Hey Refs there should be a new system

[UKCats]

[quote name="trophyman" post="953309" timestamp="1295793637"]
ukcats you are right but i've seen 1-a and 2-a schools beat 5-a schools in a lot of sports
common sense tells you when you have more to choose from you can find better players .
this is not always the case and just because your a 5-a school don't give you an automatic win
[/quote]

Did you guys even read my post?!? I said that there are exceptions to every rule, but if 1A school thought that they could consistently compete with 3A, 4A, and 5A schools then we wouldn't have classifications. The only reason we have them in the first place is because enough people complained about how unfair "class-less" sports were. Sometimes the stars align just right and a 1A school ends up with 3 or 4 really good players on the same team and they beat the lower half of school in larger classifications. But lets be honest the state champion 1A team would more than likely have some trouble with the state champion 5A team. PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU REPLY!  ;D

[UKCats]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="953479" timestamp="1295821226"]
I agree, I played at a 2A school and we beat the pants off of 3A, 4A, and 5a schools.  And most were from this Region which is the toughest Region not another region.
[/quote]

Did you guys even read my post?!? I said that there are exceptions to every rule, but if 1A school thought that they could consistently compete with 3A, 4A, and 5A schools then we wouldn't have classifications. The only reason we have them in the first place is because enough people complained about how unfair "class-less" sports were. Sometimes the stars align just right and a 1A school ends up with 3 or 4 really good players on the same team and they beat the lower half of school in larger classifications. But lets be honest the state champion 1A team would more than likely have some trouble with the state champion 5A team. PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU REPLY!  ;D

[east texas bb]

I read your entire post, I am just saying there are exceptions and that 1A through 5A should not be called differently.  I have agreed with the majority of your post.  Thought they were good, but you cant call a game different for one classifications than another. The UIL rule book covers all classifications.

[UKCats]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="953695" timestamp="1295840777"]
I read your entire post, I am just saying there are exceptions and that 1A through 5A should not be called differently.  I have agreed with the majority of your post.  Thought they were good, but you cant call a game different for one classifications than another. The UIL rule book covers all classifications.
[/quote]

I agree they should not be called different, no one said the rules should be changed. However, all officials must start somewhere. The first few years I called softball it was ASA 10 and unders. I later graduated to 5A state playoff games and some juco ball, but there should be a natural progression. 1A just tends to be the starting point for high school basketball officials because NORMALLY the caliber is slightly less. Not saying they are terrible or that there can't be exceptions, but NORMALLY they seem to be a little easier to call than a 5A game.

[east texas bb]

Your correct, 1A-5A on average the best players are in the higher classifications.  More numbers and more opportunities in larger cities.

[jabu84]

If you feel that 1a through 5a should be ref the same i understand but its not. go to a game in fort bend isd then go watch then go watch a game in 22 2a. you should be able to see that difference in play.

[Bone Daddy]

[quote name="jabu84" post="952860" timestamp="1295680051"]
[quote author=UKCats link=topic=78978.msg952859#msg952859 date=1295679902]
I watched a game tonight where a referee (who claimed to be a veteran) watched a team inbound the ball, take 4 or 5 dribbles, make a pass and then granted a time out to the opposing team who was on defense at the time btw. And some people believe these guys shouldn't be held accountable. . .really?!? Please tell me there is an appropriate channel in which to file these complaints so that UIL can realize the err of their ways. IMO this shouldn't be a referee bashing session but a means to a much needed end.
[/quote]

go to the chapter
[/quote]
Beaumont chapter - UIL.  Good Luck!!!!!!!

[east texas bb]

I agree that games are called differently at different classifications.  Just like AAU.  I you play in a large school, you will have to get used to the officials allowing more contact.  I dont agree that it should be that way.  If a foul is a foul then it should be a foul at whatever level the officials are calling.
Secondly, didnt anyone watch the Syracuse and Villanova game last night?  If you did, you would have noticed how as Syracuse was behind at the end and trying to come back they were pressing and fouling and the officials were allowing more and more fouling to occur.  It was if the officials wanted Syracuse to come back and make it a close game.  Luckily Villanova made 7-7 on their FT at the end on the calls they did get.
Lastly, going to the chapter and UIL have been tried numerous times with no avail.  I dont know what the answer is, wasnt hired to come up with the answer, I just know that officials need to be held as accountable as anyone that steps on the court.  If not then they are the deciders of everyone's fate unless you get good ones.  And there are good officials out there, jsut few and far between.

