Lifting Weights

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="954341" timestamp="1295987174"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg954308#msg954308 date=1295984418]
Is the issue whether or not to lift weights or is the issue when and how much to lift weights and at whose direction?  I am not a coach but rather a basketball enthusiast so my bias will probably show before this post is done.  My perception of a lot of schools is that the one size fits all approach may not always be the answer.   Does the basketball player have the same weight lifting needs and time dedication to weight lifting as the football player?  How about the track guy or the golfer or the tennis player?  If you have a limited amount of time each week to pursue excellence in your respective sport, does strength play as integral a part in the golf swing as it does on the football field?  Does one sport need more dedication to strength and less to skill than another?  I would think there is a good possibility that it does.  Why is the basketball coach or baseball coach less worthy to supervise his players weight lifting sessions than the football coach?  Is it a given that the football coach ALWAYS knows/understands more about conditioning than other coaches that work with him?  Kevin Durant was soundly criticized at the NBA combine for his inability to bench press a certain amount of weight.  LeBron and Kobe have bodies that make them look like Greek Gods.  The statistics suggest that Mr. Durant is contributing as much as Kobe or Lebron to his teams efforts despite his alleged "weakness". Oddly enough, he leads the NBA in scoring. Furthermore, I think it might be a serious mistake to fully define athleticism as muscles/speed only.  Much of it, in my opinion has to do with hand-eye coordination and development of same.  Its difficult for me to believe that lifting can help that as much as repetition of the selected athletic movement.
[/quote]Brilliant piece of
[/quote]

Well, it may not be omniscient, but it is, quite possibly, semi-logical

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="954341" timestamp="1295987174"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg954308#msg954308 date=1295984418]
Is the issue whether or not to lift weights or is the issue when and how much to lift weights and at whose direction?  I am not a coach but rather a basketball enthusiast so my bias will probably show before this post is done.  My perception of a lot of schools is that the one size fits all approach may not always be the answer.   Does the basketball player have the same weight lifting needs and time dedication to weight lifting as the football player?  How about the track guy or the golfer or the tennis player?  If you have a limited amount of time each week to pursue excellence in your respective sport, does strength play as integral a part in the golf swing as it does on the football field?  Does one sport need more dedication to strength and less to skill than another?  I would think there is a good possibility that it does.  Why is the basketball coach or baseball coach less worthy to supervise his players weight lifting sessions than the football coach?  Is it a given that the football coach ALWAYS knows/understands more about conditioning than other coaches that work with him?  Kevin Durant was soundly criticized at the NBA combine for his inability to bench press a certain amount of weight.  LeBron and Kobe have bodies that make them look like Greek Gods.  The statistics suggest that Mr. Durant is contributing as much as Kobe or Lebron to his teams efforts despite his alleged "weakness". Oddly enough, he leads the NBA in scoring. Furthermore, I think it might be a serious mistake to fully define athleticism as muscles/speed only.  Much of it, in my opinion has to do with hand-eye coordination and development of same.  Its difficult for me to believe that lifting can help that as much as repetition of the selected athletic movement.
[/quote]Brilliant piece of
[/quote]I hadn't finished this sentence :D

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="954421" timestamp="1295994283"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=79171.msg954341#msg954341 date=1295987174]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg954308#msg954308 date=1295984418]
Is the issue whether or not to lift weights or is the issue when and how much to lift weights and at whose direction?  I am not a coach but rather a basketball enthusiast so my bias will probably show before this post is done.  My perception of a lot of schools is that the one size fits all approach may not always be the answer.   Does the basketball player have the same weight lifting needs and time dedication to weight lifting as the football player?  How about the track guy or the golfer or the tennis player?  If you have a limited amount of time each week to pursue excellence in your respective sport, does strength play as integral a part in the golf swing as it does on the football field?  Does one sport need more dedication to strength and less to skill than another?  I would think there is a good possibility that it does.  Why is the basketball coach or baseball coach less worthy to supervise his players weight lifting sessions than the football coach?  Is it a given that the football coach ALWAYS knows/understands more about conditioning than other coaches that work with him?  Kevin Durant was soundly criticized at the NBA combine for his inability to bench press a certain amount of weight.  LeBron and Kobe have bodies that make them look like Greek Gods.  The statistics suggest that Mr. Durant is contributing as much as Kobe or Lebron to his teams efforts despite his alleged "weakness". Oddly enough, he leads the NBA in scoring. Furthermore, I think it might be a serious mistake to fully define athleticism as muscles/speed only.  Much of it, in my opinion has to do with hand-eye coordination and development of same.  Its difficult for me to believe that lifting can help that as much as repetition of the selected athletic movement.
[/quote]Brilliant piece of
[/quote]I hadn't finished this sentence :D
[/quote]  I understood that.  I also understood that, whatever the ending of the sentence was (good or bad) it certainlly would pale in comparison to your ability to predict the future.

