The Elbow Rule?!?

[UKCats]

I have seen this call go several different ways.

I saw a [b]Technical Foul [/b] called for an elbow to the face because the players elbows were above his shoulders even though it was a controlled pivot. Correct me if I am wrong, but if the defensive player was that close then the officials should have been protecting the ball handler and even if the foul was called wouldn't a flagrant foul have been a more appropriate call?

2nd time I saw it happen it was called as a [b]violation, no foul[/b]. It was treated like a travel, double dribble, etc. This was probably the most suprising way I have seen it called.

Can anyone, maybe a coach or an official, shed any light on this subject?

[jabu84]

[quote name="UKCats" post="952864" timestamp="1295680888"]
I have seen this call go several different ways.

I saw a [b]Technical Foul [/b] called for an elbow to the face because the players elbows were above his shoulders even though it was a controlled pivot. Correct me if I am wrong, but if the defensive player was that close then the officials should have been protecting the ball handler and even if the foul was called wouldn't a flagrant foul have been a more appropriate call?

2nd time I saw it happen it was called as a [b]violation, no foul[/b]. It was treated like a travel, double dribble, etc. This was probably the most suprising way I have seen it called.

Can anyone, maybe a coach or an official, shed any light on this subject?
[/quote]

was the defensive player leaning on him or was there space between the two players?

[UKCats]

Almost seems irrelevant to me. If he was close enough to catch an elbow on a controlled pivot he was too close. No different than a blocking foul to me. If the defensive player was so close that he drew contact from the offensive player and wasn't "set" (there is some argument here as well) then it's a blocking foul. I like the original rule. . .if a player swings his elbows independent from his pivot it should be an offensive foul, otherwise it's a "no call" or a foul on the defense. Seems to me like this new rule puts a lot of pressure on the officials to protect the ball handler.

[jabu84]

[quote name="UKCats" post="953272" timestamp="1295769418"]
Almost seems irrelevant to me. If he was close enough to catch an elbow on a controlled pivot he was too close. No different than a blocking foul to me. If the defensive player was so close that he drew contact from the offensive player and wasn't "set" (there is some argument here as well) then it's a blocking foul. I like the original rule. . .if a player swings his elbows independent from his pivot it should be an offensive foul, otherwise it's a "no call" or a foul on the defense. Seems to me like this new rule puts a lot of pressure on the officials to protect the ball handler.
[/quote]

by rule if there space in between two players the defender is allowed to that spot. its a big deal this year if elbows are used to create space. in the beginning of the season as a chapter we were told to give techs if elbows were above the shoulders and use to create space. This came from the UIL

[whsalum]

I have seen them called a violation if contact is not made.It's a completely different call once contact is made and intent is ALWAYS an interpretation.

[CThoops]

If the defensive player gets that close to the guy after a rebound, then he deserves to get whacked in the face.. Its really a judgement call on the ref though.. If the player swings his elbow in a direct attempt to hit the other guy, then its a foul.. Other than that, the defensive guy needs to watch out and back off after he misses the board

[east texas bb]

The offensive player can not swing his elbows in a manner that "appears to be too aggressive"  this is where you get the officials "judgment".  But if the player gets the rebound and chins the basketball and pivots then I could not see where the foul could be called against him.

[UKCats]

It was explained to me like this. . ."regardles of intent if the offensive player makes contact with the defensive player's face and his elbows are above his shoulders it is at least a flagrant foul. Intentional foul and techincal fouls can be called if the official believes the strike was aggresive or intentional." Does anyone else think this is crap?

[CThoops]

[quote name="UKCats" post="953707" timestamp="1295844624"]
It was explained to me like this. . ."regardles of intent if the offensive player makes contact with the defensive player's face and his elbows are above his shoulders it is at least a flagrant foul. Intentional foul and techincal fouls can be called if the official believes the strike was aggresive or intentional." Does anyone else think this is crap?
[/quote]

Yeah, thats crap.. Watch basketball players start wearing mask just for the purpose of trying to draw that foul  ::)

[east texas bb]

The interpretation you got was an official who didnt know the rules so he made up the explaination.  You cant tell me that once a player has possession of the ball he can not "chin the ball and pivot".  That is one of first things I teach youth, no so much because they need to know it but because they have to hold the balls that way. Anyway, the official was incorrect, and there is plenty more of  that were that came from.

[jabu84]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="953721" timestamp="1295858096"]
The interpretation you got was an official who didnt know the rules so he made up the explaination.  You cant tell me that once a player has possession of the ball he can not "chin the ball and pivot".  That is one of first things I teach youth, no so much because they need to know it but because they have to hold the balls that way. Anyway, the official was incorrect, and there is plenty more of  that were that came from.
[/quote]

yeah he can chin and pivot. if he displaces the defender as he is turning with a elbow then its an offensive foul.

[east texas bb]

So the offensive player can not pivot?  If he has three defenders on him, he can not pivot in any direction or he misplaces a offensive player.  Then he should just chunk the ball up in the air.
Once the offense has the ball, they have space to move in any direction they choose.  They can not do it in the intent to injure someone or it is an offensive foul, but they can pivot in any direction they choose so long as they do not hit someone on purpose.

[UKCats]

If a defensive player has a right to his position (seemingly liner or more flat in nature) then shouldn't an offensive player have a right to his position (more circular in nature when the pivot is taken into consideration) If a defensive player is close enough to catch an elbow on a controlled pivot then I feel he is invading the "POSITION" of the offensive player. Yes or no?

[east texas bb]

UKCats you are correct.