[Guest Pupmom]

What no one seems to have stated here, is that there was a split between the refs from last year, which created 2 different reffing divisions.  If you notice some refs have black and white jerseys, and some have gray and white jerseys.  The new division has a tremendous amount of new Refs.  I am not making excuses for inconsistant calls in a game, only saying that is why the calling seems so bad this year.  I do notice that one division allows for a much rougher game, and does not call as tough as the other, in my opinion.

[48newyorker]

Much that has been said is NOT true. However, everthing that has been said is NOT UNTRUE. All of you have hit on some issues we as referees are concerned about.
First, We do not have an abundance of seasoned officials ready to step in and call "big" games. A "big" game could be a 1A game with the right ingredients. We do have less seasoned refs in 1A games generally because of the lack of good, experienced refs along with all the other classes we serve. Calling ballgames is actually easier than you give us credit for. In fact, as you continue to referee the game "slows" down a bit as you become more aware of what all is going on around you. The big key is for us to keep refs around long enough for them to mature as officials. When we send 1st thru 3rd year refs to do Jr. High and sub varsity games it is not easy to here from fans, coaches and players (and commentors on web sites ;)) what an idiot you are for not calling everything YOU see from the stands. I have never met a basketball referee who wasn't a fan of the game before they became a referee. You are correct that fans see things from the stands that we can't see. However, for the most part, it is better for the guy on the floor to have the whistle. We will NEVER get ALL calls right in any game. We strive to "manage" a game by interupting the flow as rarely as we can. That sometimes means if a player shuffles their feet a little but did NOT gain an ADVANTAGE by doing so we may not call a traveling violation. The hardest thing for a fan to understand is the concept of ADVANTAGE - DISADVANTAGE. The next time you see a play you think should have been called but was not: Ask yourself this question: Did the player gain an ILLEGAL advantage by their action? If there was an illegal advantange then the ref should have called a violation.
Lastly, After each of our games (varsity & sub vastiy) the caoches have the opportunity to grade each of their officails in several key catagories. We do have accountability from the ones that matter most! The coach!
If you're interested in joining us please contact our local chapter...409-840-6914

[bigbasketballfan]

I was with you 48newyorker until you started with the "advanage" stuff.

So, you will not make a call if there wasn't a "advantage" gained by one of the players? Just where in the rule book does "advantage" fall, as I want to read that part and I know many others would too.

Traveling is not traveling unless there was an "advantage" gained?

Interesting concept.

[east texas bb]

Me too, that goes to the entire heart of what we are talking about.  When you talk about advantage or disadvantage you are giving complete comtrol to the official.  The game should be called by the UIL rule book best interpreted as can.  I know that all calls will not be good or that all calls will be bad. 
And there is no REAL accountability system, there are multiple coaching websites and the one thing they complain about is officiating or the lack of accountability on the part of the officials.  The coaches can only scratch and official, that is it, they can call the chapter which does absolutley no good.  And a coach will not scratch an official unless absolutley necessary because they are afraid that the official they scratched they will have to have in a playoff game which we know how that will go. 
I too, was going along with some of the post until ADVANTAGE and DISADVANTAGE, that is all in the mind's eye of the official, which in essence is his judgment, and the game should not be called on his judgment but on the book describing the rules in the game.

[48newyorker]

nuthinbut...
Notice the word "may" not call...it was in reference to shuffling feet...and you are right...if that player is 60 feet from the rim and is passed the ball and shuffles his feet a bit I may pass that call to avoid interupting the game since it didn't affect the game. In the NFL on defensive pass interference the referee does not call a push on the defense if the ball was overthrown by 10 yards, say. Same concept...

[east texas bb]

Is it a ADVANTAGE or DISADVANTAGE for a player to ride and handcheck a player up and down the court and try for a steal 3 or 4 times each time making a foul, but he didnt get the steal so no foul is called?  Then he finally does get a clean steal after attempting 4 times (fouling all times) but no DISADVANTAGE was there so no foul was called.  So you end up with a ballhandler, tired from someone handchecking him up the court and trying to steal the ball and fouling him with no fouls and 1 steal.  
What should have happened was when the defender started handchecking and riding the player with his body down the court, he should have been called for a foul which would have backed him up and made him play good defense instead of just using his strength and quickness to foul the offensive player.  

[Guest Two-Dogs...]

[quote name="48newyorker" post="954241" timestamp="1295978844"]
nuthinbut...
Notice the word "may" not call...it was in reference to shuffling feet...and you are right...if that player is 60 feet from the rim and is passed the ball and shuffles his feet a bit I may pass that call to avoid interupting the game since it didn't affect the game. In the NFL on defensive pass interference the referee does not call a push on the defense if the ball was overthrown by 10 yards, say. Same concept...
[/quote]

But in your example you are affecting the game by not making the legit call and not giving the ball to the team that should have it according to the rules. The game was affected whether you blew the whistle or not.