[DTH]

Lifting weights is an integral part for any sports team to be able to compete year in and year out. Kevin Durants, and other "freaks" of nature come seldom in a lifetime.  Also, a select few players compared to how many playing in the NBA?  I would truly like more statistics on this one.  It is not how much you lift either; rather conditioning/strengthening of the muscle.  It would be nice if in my coaching career I would get an opportunity to coach someone of this magnitude. It just doesn't happen very often.

Secondly, scheduling is the main issue of getting things done when you have both boys and girls sports using facilities as well as other sports that are gearing up for their seasons.  Some of the things I have read make sense and some are just plain ludicrous. Lifting weights or participating in an offseason workout on game days are against UIL rules.  We also have an 8 hour rule that has to be followed.  All of these do it after practice statements or in the morning makes me wonder if some of you are following the UIL guidelines??

Head coaches control their sports and AD's control the sports program at that school or district. AD's are to develop the athlete in every sport.  A conditioning program that includes weights, cardio, and skills must be implemented across the board for this to occur.  I have been a head coach for several years and know that in some years this has been the only way we could have competed at all.  These conditioning programs also fosters mental toughness something that has diminished drastically from our high school athletes in the last 5-10 years.

I am sure we are making our athletes lift weights to PUMP our ego.  Go figure. Nice try for some of you our there trying to shift the blame.

[stevenash]

[quote name="DTH" post="954997" timestamp="1296054747"]
Lifting weights is an integral part for any sports team to be able to compete year in and year out. Kevin Durants, and other "freaks" of nature come seldom in a lifetime.  Also, a select few players compared to how many playing in the NBA?  I would truly like more statistics on this one.  It is not how much you lift either; rather conditioning/strengthening of the muscle.  It would be nice if in my coaching career I would get an opportunity to coach someone of this magnitude. It just doesn't happen very often.

Secondly, scheduling is the main issue of getting things done when you have both boys and girls sports using facilities as well as other sports that are gearing up for their seasons.  Some of the things I have read make sense and some are just plain ludicrous. Lifting weights or participating in an offseason workout on game days are against UIL rules.  We also have an 8 hour rule that has to be followed.  All of these do it after practice statements or in the morning makes me wonder if some of you are following the UIL guidelines??

Head coaches control their sports and AD's control the sports program at that school or district. AD's are to develop the athlete in every sport.  A conditioning program that includes weights, cardio, and skills must be implemented across the board for this to occur.  I have been a head coach for several years and know that in some years this has been the only way we could have competed at all.  These conditioning programs also fosters mental toughness something that has diminished drastically from our high school athletes in the last 5-10 years.

I am sure we are making our athletes lift weights to PUMP our ego.  Go figure. Nice try for some of you our there trying to shift the blame.

[/quote]

Have no interest in where blame is "shifted".  Just tell me why the coaches in basketball, baseball, and other sports are less qualified to prescribe/supervise the lifting program for kids who are not involved in the football program.  Could they possibly know that some alternative weight program would be more beneficial to a participant in another sport?The "other" method creates the impression that football is the only sport that matters.  When you say it was "the only way we could have competed at all" are you referring to football or some other sport?  If you believe Kevin Durant is the exception, please show me the well developed speed/strength of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton.

[DTH]

bird, mchale, and magic could not compete with today's athletes without such training nowadays.  Find someone that has strength and conditioning knowledge and let them develop the program if you do not have a person like that employed which most of us do not.  I have coached every sport except for volleyball and girls track. I have an idea.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Lt. Dangle" post="953856" timestamp="1295894039"]
[quote author=hjhawks link=topic=79171.msg953843#msg953843 date=1295892903]
Nothing wrong with your post except the fact that it should be the head coaches decision to lift or not...  We all know that the AD makes decisions, but they should (And probably are) made with the coaches input.  As a track coach, it is great that you want your kids to lift..that is your decision.... would you feel the same if they were made to lift on the day of a meet?  (May not happen at EC, but it does at other places.)

