions.  Just answer the questions.  You are comparing Nash on the decline of his career and the peak of Rondos which is not much of a peak.  If you will look up the stats, I believe Nash has 2 MVPS in the entire league which Rondo has no chance of ever coming close.  Nash has one of the highest if not the highest field goal percentage in the league and he shoots jumpers.  Rondos field goal percentage is high because he cant shoot and he only shoots layups.  7th and 8th graders can make those.  MY COMPARISON OF NASH AND RONDO WAS NOT STATS, THATS WHERE YOU ALWAYS MISS THE POINT, IT IS THAT ONE CAN CREATE HIS OWN SHOT AND SHOTS FOR OTHERS AND TAKE A GAME OVER IF HE NEEDS TO. (AT THE PEAK OF HIS CAREER)Just answer my questions man.  It dosent make sense to think that a spot up shooter is more valuable than a MVP.  Pull the curtain back man, you will see a whole new world. 
Secondly, I never said nothing about "uughs" and "aahhs" from the crowd.  If you knew me I could care less about that.  What makes a team go are the players that can create a shot off the dribble.  You ever heard the term "players make plays".  Big coaches term.  I love team ball over individual ball, my point on creating your own shot was if you can do that you can also creat shots for the entire team.  One player is 1 dimensional and the other player makes the team go.  You need to re evaluate you outlook on the game.

[stevenash]

Pardon me, sir, but unless you are Phil Jackson, I think I will just continue with my "outmoded" and "unelightened" outlook on the game.  I didnt understand the "rules" of our conversation at first, but I think I understand them now.  Am going to llist them, and feel free to correct me wherever I am wrong.

1.  An NBA All Star Point guard who is first team all defensive and playing in the NBA finals two of the last three years is, at best just average, one dimensional, and relatively speaking, not a very good passer. 

2. When you suggest comparisons to  Steve Nash, that is" basketball knowledge" at its absolute finest.  However, if I respond with additional comparisons involving the same people, it is unfair to compare a career upswing with a career decline. (But, of course, the MVP comparison is a fair one for one guy in the league 15 years and another one for 4)

3.  Rondos shooting percentage is only good because he shoots a lot of layups.  Defenders encourage his outside shot by laying off of him by three to four feet and yet he shoots a lot of layups.  This cant be, because he is incapable of generating a shot.  (layups are shots in case you didnt know)  I guess all of his layups come from snowbirding.  Wouldnt you agree it takes an exceptional talent to score only on snowbirding and yet be at the top of the steals list and be an ALL NBA FIRST TEAM DEFENDER?
4.  I am not permitted to claim that a spot up shooter has a value to a team and a  place on most teams.  If I make any comment about that,  what I am really saying is that 5 spot up shooters can beat 5 shot creators.
5.  Trying to justify my claim by comparing the Celtics and Heat is a poor analogy (still struggling with fully accepting that "rule")

6.  If you make a statement about basketball, it is the ABSOLUTE gospel and cannot be questsioned.  WHen I make my statement, it is simply coming from a guy who "needs to re-evaluate this outlook"

Now that I fully grasp the "rules", perhaps I can do a little better.  AS just an aside, inthe NCAA final last year, it didnt seem to me that Kyle Singler was much of a shot creator but he sure seemed to be pretty important to his team as in "no prayer for DUke to be there without him"

[Betrayed]

Oh I get it now Nash, that's whyyy Miami signed (Spot up Shooter) Mike Miller?? Because every teams needs 1 to just stand in the corner. Just like Jordan had Kerr, Houston had Mario Elie, Boston has Ray, Everybody had Horry and Hj has Sutherland.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Scalabrine" post="925890" timestamp="1291488659"]
Oh I get it now Nash, that's whyyy Miami signed (Spot up Shooter) Mike Miller?? Because every teams needs 1 to just stand in the corner. Just like Jordan had Kerr, Houston had Mario Elie, Boston has Ray, Everybody had Horry and Hj has Sutherland.
[/quote]

Thats what I believe but that is just my naive and uninformed thought. But I recently found out I dont know what I am talking about.  I am dumb enough to believe there is real value to those with the shooting skills.  I happen to think that Ray Allen has won a number of big games for the Celtics in recent years by virtue of his "spot up shots".  To my ignorant way of thinking, there is a need for both and they compliment each other quite well.  Heck, I even believe that if you have a Ray Allen , it makes the shot creation process quite a bit better for Paul Pierce.  Be forewarned, though, to embrace this theory is an illustration of ignorance.

