Hey Refs there should be a new system

[trophyman]

I KNOW THIS MIGHT MAKE SOME PEOPLE MAD  BUT SOMETHING NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

they should give out grades for the way the refs call the games  and their pay aught to reflect their grade
judged by independent judges from UIL or TASO  MAYBE JUST MAYBE THEY WOULD TRY TO LEARN TO CALL A LITTLE BETTER!

I don't know if its just 1-A or if its the whole of the UIL but the calls or so random its like well i missed that one I'll make up  for it this time down the court.
I'm not calling out every Ref but come on guys at least 1/3 of the Refs I've seen this year seem to be in lala land . I mean you call a little hand check but completely
miss a hack or a lasso for lack of a better word . (grabbing someone around the neck)
this is it I've had my say . sorry to the Refs that are working hard to learn their craft, cause that's what it is, it's a craft take pride in what you do!

[east texas bb]

I agree.  Officials have no accountability.  If they were held accountable for what and how they called then they would study and do a better job instead of just show up for the game.  And you know as well that officials are human beings just like all of us, they see rankings, they have opinions, they have a preset determination even if it is subconscience.  And what is sad is coaches spend every hour, work there tails off spending so much time and effort to teach players how to play the game, basically their lively hood, that is for most coaches who give a darn.  And some guy off the street can take a few classes and get an outfit and go decide the outcome of games for the players and coaches, they can give a coach a technical for anything they want really and make them sit for the rest of the game, like they are a baby, when the coaches are the actual educated ones. As well, they can eject you from a game and make you spend a lot of time and effort by making you appear before the UIL and other implications as well.  It is a real problem. 
I wouldnt have a problem if they were held accountable and would call the game by the rules, I get so tired of officials allowing teams to ride or handcheck a player in the game for the entire game and also crashing the boards.  It has become where the players are rewarded for being faster and stronger, not rewarded for the skills the make the game the beauty that it is at times and should be always.

[bigbasketballfan]

Yes, this year I have seen a lower quailty batch of ref's. I do not know what it is, if there is a shortage or just an overall poorer prepared batch of ref's. I have seen several games this year where one of the two ref's seemed to make most of the calls, the other just seemed to run the floor. I have seen ref's stop and argue with coaches while the game is in flow.
So, how and who would grade the ref's? The coaches? Really, they would be the only logical ones to do so. So then what? They give a ref's a bad mark? If there is a shortage then who will replace them? Should there be more work done on training them and preparing them for the season?
A really hard question to answer as there is not going to be any real solution.

[CATMAN]

I thing the 1A AND 1Adiv.2 dont get the best ref. they get the leftovers that just my imo.
When the playoff start the ref.that come out of Hoston are a lot better. imo

[horndawg]

It is easy to get on here and complain.......why not man up and ref a few games yourself and see how much more difficult it is than what it looks like from the stands.....but that would require you to actually do something.....

Or better yet, lets make it a rule that all refs must sit in the stands because so much more can be seen from there.......

PS: I am not a ref

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="horndawg" post="951036" timestamp="1295449565"]
It is easy to get on here and complain.......why not man up and ref a few games yourself and see how much more difficult it is than what it looks like from the stands.....but that would require you to actually do something.....

Or better yet, lets make it a rule that all refs must sit in the stands because so much more can be seen from there.......

PS: I am not a ref
[/quote]Good post

[Tigerette]

Great post Horndawg.  It's amazing that people sitting in the stands 20 ft away from the play can make a call when the official is 2 ft away! Be happy you have two officials on the floor. If you think you can do better, then maybe you should join a ref chapter and show your skills! :) It's harder than it looks with a fast paced game, crowd interacting, coach's intensity, players giving 110% - and you have to make a decision in a blink of an eye.