[east texas bb]

HS and Pro Sports are completely different animals.
If he stumbles then it should be a walk even if it was 60 feet away.  He did not execute a skill correctly which would have given the other team the ball and a chance to score.  Call the game the way it states.

[The Cook]

[quote name="48newyorker" post="954219" timestamp="1295977286"]
Much that has been said is NOT true. However, everthing that has been said is NOT UNTRUE. All of you have hit on some issues we as referees are concerned about.
First, We do not have an abundance of seasoned officials ready to step in and call "big" games. A "big" game could be a 1A game with the right ingredients. We do have less seasoned refs in 1A games generally because of the lack of good, experienced refs along with all the other classes we serve. Calling ballgames is actually easier than you give us credit for. In fact, as you continue to referee the game "slows" down a bit as you become more aware of what all is going on around you. The big key is for us to keep refs around long enough for them to mature as officials. When we send 1st thru 3rd year refs to do Jr. High and sub varsity games it is not easy to here from fans, coaches and players (and commentors on web sites ;)) what an idiot you are for not calling everything YOU see from the stands. I have never met a basketball referee who wasn't a fan of the game before they became a referee. You are correct that fans see things from the stands that we can't see. However, for the most part, it is better for the guy on the floor to have the whistle. We will NEVER get ALL calls right in any game. We strive to "manage" a game by interupting the flow as rarely as we can. That sometimes means if a player shuffles their feet a little but did NOT gain an ADVANTAGE by doing so we may not call a traveling violation. The hardest thing for a fan to understand is the concept of ADVANTAGE - DISADVANTAGE. The next time you see a play you think should have been called but was not: Ask yourself this question: Did the player gain an ILLEGAL advantage by their action? If there was an illegal advantange then the ref should have called a violation.
Lastly, After each of our games (varsity & sub vastiy) the caoches have the opportunity to grade each of their officails in several key catagories. We do have accountability from the ones that matter most! The coach!
If you're interested in joining us please contact our local chapter...409-840-6914


[/quote] Is this the chapter that wears grey jerseys?

[48newyorker]

etbb,

You are correct. A hand check is a foul...whether in 1a or 5a...a foul is foul if advantage is gained. Read the rule book where it discusses incidental contact. Contact in basketball is constant but it is not always a foul unless the offender gains an illegal advantage. Common sense refereeing is what most of you are NOT seeing and I think that's where the frustrations come from being a fan.

[bigbasketballfan]

So, just for my understanding here. How much shuffling of the feet is not considered a travel? Lets not get confused with calling younger little dribblers games here.

Common sense to me would mean following the rules.

[Guest Two-Dogs...]

Again I state, If a kid "shuffles" his feet and the ref chooses not to call it then the ref is controlling and influencing the game period. By not calling the travel the ref has denied the ball to the team that should have gotten the ball on the travel call!

[Tigerette]

Advantage/Disadvantage does not pertain to traveling.  A travel is a travel and should be called - period. No matter the level. It's a violation of the rule.  There is no interpertation of it or one's judgement in my book.  If a player picks up the ball and takes two steps.  It's a travel.  I think most coaches and fans are looking for consistency.  I have seen it stated in earlier posts.  Most officials I know do not have a secret agenda.  Some games are just ugly in the way of play and fouls.  If you have two really aggressive teams that like to press -- it could be an ugly game. Handchecking needs to be addressed in the first quarter to set tone for the game.  I promise if you call handchecking on a player in the first quarter, they will remember that rule.  Sometimes it takes 2 calls to make them understand.  But again..I fall back to consistency.  Basketball is a contact sport and there will be contact.  At the refs discretion - you have to decide advantage/disadvantage.  But traveling is traveling and it's not fair to let it go.  If team A violated the traveling rule then team B should be awarded the ball.  By not awarding team B for the violation is not right and that is why we are having this conversation.....call by the book and issues would be solved and doing the right thing consistently makes the games go better.  Of course this is just my opinion. :)

[48newyorker]

I appreciate all your input and will put it in my memory bank. You are all correct: a walk is a walk and a foul is a foul. I could probably have used a better example than shuffling feet. Remeber this: a referee is there to apply the rules, when necessary, to prevent one team from gaining an illegal advantage over an opponent.

[b]This is a statement in the Rules of Basketball (NFHS) just above where Rule number 1 begins:[/b]

"[b]The Intent and Purpose of the Rules"[/b]

The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and the tall player; to provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play; and to emphisize cleverness and skill without unduly limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.