[east texas bb]

Man you get your feelings hurt too easily. No one said you did not know basketball, we are still waiting on you to tell us whether a "playmaker" is more or less valuable than a spot up shooter.  So far you have made the argument that they are.  If that is so, you DO need to re evaluate your thoughts on the game of basketball.  On the upside, is there a place for a spot up shooter? Heck yeah.  But not 5 on the court at the same time. They wouldnt get the ball down the court.

THE SPOT UP SHOOTER IS DEPENDANT ON THE PLAYMAKER TO GET HIM A SHOT.  Right or wrong?  He will get some shots within the team offense but the majority will be off of someone helping on defense on the guy who is making the play.

If you believe Steve Nash is "basketball knowledge" then why the heck are you argueing with me?  He is a playmaker (one who can create a shot for himself, others, and hit the open shot).

Rondo (4) years and Nash (15).  Concerning Nash's 2 MVP's.  Please do not tell me you think he will be a MVP.

[east texas bb]

ANd a spot up shooter cutting and moving is not creating their OWN shot.  They are using screens and the benifit of the defense helping on the playmakers to get his shot.  So there goes another arguement down. 

Name the top 5 all-time guards.  I would bet you anything they could create their own shot.

[CThoops]

I want Kobe or LeBron.  ;D

[BADSANTA]

Nash has had a great career and is one of the best passing and scoring guards ever. Only other point he compares to is Stockton. I agree that a spot up shooter is non existing with a  penetrating point.

[stevenash]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="925933" timestamp="1291492946"]
ANd a spot up shooter cutting and moving is not creating their OWN shot.  They are using screens and the benifit of the defense helping on the playmakers to get his shot.  So there goes another arguement down. 

Name the top 5 all-time guards.  I would bet you anything they could create their own shot.
[/quote]
Bob Cousy did very little creating and same goes for Magic Johnson, who was not a very good outside shooter anyway.  Believe  me, my feelings arent hurt.  I also dont remember John Havlicek making a lot of exciting moves either..I would further suggest that the top  5 guards are not the top 5 because of creating shotsand I would rather look at the top 5 teams than the top 5 guards.  When I referred to basketball knowledge, I was SARCASTICALLY referring to the point that you thought it was all right to make the NASH comparisons until I brought up some stats, at which time you SUDDENLY declared the comparisons unfair.  As for answering questions, I notice there has never been a response the ONE DIMENSIONAL POOR PASSING guard who leads the league in steals and assists, was in last years NBA All star Game and is a first team all NBA defender.   Permit me to suggest if you find fault with that logic that its NOT ME who NEEDS to reevaluate.  For the final time, my point is not that one is more important than the other.  My point is that it takes both to be successful and the Celtics ( I know, I know- these examples are prohibited) are a prime example of that.  Ray Allen and Allen Iverson came to the pros the same year.  Obviously, Allen Iverson was the better "creator".  I can PROMISE/GUARANTEE you that if the Celtics had acquired Iverson instead of Allen (or another creator vs a shooter) the results would not have been even close.  Cant wait to hear how this is disputed.  I will maintain (and you will NEVER alter my thought either with insults or unjustified condescension)that the best and most successful teams employ a blend of the two qualities. Even the Heat, who is overflowing with creators, know that they need the Eddie Houses and Mike Millers of this world to compete.  And finally, for you to suggest that Mr. Rondo is one dimensional and near average fails to give you credibility with anyone but yourself.  By the way, running full speed to the three point line and pulling up(perfectly balanced, I might add) on that dead run to drain a three is very much a created shot and it is one that Mr. Allen is 1000 times better at than LeBron Or Kobe.  I would further suggest to you that Mr. Rondo can get to the basket most anytime he wants to.  And only a fool flips up a reverse layp against an opponent a foot taller when the best shooter in the league is poised to make three instead of two from one of his "average" passes.  In earlier years, I still remember the Celtics Lakers rivalries.  Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were far superior shot creators but they usually finished second to Boston.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="925960" timestamp="1291494541"]
Nash has had a great career and is one of the best passing and scoring guards ever. Only other point he compares to is Stockton. I agree that a spot up shooter is non existing with a  penetrating point.
[/quote]
And I am suggesting that a competent spot up shooter makes it much easier for the point to penetrate.

