YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OLDREF]

I had something happen Friday night I have never seen in my 17 years of officiating.  Please tell me what the right call is in this situation....

Team A has control of the ball and has an outlet past for a fastbreak.  Team B has a player in the backcourt who falls and hits her face on the floor.Team A has the ball at the division line when Coach from team B says my player is bleeding.  I look up and Team B has a player bleeding in the backcourt.  I blow the play dead as soon as I see the child bleeding from the mouth.

Team A's Coach says you can't blow the play dead It is against the rules.  She is extremely irritated that we took away a possible break a way lay-up.  I told her that no matter what the safety of the children had to come first.

So...................Who is right?  Should I have held my whistle?....or was I justified in killing the play at that time?

[Bobcat1]

I say you don't stop the play SINCE it was a fast break, I think it would be different if it wasn't an easy basket, but then again how do you judge whats an easy basket...I guess since there was blood you had to make the call, but if I was Team A I'd be a little upset too.

[hawkdad]

I would think you give the offensive team the chance to complete the fast break. As soon as the fast break score is made or the fast break stalls (either by missed shot, lost ball or turn over) you immediately call time out. If in fact it is a fast break you are only talking 2 to 3 seconds. If it happens during the course of a play where no advantage is obvious you call time out immediately.  

[Bobcat1]

[quote name="shackbully" post="936534" timestamp="1292855872"]
I would think you give the offensive team the chance to complete the fast break. As soon as the fast break score is made or the fast break stalls (either by missed shot, lost ball or turn over) you immediately call time out. If in fact it is a fast break you are only talking 2 to 3 seconds. If it happens during the course of a play where no advantage is obvious you call time out immediately.  
[/quote]

I agree.

[WOSgrad]

[quote name="OLDREF" post="936514" timestamp="1292853846"]
I had something happen Friday night I have never seen in my 17 years of officiating.  Please tell me what the right call is in this situation....

Team A has control of the ball and has an outlet past for a fastbreak.  Team B has a player in the backcourt who falls and hits her face on the floor.Team A has the ball at the division line when Coach from team B says my player is bleeding.  I look up and Team B has a player bleeding in the backcourt.  I blow the play dead as soon as I see the child bleeding from the mouth.

Team A's Coach says you can't blow the play dead It is against the rules.  She is extremely irritated that we took away a possible break a way lay-up.  I told her that no matter what the safety of the children had to come first.

So...................Who is right?  Should I have held my whistle?....or was I justified in killing the play at that time?
[/quote]

I say you called it dead on.  A health related issue is to be dealt with immediately so play must be stopped immediately.

[hawkdad]

I guess depending on who you are at the time would determine how you would feel about the stopage. If you are the one with the injured player you would be more likely to expect the play stopped. I really do believe the coach with the injured player would have been just as upset that the play was stopped as the other coach was had the situation been reversed. I know that if a shortstop takes a bad hop to the mouth (knocked out a tooth and bloody lip) that the game continues until the umpire calls the play over, and then he is attended to. Same with football players. Play doesn't stop until the play is called dead. Could you imagine a football player running free for the goal on a 95 yard kickoff return and nobody within 30 yeards of him and when he gets to the 5 yard line the ref blows his whistle because a player has a bloody mouth on the opposite 20 yard line. Being a ref in basketball requires quick decisions and I guess you may find it 50-50 on this one. I just think the timeframe needed to complete the play is too short to stop the advancement and or advantage one team had on another. This scenario is very hard to debate without sounding insensitive to injured players.

[BUNA95]

If player is out of harms way let it go. Stop once basket has been made or when the ball cames to the other direction. This way was told to me when I was coaching a little dribbler BBALL game.

[The Cook]

[quote name="BUNA95" post="936597" timestamp="1292870200"]
If player is out of harms way let it go. Stop once basket has been made or when the ball cames to the other direction. This way was told to me when I was coaching a little dribbler BBALL game.
[/quote]
You are right, Buna. You never stop a play going away from an injured player no matter how serious the injury because after a made basket or Team B steal, you are going to stop action immediately not allowing any player to come back towards the injured player. That's Officiating 101 !!!!
Sorry, OLDREF, you were wrong on this one.

[86hawk]

I can't blame OLDREF for stopping the play.  i think at that point your natural instincts kick in and you become more concerned with the bloody mouth and the condition of the player vs the fastbreak.  I don't think he would have blown it dead over a twisted ankle, but the flow of blood is why he stopped it.
I'm not a ref and i damn sure wont play one on this site.  So, i don't know what the correct or the answer is to the question.