[east texas bb]

I have officiated plenty of games. It is not easy, but if you take it serious you can do the job right. That does not stop the fact the officials are not held accountable. Coaches pour everything into a game and the majority of refs do not care about anything but getting the check and having a little power.   Give the coach the seatbelt, send him to the UIL.  Most officials do not even know the true rules of the game.  I have seen multiple calls that are just ridiculous, and that is not even stating the fact that the rules they do know they do not enforce correctly.  If a coach and players are going to spend as much time as they do to prepare for a game as most do, they deserve an official that will at least call the game with knowledge and integrity.  That is not too much to ask.  
The reason they have no accountability factor yet is because there are a shortage of good refs and the UIL has not figured a way to hold them accountable.  But, no one can say with honesty and fairness that a person can take a few courses and become an official and should be able to control a game and a coach when the coach is under control.  That is just not right, it is one of the biggest problems in athletics today.  And no one can seem to get the solution.  So I guess we will continue to get poor calls until someone does come up with a solution.
PS.  And Im not a parent of a current player.  I just see poor officiating and call it what it is.

[Guest Two-Dogs...]

Definitely needs to be some way of having accountability.

[tvc184]

Is there a surplus of refs available?

If you start knocking off the ones that are here now, are there quality refs ready to step in? If there are a lot of refs waiting for a chance, no problem. If there are not, big problem.

I am not minimizing the problem but like most things, it is a supply and demand deal. If you start basing pay of some formula, what happens then? If a guy gets a "D" for poor calling, does he get $10 for the next game? How many refs are going to drive an hour or more round trip and run up and down the court and get booed for $10?

The bottom line is that you can come up with any grading system or pay system that you wish but if so, you had better have that big supply of good refs waiting in the wings for the demand that you are about to create otherwise your supply is going to hit zero.

[east texas bb]

I dont disagree.  I dont know the solution.  Maybe if they charged a little more to get into the gates they could pay refs well.  Most refs can make 75-100 in a night.  That is not too bad for a couple of games.  You would expect the ones who are getting paid this well to call a good game.

[xavierbreath]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="950982" timestamp="1295440317"]

I wouldnt have a problem if they were held accountable and would call the game by the rules, I get so tired of officials allowing teams to ride or handcheck a player in the game for the entire game and also crashing the boards.  It has become where the players are rewarded for being faster and stronger, not rewarded for the skills the make the game the beauty that it is at times and should be always.
[/quote]

A coach once told me to play the game the way it is called.  Don't whine about it, just play the way the refs will let you play........I thought it was good advice, I stopped worrying so much about the officiating and concentrated more on my game.

[east texas bb]

It is true you have to adjust to the officials because you have no other choice.  But your statement just completely threw the UIL rule book out the window and allowed the official to call the game the way he wanted. Does that make much since? Of course not.  So if the official decided that tonight we are going to allow players to run with the ball without dribbling, the players should just adjust? 

It is simple, call the game according to the rules.  Do not expound or detract from the rules, call it by the rules.  Then you would see basketball in a much pure form.  Basketball should be judged or officiated on the fundamental tactile skills, technical skills, and knowledge of game combined with athleticism.  Dont add, dont subtract. 
Officials are not doing that for the most part, do some officials do a great job yes, I am talking about the majority of them not doing a good job.  And for goodness sakes dont listen and talk to the fans if they say something, if either goes past the point then and only then should the official call a technical.  You have officials that will not even discuss anything with a coach, the coach and the official should have a working relationship.  I could tell crazy stories of officials that would blow your mind. From hidden agendas to even after being shown in the rule book that he was incorrect during a timeout, he admitted and still did not change it. First he didnt know the rule, second he didnt correct his mistake. 

[trophyman]

the ref is not there to determine the out come of the game !

[east texas bb]

Exactly trophyman, and I do not adhere to the common theme at the end of games "let the players decide the game".  Yes, let them decide the game within the rules. But it shouldnt be a free for all the last 10 seconds.  If someone shoots and gets fouled it should be called.  The officals should be there to keep the game within the rules as the players play.

