Hey Refs there should be a new system

[True Blue]

I have to tell this one that happen last night. At the start of game, on the tip, One player was 6'7'' and the other was 6'0 , the ref tossed the ball, but like a little dribbler game. the ball only went about 8' up the 6'7'' kid jumped and the ball did not get as high as his under arm. :D :D The other kid just slaped it with out jumping :D

[48newyorker]

ETBB,
In your example you keep referring to a player being "fouled" while trying to dribble the ball past their opponent. If you inhibit that dribblers ability to get past you by "fouling" them then you have gained advantage and should be called for the violation. Unfortunately, this foul is not always called, especially if the kid being fouled gets past their opponent still in control of the ball. I can see your point about being fouled all night and then the opponent finally get's a steal giving advantage to the defender. However, one steal in a game where the offense has gotten past their opponent multiple times should bode well for the offense if they can take advantage of a 4-on-5 situation more often than not. Sometimes you actually punish the offense because the defender will grab a player who has just moved past them just to keep from getting scored on. I may allow the offense to go on to the hole without a whistle because a whistle would take away his move to the hole. See what I mean? It's a tough call. Now, if a player is fouling a dribbler and he CAN'T get past them then it should be called a foul!

Thanks for your service as a coach and former referee. Neither is for the weak of heart!
As for the other situations described...well, I can't explain bad calls any better than any of you! ;)

[DVILLE-GORILLA]

[quote name="Lt. Dangle" post="954251" timestamp="1295979275"]
[quote author=48newyorker link=topic=78978.msg954219#msg954219 date=1295977286]
Much that has been said is NOT true. However, everthing that has been said is NOT UNTRUE. All of you have hit on some issues we as referees are concerned about.
First, We do not have an abundance of seasoned officials ready to step in and call "big" games. A "big" game could be a 1A game with the right ingredients. We do have less seasoned refs in 1A games generally because of the lack of good, experienced refs along with all the other classes we serve. Calling ballgames is actually easier than you give us credit for. In fact, as you continue to referee the game "slows" down a bit as you become more aware of what all is going on around you. The big key is for us to keep refs around long enough for them to mature as officials. When we send 1st thru 3rd year refs to do Jr. High and sub varsity games it is not easy to here from fans, coaches and players (and commentors on web sites ;)) what an idiot you are for not calling everything YOU see from the stands. I have never met a basketball referee who wasn't a fan of the game before they became a referee. You are correct that fans see things from the stands that we can't see. However, for the most part, it is better for the guy on the floor to have the whistle. We will NEVER get ALL calls right in any game. We strive to "manage" a game by interupting the flow as rarely as we can. That sometimes means if a player shuffles their feet a little but did NOT gain an ADVANTAGE by doing so we may not call a traveling violation. The hardest thing for a fan to understand is the concept of ADVANTAGE - DISADVANTAGE. The next time you see a play you think should have been called but was not: Ask yourself this question: Did the player gain an ILLEGAL advantage by their action? If there was an illegal advantange then the ref should have called a violation.
Lastly, After each of our games (varsity & sub vastiy) the caoches have the opportunity to grade each of their officails in several key catagories. We do have accountability from the ones that matter most! The coach!
If you're interested in joining us please contact our local chapter...409-840-6914


[/quote] Is this the chapter that wears grey jerseys?
[/quote]LT, you had me won over until your statement concerning Advantage!  If a player travels according to the rule book, then it's sure ADVANTAGEOUS for the other team to get the ball hence stoping the player guilty of traveling (shuffle) from scoring or assisting in a score that trip down the court.  Why not forget the 3 second lane violation, if no ones paying him any attention then theres no advatage, he's just standing there.  (until the guy that got away with traveling hits him with a pass and he scores)

[east texas bb]

Both jobs are not for the light hearted, for sure. 