The whole thing is about who controls practice...the AD or the HC...you could replace any school for EC and the argument is still a good one..
-Mike
[/quote]
Coach Valastro is as good as they come & for anyone to post on here otherwise tells everyone that you don't have a clue what it takes to run a successful athletic program. Most of these witchhunts stem from a parent with a son/daughter whose getting no playing time.
[/quote]I'm glad you said "most." I was more concerned because of a year round regiment of organized sports activities versus a kid whose active for less months. You don't use the same regimen ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="DTH" post="955167" timestamp="1296068928"]
bird, mchale, and magic could not compete with today's athletes without such training nowadays.  Find someone that has strength and conditioning knowledge and let them develop the program if you do not have a person like that employed which most of us do not.  I have coached every sport except for volleyball and girls track. I have an idea.
[/quote]

And I am suggesting that the chances are more than good that the baseball coach can prescribe and supervise a weight program for his players that may be more conducive to success for the baseball team/player than the football weight regimen will.  I further suggest the same applies to the other sports unless the coaches are incompetent.  We should not assume, EVER, that the football coach knows more about ANYTHING except the game of football.  I disagree with your contention that "bird, mchale, magic couldnt compete nowadays."  If that is the case, you are also saying that Paul Pierce, Manu Ginobli, Richard Hamilton, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, and Pau Gasol(to name a few) also could not compete with todays "athletes"

[DTH]

I am sure those guys don't use weights.  Yeah right!!! Baseball guys do largely the same weight exercises as football guys. For everyone person you find that agrees you will always find a malcontent.

[stevenash]

[quote name="DTH" post="955361" timestamp="1296088459"]
I am sure those guys don't use weights.  Yeah right!!! Baseball guys do largely the same weight exercises as football guys. For everyone person you find that agrees you will always find a malcontent.
[/quote]

I dont believe I said that those guys dont use weights.  I also believe you understood my point, but do not wish to acknowledge it.  Furthermore, to suggest that three Hall of Famers could not compete in todays game is totally without merit.  I still would like for you to have me understand why the athletes from other sports are better served using the football weight regimen than one provided for and supervised by their own coach.  Because of limited time available at the high school level, I would also suggest that in some instances, the need for skill improvement takes priority to the need for more strength.  Not saying there should not be lifting, but suggesting , once again, the coach of each respective sport is MUCH better suited to know what serves his players/teams interest best.

[WOSgrad]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955369" timestamp="1296089999"]
[quote author=DTH link=topic=79171.msg955361#msg955361 date=1296088459]
I am sure those guys don't use weights.  Yeah right!!! Baseball guys do largely the same weight exercises as football guys. For everyone person you find that agrees you will always find a malcontent.
[/quote]

I dont believe I said that those guys dont use weights.  I also believe you understood my point, but do not wish to acknowledge it.  Furthermore, to suggest that three Hall of Famers could not compete in todays game is totally without merit.  I still would like for you to have me understand why the athletes from other sports are better served using the football weight regimen than one provided for and supervised by their own coach.  Because of limited time available at the high school level, I would also suggest that in some instances, the need for skill improvement takes priority to the need for more strength.  Not saying there should not be lifting, but suggesting , once again, the coach of each respective sport is MUCH better suited to know what serves his players/teams interest best.
[/quote]

Your responses seem to assume that the coaches of the respective sports have no say in the type of weight training...and assumption that if I read DTH and play defense's posts correctly are not the case.

[Riding Solo]

How about, most but not all coaches know what is best for their athlete's and if you disagree then become a coach, if not then your opinion really does not matter and neither does the parents. ;D

[stevenash]

[quote name="WOSgrad" post="955392" timestamp="1296092128"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg955369#msg955369 date=1296089999]
[quote author=DTH link=topic=79171.msg955361#msg955361 date=1296088459]
I am sure those guys don't use weights.  Yeah right!!! Baseball guys do largely the same weight exercises as football guys. For everyone person you find that agrees you will always find a malcontent.
[/quote]

I dont believe I said that those guys dont use weights.  I also believe you understood my point, but do not wish to acknowledge it.  Furthermore, to suggest that three Hall of Famers could not compete in todays game is totally without merit.  I still would like for you to have me understand why the athletes from other sports are better served using the football weight regimen than one provided for and supervised by their own coach.  Because of limited time available at the high school level, I would also suggest that in some instances, the need for skill improvement takes priority to the need for more strength.  Not saying there should not be lifting, but suggesting , once again, the coach of each respective sport is MUCH better suited to know what serves his players/teams interest best.
[/quote]