[east texas bb]

You missed out on the biggest point, Iverson didnt create for anyone but himself, that is not the kind of guard I am talking about. I can not stand Allen Iverson. He is an Allen Iverson maker not a playmaker.  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND YOU DO IT IN DIFFERENT POSTS TO.  YOU TAKE PART OF THE ANSWER AND REARRANGE IT TO FIT WHAT YOU NEED. Why would you pick Allen Iverson?  Because you know he is selfish and it fits your argument.  You should be a politician. I think everyone is agreeing except you that a playmaker is more valuable than a spot up shooter.  I agree that the best teams emply both, but the one that makes the team go is the one that can do it all while the other waits and hopes he gets a kickout.  And I know you say your feelings are not hurt but actions speak louder than words.  And listing your guards, you missed a few of the top 5, a couple of big ones.  Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James.  any of those vs your best shooter and sorry to tell you but your golden boy Ray Allen is not the best shooter in the NBA right now.  Steve Nash has a higher percentage than anyone over his career.  He is what you call a 180 shooter, 50% from the floor, 40% from the 3 point land, and 90% from the line.  There are only 5 in the NBA right now that shoot that high and Nash leads them and Allen is 3rd or 4th.  I already said Ray Allen could create shots himself and you told me he couldnt. So which is it?
I will address your infatuation with Rondo, yes he is a good defender, one of the best in the league.  He is a very average passer I dont care what the stats say, if one eyed one legged man was passing to the guys he does they would have alot of assists. He is a very below average shooter.  That makes him 1 dimensional. Shaq shoots a higher percentage than Rondo, does that mean he is a better shooter? No, it means he takes all his shots close to the goal. Rondo is not even a top 10 guard in the league. I can name 10 better than him any day of the week.  If the Celtics had someone else they would run the tables.  Watch the next game and notice one thing.  When Nate Robinson goes in watch how much better the Celtics become, because someone has to guard him instead of play play4-5 feet off of him. And Nate is a very average guard.  I will pick my best playmaker and you pick your best spot up shooter.  Mine is Michael Jordan.  Who is yours? 

[east texas bb]

In your earlier post about the Celtics, why did you "inadvertanly" leave out one of the reasons the Celtics were so good, the play maker Larry Bird. 

Were you a spot up shooter in HS?

Seriously, I dont think we are going to agree.  I know you have to have the last word as you do on all of your post because you are either very bitter or very arrogant.  I am not going to post again on this topic, I have alot more to do.  We can argue another time.

But if you will do me a favor just answer me on the question, I would like to know. 

Do you think a playmaker is more or less valuable than a spot up shooter?  A simple more important or less important will do.  Thats the least you can do, I came out DIRECTLY and answered your question about Rondo. 

[east texas bb]

ANd you didnt answer on my other question, you made the assumption because of lack of years that in the future Rondo will be MVP of the League.  I would love to hear that one.

[stevenash]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="926415" timestamp="1291514133"]
ANd you didnt answer on my other question, you made the assumption because of lack of years that in the future Rondo will be MVP of the League.  I would love to hear that one.
[/quote]

A guard who is not in the top ten in the league DOES NOT, I R E P E A T  DOES NOT get selected to the NBA ALL STAR team or TEAM USA.  Hate to burst your bubble, but those making those selections forgot more about basketball than you will EVER know.  I made no assumption that Rondo will be a future MVP, you ASSUMED that I assumed.