[trophyman]

That is Exactly my point thanks

[tvc184]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="951211" timestamp="1295465198"]
It is true you have to adjust to the officials because you have no other choice.   But your statement just [size=10pt][b]completely threw the UIL rule book out the window and allowed the official to call the game the way he wanted[/b][/size]......................
[/quote]

Not really.

It is no different than two baseball umpires calling a different game at the plate. One might call it tight and one might call it wide. Both know the rules and both believe they are going by the rules. It is a judgment on what is outside, what is low, etc.

There are some rules like stepping on a line is out of bounds that are clear cut. There are others that are judgment calls and a player needs to play the way that ref is calling it. It is not the matter of throwing out the rules but what one guy sees.

[trophyman]

I'm not saying they need to call a perfect game I'm saying they need to call as consistantly as possible
and know the rules when they let varsity kids play all out with out inforcing the rules tempers flare
and kids get hurt.  like when a guy goes up for a rebound and another guy runs under him taking his feet out from under him its a foul oh waite no foul called thats what causes tempers to get crazy
and it should never get to that point!

[TeamJagUS]

i've seen some poorly called games this year but never one that is COMPLETELY one sided for the entire game, the problem is in the consistency of the calls, what was not a foul 3 minutes ago suddenly is a foul now, players can't adjust to that, they just get frustrated. a ref not KNOWING rules is one thing, we all can understand a blown call now and again, but when a ref is looking right at a kid that carries the ball several times a game and never blows the whistle.....come on, hang the whistle up, your bias is showing. most fans or players don't want an [i]advantage[/i], they'd just like it to be fair.

it does [i]seem[/i] often times the officials want to dictate the outcome by selective calling, then try to "make up" for it by calling more evenly once the issue is settled (one team is in control of the score).

i agree with everything etbb is saying, including upping the admission to fund an evaluation process (game film not coaches "gradesheets") that would reward good officiating (financially). there are some good officials doing the job without emotional involvement but a higher percentage it seems either consciously or sub-consciously think they should [i]dictate[/i] the outcome. someone's reference to baseball is a moot point, there are some poor umpires too, many will tell you "off the record" they'll make calls based on factors other than the strictest guidelines of the rules.

the old argument "if you don't like how they do it then suit up and do it yourself" is lame. i didn't sign up to nor accept pay (however poor it is) to do it, they did and they should do it fairly without emotion or bias. alot of officials do it for the love of the sport not the pay, kudos to those who do. i'd bet they're among the best. if we run out of officials, oh well. i'd be just as happy with the kids calling their own compared to some of the mess i've seen this year. i swear i think the kids would be fairer to each other than [u]some[/u] of the grown men calling.

the bottom line is that its doubtful any more money will be spent to improve the system. hats off to you guys that are doing the job right and we can just hope that your mentoring will bring around those who obviously don't have a clue.

[bulldogbasketball]

IMO I agree with the grading system, but I also agree that FANS need to shut up for the most part. High school basketball is a fast pace organized chaos game, so the refs are NOT going to be perfect. Because your team loses doesn't mean blame the refs, it just means your team just got beat. Which is why for the most part the good teams adjust the way they play according to the calls the ref makes. So to sum it up enough with the crying and show some action by becoming a ref yourself (since we all seem to be better refs than the actual ref)!

[divadog]

[quote name="trophyman" post="951222" timestamp="1295465850"]
the ref is not there to determine the out come of the game !
[/quote]
The head ref in the Vidor vs. PNG game last night was OBVIOUSLY there to determine the outcome of the game!  He overruled calls that the other refs had made and made calls himself that he was way out of position to make.  You don't make a call from the scoring table under the basket when a ref was there in position.  I don't recognize him, PNG has only seen him once before this season that I am aware of.  He made the same poor calls.  He just didn't have control to determine the outcome of the game.  My son has played at the varsity level for many years and this year's refs are the worst I have seen by far.  I understand that the pay may be an issue with shortage.  BUT, there are rules to this game!  If you don't know them or understand them, you shouldn't be drawing your paycheck. Take a backseat and start with little dribblers.  These boys on the court put many hours into practice, and they deserve to have a game called fairly and correctly. 