[The Cook]

[quote name="DVILLE-GORILLA" post="955768" timestamp="1296148100"]
[quote author=Lt. Dangle link=topic=78978.msg954251#msg954251 date=1295979275]
[quote author=48newyorker link=topic=78978.msg954219#msg954219 date=1295977286]
Much that has been said is NOT true. However, everthing that has been said is NOT UNTRUE. All of you have hit on some issues we as referees are concerned about.
First, We do not have an abundance of seasoned officials ready to step in and call "big" games. A "big" game could be a 1A game with the right ingredients. We do have less seasoned refs in 1A games generally because of the lack of good, experienced refs along with all the other classes we serve. Calling ballgames is actually easier than you give us credit for. In fact, as you continue to referee the game "slows" down a bit as you become more aware of what all is going on around you. The big key is for us to keep refs around long enough for them to mature as officials. When we send 1st thru 3rd year refs to do Jr. High and sub varsity games it is not easy to here from fans, coaches and players (and commentors on web sites ;)) what an idiot you are for not calling everything YOU see from the stands. I have never met a basketball referee who wasn't a fan of the game before they became a referee. You are correct that fans see things from the stands that we can't see. However, for the most part, it is better for the guy on the floor to have the whistle. We will NEVER get ALL calls right in any game. We strive to "manage" a game by interupting the flow as rarely as we can. That sometimes means if a player shuffles their feet a little but did NOT gain an ADVANTAGE by doing so we may not call a traveling violation. The hardest thing for a fan to understand is the concept of ADVANTAGE - DISADVANTAGE. The next time you see a play you think should have been called but was not: Ask yourself this question: Did the player gain an ILLEGAL advantage by their action? If there was an illegal advantange then the ref should have called a violation.
Lastly, After each of our games (varsity & sub vastiy) the caoches have the opportunity to grade each of their officails in several key catagories. We do have accountability from the ones that matter most! The coach!
If you're interested in joining us please contact our local chapter...409-840-6914


[/quote] Is this the chapter that wears grey jerseys?
[/quote]LT, you had me won over until your statement concerning Advantage!  If a player travels according to the rule book, then it's sure ADVANTAGEOUS for the other team to get the ball hence stoping the player guilty of traveling (shuffle) from scoring or assisting in a score that trip down the court.  Why not forget the 3 second lane violation, if no ones paying him any attention then theres no advatage, he's just standing there.  (until the guy that got away with traveling hits him with a pass and he scores)
[/quote]

Thanks, Gorilla

[bigbasketballfan]

48newyorker, by the way you try to explain not making calls, I am beginning to wonder if your whistle even as a ball in it.

The way I read your explainations, you seem to focused on advantage/disadvantage verses actually calling a rule. You say you "don't want to take away from his move to the hole"? When on the floor does that moment actually begin I wonder. At the top of the key, mid-court, or during the inbound pass?

I think after all of this back and forth, we have covered the topic in that, some ref's will not call the rules consistently through out an entire game and others will. Thus the frustration by the players, coaches and fans that prompted this blog in the first place. I think all would agree that some calls are missed, that is only human, but for a ref to be in position and to not call a rule out of advantage/disadvantage or for some other reason/excuss is what prompted this whole discussion days ago.

I too find it hard to understand why there is not any accountability to the ref's. The coach is, the players are, the fans are, but not the ref? The ref can throw a fan out, sit the coach down and even eject him. So why isn't there a mechanizem to deal with a ref? I just seems that the ref has an undue advantage when he or she steps onto the court. If a fan is tossed, he or she will then have to deal with the schools administration and take the UIL course. Does the ref ever have to be sat down and take a UIL course or be "warned"?

Those of us that have watched enough basketball to be bench sore, have seen the good ref's and the bad ones. It just seems we are seeing more bad than good.

What have we learned from all of this?

[48newyorker]

nothinbutnet,

New whistles DON'T have balls in them ;)

I hope you read the thread where I explained where adavantage/disadvanctage comes from.

We have processes in place for referee's accountability. We have to make the same ride to Austin as the coaches do if the situation gets to that point.

Any ref who thinks they get everything right every time is dreaming.

Consistency is our goal in applying rules, when we must, to avoid one team or individual gaining an illegal advantage.

Thanks to all of you for your comments, concerns and civility...

[Guest Two-Dogs...]

So under what circumstances would a ref end up taking the ride to austin? It seems to me there is no way that happens in reality.