Your responses seem to assume that the coaches of the respective sports have no say in the type of weight training...and assumption that if I read DTH and play defense's posts correctly are not the case.
[/quote]I agree with that and it would be wrong to make said assumption.  My reference is to what I know of as "universal offseason" and my understanding is that all athletes must participate in the football weight lifting program year round.  I simply believe, rightly or wrongly, that there are many instances where that approach is counterproductive for other sports.  Perhaps I do not understand that program properly.  If it gives the other coaches some latitude in selecting the timing and volume of  lifting to be done, I retract my comments.  However, I believe I understand that situation correctly and have difficulty in believing a one size fits all approach is, without fail, the best for all involved.  If the golfer spends 15 more minutes refining his putting stroke, I can unequivocally promise you better results than 15 more minutes on the weight bench.  I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.

[Riding Solo]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955431" timestamp="1296095846"]
[quote author=WOSgrad link=topic=79171.msg955392#msg955392 date=1296092128]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg955369#msg955369 date=1296089999]
[quote author=DTH link=topic=79171.msg955361#msg955361 date=1296088459]
I am sure those guys don't use weights.  Yeah right!!! Baseball guys do largely the same weight exercises as football guys. For everyone person you find that agrees you will always find a malcontent.
[/quote]

I dont believe I said that those guys dont use weights.  I also believe you understood my point, but do not wish to acknowledge it.  Furthermore, to suggest that three Hall of Famers could not compete in todays game is totally without merit.  I still would like for you to have me understand why the athletes from other sports are better served using the football weight regimen than one provided for and supervised by their own coach.  Because of limited time available at the high school level, I would also suggest that in some instances, the need for skill improvement takes priority to the need for more strength.  Not saying there should not be lifting, but suggesting , once again, the coach of each respective sport is MUCH better suited to know what serves his players/teams interest best.
[/quote]

Your responses seem to assume that the coaches of the respective sports have no say in the type of weight training...and assumption that if I read DTH and play defense's posts correctly are not the case.
[/quote]I agree with that and it would be wrong to make said assumption.  My reference is to what I know of as "universal offseason" and my understanding is that all athletes must participate in the football weight lifting program year round.  I simply believe, rightly or wrongly, that there are many instances where that approach is counterproductive for other sports.  Perhaps I do not udnerstand that program properly.  If it gives the other coaches some latitude in selecting the timing and volume of  lifting to be done, I retract my comments.  However, I believe I understand that situation correctly and have difficulty in believing a one size fits all approach is, without fail, the best for all involved.  If the golfer spends 15 more minutes refining his putting stroke, I can unequivocally promise you better results than 15 more minutes on the weight bench.  I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.
[/quote]

What benefits the linebacker is football prepares a young man for life more then any other sport.

[diggstown]

If you want a firstbaseman that hits like Adam Everett keep them out of the weightroom. On the flipside most coaches would prefer a player with upper and lower bodystrength, flexibility  developed fast twitch muscle fibers that lead to speed and power and a good body comp. I believe all of those attributes can lead to success in most sports male or female. And it is very difficult to accomplish these things without a complete workout . regiment that includes strength training.  I just talked to Albert pujols and he told me he hits all of those bombs off the lastros because of zumba. Debate settled.

[Riding Solo]

[quote name="diggstown" post="955503" timestamp="1296099740"]
If you want a firstbaseman that hits like Adam Everett keep them out of the weightroom. On the flipside most coaches would prefer a player with upper and lower bodystrength, flexibility   developed fast twitch muscle fibers that lead to speed and power and a good body comp. I believe all of those attributes can lead to success in most sports male or female. And it is very difficult to accomplish these things without a complete workout . regiment that includes strength training.  I just talked to Albert pujols and he told me he hits all of those bombs off the lastros because of zumba. Debate settled.
[/quote]

Great post, love it. Very original!!!!!!!

[stevenash]

[quote name="diggstown" post="955503" timestamp="1296099740"]
If you want a firstbaseman that hits like Adam Everett keep them out of the weightroom. On the flipside most coaches would prefer a player with upper and lower bodystrength, flexibility   developed fast twitch muscle fibers that lead to speed and power and a good body comp. I believe all of those attributes can lead to success in most sports male or female. And it is very difficult to accomplish these things without a complete workout . regiment that includes strength training.  I just talked to Albert pujols and he told me he hits all of those bombs off the lastros because of zumba. Debate settled.
[/quote]

Glad you and Albert were able to resolve this issue so quickly.  I wonder if Albert believes his ability to properly time the ptich, swing the bat and make good contact is more important than the size of his forearms or vice versa?