[The Cook]

[quote name="86hawk" post="936625" timestamp="1292873650"]
I can't blame OLDREF for stopping the play.  i think at that point your natural instincts kick in and you become more concerned with the bloody mouth and the condition of the player vs the fastbreak.  I don't think he would have blown it dead over a twisted ankle, but the flow of blood is why he stopped it.
I'm not a ref and i dang sure wont play one on this site.  So, i don't know what the correct or the answer is to the question.
[/quote]
I just gave you the correct answer per NFHS rules. It is not OLDREF's progative to decide which ones you enforce & which ones you set aside.

[hjhawks]

Even though the rules say the play should keep going, I would do the same.... If the girl fell and hit her face on the floor....

I have walked on the court several times during play to attend to girls who have hit their head... some even were for the other team.  On several occasions, I have had officials tell me to get off the court, but instinct takes over at that point.

The rule is the rule, but rules also say:
you shouldn't handcheck...
you should head to the court at the 15 sec. warning sound during a timeout....
you can't run around the court during pregame warmups
a defensive player is entitled to the space above the position they have..

[underarmor]

I am going with the old ref on this one. I know what the rule says but you know what sometimes a matter of a few seconds can make a difference in an injury and not knowing how serious the injury and seeing blood I think if it was my daughter the old ref made the right call, maybe not according to the book rules but according to human nature rules he did the right thing...I hope you are still reffing when when my grand daughter plays highschool ball old ref.....

Would you have really cared about a layup if it saved the girl from serious injury. There is more to life than two points ::) ::) ::) ::)

[24 over par]

[quote name="Dr.Baden" post="936898" timestamp="1292916896"]
I am going with the old ref on this one. I know what the rule says but you know what sometimes a matter of a few seconds can make a difference in an injury and not knowing how serious the injury and seeing blood I think if it was my daughter the old ref made the right call, maybe not according to the book rules but according to human nature rules he did the right thing...I hope you are still reffing when when my grand daughter plays highschool ball old ref.....

Would you have really cared about a layup if it saved the girl from serious injury. There is more to life than two points ::) ::) ::) ::)
[/quote]amen

[BUNA95]

[quote name="24 over par" post="936917" timestamp="1292936273"]
[quote author=Dr.Baden link=topic=77816.msg936898#msg936898 date=1292916896]
I am going with the old ref on this one. I know what the rule says but you know what sometimes a matter of a few seconds can make a difference in an injury and not knowing how serious the injury and seeing blood I think if it was my daughter the old ref made the right call, maybe not according to the book rules but according to human nature rules he did the right thing...I hope you are still reffing when when my grand daughter plays highschool ball old ref.....

Would you have really cared about a layup if it saved the girl from serious injury. There is more to life than two points ::) ::) ::) ::)
[/quote]amen
[/quote]
No, but no one was around the player that was hurt so further injury would not have happened. Stop play on score or turnover.

[WOSgrad]

[quote name="BUNA95" post="936936" timestamp="1292940554"]
[quote author=24 over par link=topic=77816.msg936917#msg936917 date=1292936273]
[quote author=Dr.Baden link=topic=77816.msg936898#msg936898 date=1292916896]
I am going with the old ref on this one. I know what the rule says but you know what sometimes a matter of a few seconds can make a difference in an injury and not knowing how serious the injury and seeing blood I think if it was my daughter the old ref made the right call, maybe not according to the book rules but according to human nature rules he did the right thing...I hope you are still reffing when when my grand daughter plays highschool ball old ref.....

Would you have really cared about a layup if it saved the girl from serious injury. There is more to life than two points ::) ::) ::) ::)
[/quote]amen
[/quote]
No, but no one was around the player that was hurt so further injury would not have happened. Stop play on score or turnover.
[/quote]

Does it really matter if the player was not in danger of further injury?  I'm with Doc.  OLDREF saw someone who needed medical attention and sought to stop play to get it IMMEDIATELY.  The call may not square with NFHS rules, but it certainly squares with medical and hygenic protocol.  I really don't care if it was a few seconds and whether or not the young lady risked further injury in that few seconds.

OLDREF, I don't know what sanction is being considered against you.  If it is monetary, shoot me a PM and I'll certainly contribute to a fund to pay the fine!

[Bobcat1]

But in other sports if someone gets hurt they don't stop the play.  Football they aren't going to stop someone who is about to score, in baseball they're not about to make the batter go back an bat because Jimmy got hit in the mouth with the ball.  Why for stop for  basketball when the other team is about to score?