[east texas bb]

The officials do have to go to Austin if it gets that far, but they know it usually want.  And an official can not lose his job over it as a coach can.  It is automatic dismissal at some school districts if you get ejected.  SO there goes there money for them and there family and the things they need. 
There may be some accountability but there is not much.

[jabu84]

[quote name="Two-Dogs..." post="955897" timestamp="1296158951"]
So under what circumstances would a ref end up taking the ride to austin? It seems to me there is no way that happens in reality.
[/quote]
that is not a fun trip had to make that trip once.

[east texas bb]

jabu84, be honest, I bet you thought twice before ejecting a coach again too?

[TeamJagUS]

[quote name="Two-Dogs..." post="955897" timestamp="1296158951"]
So under what circumstances would a ref end up taking the ride to austin? It seems to me there is no way that happens in reality.
[/quote]

thats a good question. i've been careful to avoid "specifics" in my posts, so i'll keep this is vague as possible because this thread is about changing the system (or at least some viewpoints that believe it should be changed) not lashing out about one particular incident.

this is what i saw tonight - no material impact on game, losing team just got beat, but to add insult to injury : in pretty much a blow out game a personal foul "miss-assigned" to a player (losing team) who was around nobody when the whistle was blown. apparently it was corrected eventually, but its not the first time this year this has happened. refs should be looking at [b]jerseys not faces[/b], some of our players "look similar", that shouldn't be penalized. i'll note that the "fouler" was under the goal and had a player piggy back riding him on a rebound attempt when he tried to dismount the rider with an elbow trying to get the offender off his back (he had just been forearmed in the back of the head) and the late whistle came after the opposing coach pointed it out to official (watch the game film coach, your guy was in the wrong, applauding that call showed alot of class-not).

same game a few plays later. personal foul called on player A (losing team), not a hard foul, typical holding foul on a breakaway layup. fouled player mouths to "fouler" and bumps into fouler. tech is called. we thought it was on the player who was fouled running his jaw but no, turns out it's on the fouler who is walking away from confrontation (if he "said" anything i don't see how any official could have heard him based on their positions). [b]this is where it gets good[/b]. tech is assigned to another player (who contacts no one anywhere in the play or after), who if he hadn't hustled his butt off to even get down court wouldn't even have been in the picture (theres some reward for you). just so happens to be same player who was ridden like a fair pony a few plays before, same official making the call....hmmmmm.

it gets better. team has new policy that if they get teched up they sit remainder of game and whole of next game. and even though the coach KNEW there had been an error benched him shortly after and his one game suspension is "pending".

so an official, without recourse, has carelessly and wrongfully caused a kid hustling his butt off for a team that quite regularly gets drummed to sit part of a game and possibly the entire next game.

somebody needs to be blowing that whistle when they use the toilet because he is obviously either biased or incompetent. in retrospect thats lashing out a little, but come on, how about some accountability....

ps - should add that until tonight i've seen a few fairly well called games in row, i guess its feast and famine. missing a call is one thing, calling the wrong number (especially when its called to your attention) seems fairly inexcusable.

[Wildcatter]

If in a baseball game the ball reaches the defensive players glove before the runner touches the base is he?

a.  safe
b.  out
c.  don't know
d.  know the call, but the kid hasn't had a hit, he runs slow but sure is cute so therefore I rule him safe as my interpretation of the rule.

Why should it be any different in baskeball?  You are not there to interpret you are there to enforce the rule.

[TeamJagUS]

[quote name="Wildcatter" post="957310" timestamp="1296329956"]
If in a baseball game the ball reaches the defensive players glove before the runner touches the base is he?

a.  safe
b.  out
c.  don't know
d.  know the call, but the kid hasn't had a hit, he runs slow but sure is cute so therefore I rule him safe as my interpretation of the rule.

Why should it be any different in baskeball?  You are not there to interpret you are there to enforce the rule.
[/quote]

he's out. did this land in the wrong thread? i miss the reference.

[trophyman]

not enough info. don't know if its a ground ball or a ball being thrown to a base or what

[DVILLE-GORILLA]

[quote name="trophyman" post="957444" timestamp="1296351017"]
not enough info. don't know if its a ground ball or a ball being thrown to a base or what
[/quote]I know this is not a baseball thread but, it is enough info.  Doesnt matter if the ball was hit on the ground or thrown, if the ball beats the runner (in a forse situation) the runner is out.