[diggstown]

And yes I know Everett didn't play 1rst before y'all jump through the chtomputer screen.

[Riding Solo]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955517" timestamp="1296100487"]
[quote author=diggstown link=topic=79171.msg955503#msg955503 date=1296099740]
If you want a firstbaseman that hits like Adam Everett keep them out of the weightroom. On the flipside most coaches would prefer a player with upper and lower bodystrength, flexibility   developed fast twitch muscle fibers that lead to speed and power and a good body comp. I believe all of those attributes can lead to success in most sports male or female. And it is very difficult to accomplish these things without a complete workout . regiment that includes strength training.  I just talked to Albert pujols and he told me he hits all of those bombs off the lastros because of zumba. Debate settled.
[/quote]

Glad you and Albert were able to resolve this issue so quickly.  I wonder if Albert believes his ability to properly time the ptich, swing the bat and make good contact is more important than the size of his forearms or vice versa?
[/quote]

I think the size of his forearms has something to do with his "power" yes it must be the weight training. Eye/hand coordination is born not something weight lifting can give you.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Riding Solo" post="955530" timestamp="1296101783"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg955517#msg955517 date=1296100487]
[quote author=diggstown link=topic=79171.msg955503#msg955503 date=1296099740]
If you want a firstbaseman that hits like Adam Everett keep them out of the weightroom. On the flipside most coaches would prefer a player with upper and lower bodystrength, flexibility   developed fast twitch muscle fibers that lead to speed and power and a good body comp. I believe all of those attributes can lead to success in most sports male or female. And it is very difficult to accomplish these things without a complete workout . regiment that includes strength training.  I just talked to Albert pujols and he told me he hits all of those bombs off the lastros because of zumba. Debate settled.
[/quote]

Glad you and Albert were able to resolve this issue so quickly.  I wonder if Albert believes his ability to properly time the ptich, swing the bat and make good contact is more important than the size of his forearms or vice versa?
[/quote]

I think the size of his forearms has something to do with his "power" yes it must be the weight training. Eye/hand coordination is born not something weight lifting can give you.
[/quote]  Hand- eye coordination is developed over time like any other skill. 

[diggstown]

No doubt players of that caliber have great hand/eye coordination.  Its very similar to steroids debate.do you want players with warning track power. Or one that hits the deep ball. Skill is a requirement,  power is optional. Ill take both if I get to choose. Plenty of practice to promote sklls and strength training to increase power.

[stevenash]

[quote name="diggstown" post="955637" timestamp="1296135624"]
No doubt players of that caliber have great hand/eye coordination.  Its very similar to steroids debate.do you want players with warning track power. Or one that hits the deep ball. Skill is a requirement,  power is optional. Ill take both if I get to choose. Plenty of practice to promote sklls and strength training to increase power.
[/quote]

My suggestion is that, if the skills are insufficient, the amount of strength one possesses has little, if any value.

[Da Boss]

hey finger roll, i was at the game also. I don't believe hardin lost because the ball wasn't in #4's hands. They have many girls that can drive to the basket. & i didn't see ec making many mistakes by turning the ball over. That was a great game. As for as lay-ups and freethrows, that went both ways. Hardin missed alot of freethrows and lay-ups!

[finger roll]

I'll agree to disagree.  #4 is the catalyst for Hardin and controlled the game in the first half.  She went with about 3 min to go in the first half with 3 fouls.  When the second half started she didn't have the ball in her hands nearly as much as in the first half.  Part of that is because Carrington was denying her the ball some of that time.

[sfasuljack]

[/quote]

I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.
[/quote]


What happens when the LB is the 1st baseman... and TE... and 800m runner? Especially at 3A and below, multi-sport athletes are critical to every programs success. And I would argue that squats, power cleans, bench, incline & dead lift are critical to building the explosion needed to be a successful point guard, QB, lineman, golfer, volleyball player, etc...

Durants a great player. Could he be even better if he were stronger? Could he even jump higher & run faster with additional stength development? I say yes. Its not skill OR strength development, the ideal is BOTH. Would Dwight Howard be as good with Durants strength?

Besides, we're talking HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES, not professionals. And most good high school athletes compete in multiple sports and hence are 'in season' year round. So, a healthy dose of some type of base level/general weight program is needed that has benefits to all sports. My vote goes to the 5 lifts I mentioned above.