[underarmor]

[quote name="Bobcat05" post="936957" timestamp="1292943870"]
But in other sports if someone gets hurt they don't stop the play.  Football they aren't going to stop someone who is about to score, in baseball they're not about to make the batter go back an bat because Jimmy got hit in the mouth with the ball.  Why for stop for  basketball when the other team is about to score?
[/quote]
I understand what you are saying, Im just saying that sometime we dont have safety as our first thought process, but there are times that we do. Football is now looking at injury as being serious, look at the rule changes on leading with helmut and head shots. Baseball being hit in the face as a batter is dead ball and play stopped, I know it is by rule but kind of makes sense. Football usually the injured is laying on the field after play is over but only because play is usually away from injury but again the play stops when ball carrier or receiver is down. I know it sounds like I am making your point but again we are talking about kids not the pros. Pros are now demanding better judgement for their safety, so why not for our kids. I know they worry about faking injuries to stop play but I think blood visible to an official is good reason to stop play.
Again I understand what you are saying about rules, Im just saying that sometime the rulebook and human nature dont go hand in hand. I know OldRef and I know he would do the same thing again no matter what rule book says. His heart is bigger than any rulebook.
JMO

[mfd814]

Tough Call to make. Human heart instinct is to protect a bleeding player.  If there is a blow out lead, by either team. I think stop the game. If it is close, or could help a team get some momentum, i think let the fast break continue, but stop as soon as ball is shot, or fast break is stopped/defended.  I do think, seeing a player down and in agony or bleeding, you want to stop it as soon as possible. 

[86hawk]

I just gave you the correct answer per NFHS rules. It is not OLDREF's progative to decide which ones you enforce & which ones you set aside.

it appears lt sees everthing as black and white.  lt you may have provided the correct answer per the official rule book, but is it the right answer.  we are talking about HS basketball, not the NBA finals.  i would think the physical welfare of the injured player would be more important than 2 points.  Like i said in my prior post, a twisted ankle or knee or any other injury not involving blood, OLDREF probably wouldnt have stopped the play.  but due to the fact that the girl was bleeding, he went with his gut and stop play to tend to the injured player ASAP. 
At least i learned the answer to the correct call, but can't fault OLDREF or anyone else for stopping the play.

[The Cook]

[quote name="Dr.Baden" post="936972" timestamp="1292945943"]
[quote author=Bobcat05 link=topic=77816.msg936957#msg936957 date=1292943870]
But in other sports if someone gets hurt they don't stop the play.  Football they aren't going to stop someone who is about to score, in baseball they're not about to make the batter go back an bat because Jimmy got hit in the mouth with the ball.  Why for stop for  basketball when the other team is about to score?
[/quote]
I understand what you are saying, Im just saying that sometime we dont have safety as our first thought process, but there are times that we do. Football is now looking at injury as being serious, look at the rule changes on leading with helmut and head shots. Baseball being hit in the face as a batter is dead ball and play stopped, I know it is by rule but kind of makes sense. Football usually the injured is laying on the field after play is over but only because play is usually away from injury but again the play stops when ball carrier or receiver is down. I know it sounds like I am making your point but again we are talking about kids not the pros. Pros are now demanding better judgement for their safety, so why not for our kids. I know they worry about faking injuries to stop play but I think blood visible to an official is good reason to stop play.
Again I understand what you are saying about rules, Im just saying that sometime the rulebook and human nature dont go hand in hand. I know OldRef and I know he would do the same thing again no matter what rule book says. His heart is bigger than any rulebook.
JMO
[/quote]
Hey Doc, getting hit with a baseball no matter where you are hit ( not just the face ) the ball is immediately dead. The coach or trainer can go onto the court to attend to the bleeding player while the fast break play is finishing on the other end because a good ref is [u]NOT[/u] going to let the play come back towards the injury....he will then kill it immediately.

[hawkdad]

LT Dangle--Getting hit with a baseball/softball does not immediately stop a play. Only when you are batting and you are hit by a pitched ball is the play immediately called dead. Those are the rules. But, If a batter hits a line drive back at the pitcher and hits the pitcher in the mouth (or anyplace on the body) the play will continue as long as runner advancements are being made. When the defense denies the base runners from further advancements the umpire then calls time out and the injured player is attended to. The time needed to do this could take alot longer than it would for any basketball team to complete a fast break....

[underarmor]

I think I mentioned in my post about the batter getting hit caused a dead ball. Thanks shackbully I guess this one could go on forever. What about seeing a bleeding player would play stoppage come under the blood rule?

[OLDREF]

WELL.................I guess everyone is finished with the topic....Lt. Dangle...could you please show me in the rule book where it says that an official cannot stop play to see after an injured player....Dr. Baden....you are correct....If I had to do it over again I would still do the same....Ask yourself.....What if it were your child out there bleeding on the floor?...Would it make any difference?

Thanks to all of you that responded....I hope you all have a great new year!!!

[HOSSFAN]

Get this.....in a championship game in the Woodville Tournament...very tight game I might add....the ref stopped the game in the middle of a two point play where the team made the basket......... for a CONTACT lens malfunction!!! No blood.....a contact lens! Now that's a shame!!! The team did not get the two points and it would have made a difference in such a tight game!

[underarmor]

Im going to go with no stoppage on this one. Have seen it many times. Contact lens can be replaced if lost.
What about it oldref :o