Therefore, it is important to know the [b]intent and purpose [/b] of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or team should not be permitted an advantage which is NOT intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage NOT intended by a rule.
It is the policy of the NFHS Basketball Rule Committee that there be no deviation from the rules unless experimental approval has been granted by the NFHS. (This is word-for-word from the 2010-2011 rule book).

If you read that carefully you now understand that EVERYTHING is about not letting one individual or team gain an advantage NOT intended in the rule. Even in my bad example---if the kid shuffles his feet a little, 60 feet from the rim and it doesn't put the other team at a disadvantage (intent of the rule) no call. However, if same kid is being closely guarded even 1 ft inside the opponents baseline and shuffles his feet in an effort to fake out their guy to get by them then you would have a player gaining advantage by walking and it is a violation (he gained advantage). Younger officials and fans often want to call or have called every little thing that happens but the committee has tried to make it clear the intent is far greater than the action.

I don't ecpect to have all you in agreeement with every call you see an official make. I don't even agree with all the ones I make...yes I know when I blow a call I'm just greatful to have the fans and coaches to keep me from doing it too often :D

To answer another ? that came through...I'm a gray shirt.

[east texas bb]

From listening to you speak and explain things on here, I can tell that you are one of the better officials.  I can tell you and most on the board know I have coached in the past and will be getting back into the coaching profession.  My question would be with the intent and advantage, does it not give a team an advantage if Defender (A) fouls 4 times but he didnt get the steal and was not punished for it because it did not give him an advantage, but on the 5th time he did get the steal and scored a layup on the other end. To me that could change a game, with so many variables in basketball from being in foul trouble to playing correct defense to a game that is a one possession game.  This defender(A) was allowed an advantage all game to "take chances" knowing he would not get a foul but then he got the clean steal after fouling the Offenisive player the entire game.  The defender had the advantage the entire game.  He knew who could foul without consequence.  It is my opinion, that the offense should be protected, especially the shooter and the ball-handler.  They can not perform the skills that make basketball such a unique and beautiful game if they are being fouled the entire game.
My entire purpose in this thread has been that officials should have to be held as accountable as anyone that steps on the court or that is involved in the game. At present, there is no accountability.  Officials know it and coaches know it.  Coaches are at the mercy of the officials. Most of the time, unless it is a good official he can not even talk to the official without getting a technical, or ejected thus in alot of scholl districts means dismissal and a trip to the UIL.  I  just think officials have too much control without accountability.

[The Cook]

[quote name="48newyorker" post="954403" timestamp="1295992738"]
I appreciate all your input and will put it in my memory bank. You are all correct: a walk is a walk and a foul is a foul. I could probably have used a better example than shuffling feet. Remeber this: a referee is there to apply the rules, when necessary, to prevent one team from gaining an illegal advantage over an opponent.

[b]This is a statement in the Rules of Basketball (NFHS) just above where Rule number 1 begins:[/b]

"[b]The Intent and Purpose of the Rules"[/b]

The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; to provide equal opportunity between the small player and the tall player; to provide reasonable safety and protection; to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior and fair play; and to emphisize cleverness and skill without unduly limiting freedom of action of individual or team play on either offense or defense.

Therefore, it is important to know the [b]intent and purpose [/b] of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or team should not be permitted an advantage which is NOT intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage NOT intended by a rule.
It is the policy of the NFHS Basketball Rule Committee that there be no deviation from the rules unless experimental approval has been granted by the NFHS. (This is word-for-word from the 2010-2011 rule book).

If you read that carefully you now understand that EVERYTHING is about not letting one individual or team gain an advantage NOT intended in the rule. Even in my bad example---if the kid shuffles his feet a little, 60 feet from the rim and it doesn't put the other team at a disadvantage (intent of the rule) no call. However, if same kid is being closely guarded even 1 ft inside the opponents baseline and shuffles his feet in an effort to fake out their guy to get by them then you would have a player gaining advantage by walking and it is a violation (he gained advantage). Younger officials and fans often want to call or have called every little thing that happens but the committee has tried to make it clear the intent is far greater than the action.

I don't ecpect to have all you in agreeement with every call you see an official make. I don't even agree with all the ones I make...yes I know when I blow a call I'm just greatful to have the fans and coaches to keep me from doing it too often :D

To answer another ? that came through...I'm a gray shirt.


[/quote]
  I'm sorry to hear that.

[pinelandflash]

I am still curious at how a girl from team A can dribble down the court, have the defender from team B five feet away from her, trip over her own two feet, and, somehow, the defender from team B gets called for a push in the back! The official was in between the the 2 girls at the time, and the only one that could've been pushed in the back was the official himself(he had to turn around to point at the defender and call the foul)! This call happened in the varsity girls game between Colmesneil and West Sabine last Friday night. ???