The point was, I believe, enforse the rules.

[trophyman]

it don't say its is hit to the base the runner is going to,  it also doesn't say its a force play

it could be hit to third and the runners going to first.  so there is not enough info.

it doesn't say if the ball was fielded clean or bobbled .  and we just want the guy getting payed to make that call to be honest and constant.

[Wildcatter]

Exactly, don't interpret, the rules are rules and they are there for a reason.  Football refs don't say, he didnt mean to block in the back.  Basketball refs should not interpret just enforce.  That simple.

[whambulance]

[quote name="DVILLE-GORILLA" post="957963" timestamp="1296493618"]
[quote author=trophyman link=topic=78978.msg957444#msg957444 date=1296351017]
not enough info. don't know if its a ground ball or a ball being thrown to a base or what
[/quote]I know this is not a baseball thread but, it is enough info.  Doesnt matter if the ball was hit on the ground or thrown, if the ball beats the runner (in a forse situation) the runner is out.

[b]The point was, I believe, enforse the rules[/b].
[/quote]I believe that's exactly what gorilla was saying!

[jabu84]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="956487" timestamp="1296240200"]
jabu84, be honest, I bet you thought twice before ejecting a coach again too?
[/quote]
East texas I had no choice he was cussing at my co official who was in his first year. I had to protect him. That was for the first tech. then the coach gives me a f bomb for giving him a tech. He had to go

[east texas bb]

Your absolutley right, if a coach is acting like that then you have to give him a technical.

I just know I have heard on other websites of a fan behind the coach saying something and the official through the coach out and he didnt say anything, it was the fan.  Another example, I could literally give examples all day, but Head Coach of basketball program is sitting on the end of bench of Freshman game to watch and help his Freshman coach, says one thing to official the entire game.  He ask the official to watch # player when he catches to shoot that he is travelling.  Official says ok.  Game is tied, 4th quarter, kid catches walks and makes a 3, no call, coach dosent raise voice but asks, was that not a travel?  Tech!  He said I can only speak to the head coach and since you are not head coach I do not have to listen to anything you say.  Coach gets a little mad then and says, I am not the head coach of the Freshman team but I am the Head coach of this program. Bam. Tech!  Now he has to go to UIL and Austin, and in some districts he would be fired. 
We all know what just happened in the example is absolutely absurd, but it happens all the time, because 1. SOME officials have a POWER issue, and 2.  There is no accountability system for the officials, but there are all kinds of accountability systems for coaches.

[True Blue]

Just a question, has anyone else seen this. When one team has players that are 3 or4 in. taller than the other team, the refs seem to let the smaller players beat and bang on the bigger  guy and  no call is made. But if the bigger guy playes the same def. on the smaller guy the ref call a pushing foul. They seem to try and even it up due to the one guy being smaller. I dont think that is in the rule book.

[east texas bb]

Actually TrueBlue I see more of the opposite.  You will usually see the teams that are more athletic (bigger/faster) allowed to get away with more IMO.  Occasionally I see an official who will call more on the bigger player under the basket, but it is rare. 

[UKCats]

Unfortunately the TECHNICAL FOUL is being used more and more by officials to take control of a game that has already been allowed to get out of hand. I remember in the old days if there was a little "extra curricular" activity after a play the officials would step in and tell the players to "clean it up" and play would continue. The biggest problem is most games are allowed to get out of hand when they could have been controlled better by calling a few more fouls. FORE EXAMPLE. . .if you let a pressure defense (i.e. full court trap) beat up on the guards for 3 quarters then expect the guard to eventually retaliate. These are hormonal high school boys and they are going to defend themselves when backed into a corner. Many would argue that calling more fouls interrupts the pace of play, but if you call a few early to set the tone the players will figure it out and in response will foul less. It just seems like common sense to me.

[east texas bb]

If offficials call the rules of the game by what the UIL rule book says then it is not their fault that pace of the game is.  It is the players fault and the coaches fault for teaching them to play beyond the rules.  I would think the reason an official is there is to keep the rules in force, not to make sure that the pace of the game is good for everyone in the stands.