Boston has the resources to have secured the services of several top notch guards, among them Jason Kidd.  Again I will suggest that the coaching staff/management of the greatest professional basketball franchise in history probably has a SLIGHT edge over you in knowing who is best suited to occupy their point guard position. (even though I am quite confident you disagree on that point too)  It also was interesting how you stated you didnt want to discuss this anymore but posted three consecutive times.  I think a playmaker (as opposed to a shot generator) is very crucial to a team.  I also know that a playmaker is more effective if he has a legitimate shooting threat on his side and more likely to win a championship which seems to be the aim of every player/team.  Larry Bird is my favorite player of all time but I dont remember him doing much in the way of moves other than to shoot over  people or use a couple of well placed fakes.  Jordan, Kobe had/have all the moves.  But if thats all it takes, the Lakers wouldnt have had to purchase the appropriate support for Kobe >  How did Jordan do in Washington?  Could it be that support was lacking?

[stevenash]

I also failed to congratulate you on your unique ability to determine "arrogance and/or bitterness via a few brief exchanges on a basketball board with a total stranger.  Few have that much omniscience.

[sleepy]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="926386" timestamp="1291512923"]
You missed out on the biggest point, Iverson didnt create for anyone but himself, that is not the kind of guard I am talking about. I can not stand Allen Iverson. He is an Allen Iverson maker not a playmaker.  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND YOU DO IT IN DIFFERENT POSTS TO.  YOU TAKE PART OF THE ANSWER AND REARRANGE IT TO FIT WHAT YOU NEED. Why would you pick Allen Iverson?  Because you know he is selfish and it fits your argument.  You should be a politician. I think everyone is agreeing except you that a playmaker is more valuable than a spot up shooter.  I agree that the best teams emply both, but the one that makes the team go is the one that can do it all while the other waits and hopes he gets a kickout.  And I know you say your feelings are not hurt but actions speak louder than words.  And listing your guards, you missed a few of the top 5, a couple of big ones.  Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James.  any of those vs your best shooter and sorry to tell you but your golden boy Ray Allen is not the best shooter in the NBA right now.  Steve Nash has a higher percentage than anyone over his career.  He is what you call a 180 shooter, 50% from the floor, 40% from the 3 point land, and 90% from the line.  There are only 5 in the NBA right now that shoot that high and Nash leads them and Allen is 3rd or 4th.  I already said Ray Allen could create shots himself and you told me he couldnt. So which is it?
I will address your infatuation with Rondo, yes he is a good defender, one of the best in the league.  He is a very average passer I dont care what the stats say, if one eyed one legged man was passing to the guys he does they would have alot of assists. He is a very below average shooter.  That makes him 1 dimensional. Shaq shoots a higher percentage than Rondo, does that mean he is a better shooter? No, it means he takes all his shots close to the goal. Rondo is not even a top 10 guard in the league. I can name 10 better than him any day of the week.  If the Celtics had someone else they would run the tables.  Watch the next game and notice one thing.  When Nate Robinson goes in watch how much better the Celtics become, because someone has to guard him instead of play play4-5 feet off of him. And Nate is a very average guard.  I will pick my best playmaker and you pick your best spot up shooter.  Mine is Michael Jordan.  Who is yours?  
[/quote]

East texas BB.  Come on man.  It is clear you watch basketball and know it.  You just said that Rajan Rondo was not a top 10 gaurd in the league and that Nate Robinson was better.  Here is who you are saying you are smarter than when it comes to basketball.  Danny Ainge (Celtics GM who resigned rondo when he could have gotten ANY free agent PG to come to Boston if he wanted to).  Doc Rivers(Helped make the decision with Danny Ainge).  Mike Krzyzewski  (helped chose Rajan Rondo to be on the USA basketball team.)  Jerry Colangelo  (helped chose Rondo to be on the USA basketball team.)  Those 4 know a little more than you do about basketball.  Sorry.

I don't have a problem with you saying the shot creator is more important than the spot up shooter.  I can live with that.  However, to say that a guy who is setting NBA records in assists is an AVERAGE passer is just poor judgement. You don't become an all star and all nba point guard by only being good at defending.  Sorry.  Just doesn't happen that way.  You clearly are bothered by Rondo's poor shooting and that is fine.  However, it says how good he is at the other aspects of the game when he is chosen to teams and things he has been chosen to when he is a below average shooter.  Rajan Rondo is not just a great passer he will go down as one of the top assist men in the HISTORY of this league.  Those that do that are not BELOW AVERAGE PASSERS.  Sorry.

[stevenash]

Careful sleepy.  You will now be labeled as bitter and/or arrogant.