[Guest tigersvoice]

[quote name="divadog" post="951313" timestamp="1295474441"]
[quote author=trophyman link=topic=78978.msg951222#msg951222 date=1295465850]
the ref is not there to determine the out come of the game !
[/quote]
The head ref in the Vidor vs. PNG game last night was OBVIOUSLY there to determine the outcome of the game!  He overruled calls that the other refs had made and made calls himself that he was way out of position to make.  You don't make a call from the scoring table under the basket when a ref was there in position.  I don't recognize him, PNG has only seen him once before this season that I am aware of.  He made the same poor calls.  He just didn't have control to determine the outcome of the game.  My son has [i][b]played at the varsity [/b] [/i] [i][b]level for many years[/b][/i] and this year's refs are the worst I have seen by far.  I understand that the pay may be an issue with shortage.  BUT, there are rules to this game!  If you don't know them or understand them, you shouldn't be drawing your paycheck. Take a backseat and start with little dribblers.  These boys on the court put many hours into practice, and they deserve to have a game called fairly and correctly.  
[/quote]

How much eligibility did your son have ???

[divadog]

[quote name="tigersvoice" post="951325" timestamp="1295475843"]
[quote author=divadog link=topic=78978.msg951313#msg951313 date=1295474441]
[quote author=trophyman link=topic=78978.msg951222#msg951222 date=1295465850]
the ref is not there to determine the out come of the game !
[/quote]
The head ref in the Vidor vs. PNG game last night was OBVIOUSLY there to determine the outcome of the game!  He overruled calls that the other refs had made and made calls himself that he was way out of position to make.  You don't make a call from the scoring table under the basket when a ref was there in position.  I don't recognize him, PNG has only seen him once before this season that I am aware of.  He made the same poor calls.  He just didn't have control to determine the outcome of the game.  My son has [i][b]played at the varsity [/b] [/i] [i][b]level for many years[/b][/i] and this year's refs are the worst I have seen by far.  I understand that the pay may be an issue with shortage.  BUT, there are rules to this game!  If you don't know them or understand them, you shouldn't be drawing your paycheck. Take a backseat and start with little dribblers.  These boys on the court put many hours into practice, and they deserve to have a game called fairly and correctly.  
[/quote]

How much eligibility did your son have ???
[/quote]
You don't deserve a response.  But, my son has played:

SEVERAL - ADJ.  being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind!

sorry for my grammatical error

[whsalum]

The officiating is simply a numbers game, there isn't a conspiracy against any one club.When I first started officiating you had to complete your testing and go thru your floor work under close supervision.Now there just isn't enough officials to do this so you have some thrown into varsity games before they are ready. Mike Simpson is as good at training young officials as anyone could be, unfortunately there aren't alot of mentors like they used to be.You also have several guys calling games now that don't get into any kind of shape before the season starts.I do have one pet peeve that I saw in the HJ/Silsbee girls game last week,it was inbounding a dead ball.The crew which was an experienced one, constantly let the girls with the ball move on the sideline and the base line,on made baskets you can run the baseline on dead ball spots this is a turnover.Overall the officiating I've seen this year has been pretty good.

[east texas bb]

My grandfather officiated for 35 years and I have officiated games.  I am on both sides, I want the officials to call the game correctly and the best they can.  No one expects them to get ever call right.  IF you do expect them to then you have lost your mind.  There are alot of good officials that want to do a good job, and you can usually tell by there performance.  To ask the Fans to shut up is another moot point, that will never happen.  Should they try to be quiet, yes, but there are too many emotions in the game. 
Officials that really care for the game and do a good job are needed and believe me coaches will go to bat for an official that will treat him with respect. 
My only argument in the entire thread was if officials are going to have as much control and influence over the game as they do, they should have some kind of accountability.  I dont know what and how that gets done.