Lifting Weights

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955517" timestamp="1296100487"]
[quote author=diggstown link=topic=79171.msg955503#msg955503 date=1296099740]
If you want a firstbaseman that hits like Adam Everett keep them out of the weightroom. On the flipside most coaches would prefer a player with upper and lower bodystrength, flexibility   developed fast twitch muscle fibers that lead to speed and power and a good body comp. I believe all of those attributes can lead to success in most sports male or female. And it is very difficult to accomplish these things without a complete workout . regiment that includes strength training.  I just talked to Albert pujols and he told me he hits all of those bombs off the lastros because of zumba. Debate settled.
[/quote]

Glad you and Albert were able to resolve this issue so quickly.  I wonder if Albert believes his ability to properly time the ptich, swing the bat and make good contact is more important than the size of his forearms or vice versa?
[/quote]


I'm guessing he'd say both are equally important.

[Guest speechless]

Do some research on what lebron does for strength training.  YOGA.  yes i said yoga.  he does zero traidtional lifting.


as for multi-sport high school athletes the bottom line is some sports require more skill than others

one reason antonio gates never played a down of college football but was able to become an nfl all pro.

so when time is limited and choices must be made some sports benefit more from skill time than from strength development

besides inseason strength training is simply maintenance lifting anyway its not like they would be out pulling tires or something

[stevenash]

[quote name="sfasuljack" post="955702" timestamp="1296141793"]

[/quote]

I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.
[/quote]


What happens when the LB is the 1st baseman... and TE... and 800m runner? Especially at 3A and below, multi-sport athletes are critical to every programs success. And I would argue that squats, power cleans, bench, incline & dead lift are critical to building the explosion needed to be a successful point guard, QB, lineman, golfer, volleyball player, etc...

Durants a great player. Could he be even better if he were stronger? Could he even jump higher & run faster with additional stength development? I say yes. Its not skill OR strength development, the ideal is BOTH. Would Dwight Howard be as good with Durants strength?

Besides, we're talking HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES, not professionals. And most good high school athletes compete in multiple sports and hence are 'in season' year round. So, a healthy dose of some type of base level/general weight program is needed that has benefits to all sports. My vote goes to the 5 lifts I mentioned above.
[/quote]  Sorry but I want my point guard to be proficient at shooting, dribbling, and passing.  If he can do those three things at a very high level, I will not be concerned about his explosiveness.  Sure, it would be nice to have that explosiveness, but ABSOLUTELY NOT at the expense of developing the other three.  While I must admit that Howards strength contributes materially to his success, you must admit that Durants skills more than offset his lack of strength.  And I STILL have not heard anybody tell me why the coach for each sport is not equally and/or better qualified to prescribe and supervise his players lifting regimen as opposed instead of the football coach.

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="speechless" post="955707" timestamp="1296142323"]
Do some research on what lebron does for strength training.  YOGA.  yes i said yoga.  he does zero traidtional lifting.


as for multi-sport high school athletes the bottom line is some sports require more skill than others

one reason antonio gates never played a down of college football but was able to become an nfl all pro.

so when time is limited and choices must be made some sports benefit more from skill time than from strength development

besides inseason strength training is simply maintenance lifting anyway its not like they would be out pulling tires or something
[/quote]


Let's say I'm a football, basketball, baseball guy. You say only do maintenance work in season. From the 7th thru the 12th grade, when exactly do I get stronger??? I'm always in season! And please don't say the summer cause we know I'd have select ball, aau ball, and 7on7 games. Again, when do I get stronger?

[Guest speechless]

during the summer

much more free time and no practice time constraints

and the uil allows for organized strength and conditioning practices all summer long, 2 hours a day, 4 days a week

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955709" timestamp="1296142718"]
[quote author=sfasuljack link=topic=79171.msg955702#msg955702 date=1296141793]

[/quote]

I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.
[/quote]


What happens when the LB is the 1st baseman... and TE... and 800m runner? Especially at 3A and below, multi-sport athletes are critical to every programs success. And I would argue that squats, power cleans, bench, incline & dead lift are critical to building the explosion needed to be a successful point guard, QB, lineman, golfer, volleyball player, etc...

Durants a great player. Could he be even better if he were stronger? Could he even jump higher & run faster with additional stength development? I say yes. Its not skill OR strength development, the ideal is BOTH. Would Dwight Howard be as good with Durants strength?

Besides, we're talking HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES, not professionals. And most good high school athletes compete in multiple sports and hence are 'in season' year round. So, a healthy dose of some type of base level/general weight program is needed that has benefits to all sports. My vote goes to the 5 lifts I mentioned above.
[/quote]  Sorry but I want my point guard to be proficient at shooting, dribbling, and passing.  If he can do those three things at a very high level, I will not be concerned about his explosiveness.  Sure, it would be nice to have that explosiveness, but ABSOLUTELY NOT at the expense of developing the other three.  While I must admit that Howards strength contributes materially to his success, you must admit that Durants skills more than offset his lack of strength.  And I STILL have not heard anybody tell me why the coach for each sport is not equally and/or better qualified to prescribe and supervise his players lifting regimen as opposed instead of the football coach.
[/quote]


I want my PG to be proicient as those as well and be able fly all over the court and jump outta the gym and be physical because my PG must play defense. And just to play devil's advocate... i'm betting my more explosive athlete will defend ur 'skill only' guy nicely. But again, it's not either/or, you need both IMO.

[stevenash]

[quote name="sfasuljack" post="955715" timestamp="1296143398"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg955709#msg955709 date=1296142718]
[quote author=sfasuljack link=topic=79171.msg955702#msg955702 date=1296141793]

[/quote]

I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.
[/quote]


What happens when the LB is the 1st baseman... and TE... and 800m runner? Especially at 3A and below, multi-sport athletes are critical to every programs success. And I would argue that squats, power cleans, bench, incline & dead lift are critical to building the explosion needed to be a successful point guard, QB, lineman, golfer, volleyball player, etc...

Durants a great player. Could he be even better if he were stronger? Could he even jump higher & run faster with additional stength development? I say yes. Its not skill OR strength development, the ideal is BOTH. Would Dwight Howard be as good with Durants strength?

Besides, we're talking HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES, not professionals. And most good high school athletes compete in multiple sports and hence are 'in season' year round. So, a healthy dose of some type of base level/general weight program is needed that has benefits to all sports. My vote goes to the 5 lifts I mentioned above.
[/quote]  Sorry but I want my point guard to be proficient at shooting, dribbling, and passing.  If he can do those three things at a very high level, I will not be concerned about his explosiveness.  Sure, it would be nice to have that explosiveness, but ABSOLUTELY NOT at the expense of developing the other three.  While I must admit that Howards strength contributes materially to his success, you must admit that Durants skills more than offset his lack of strength.  And I STILL have not heard anybody tell me why the coach for each sport is not equally and/or better qualified to prescribe and supervise his players lifting regimen as opposed instead of the football coach.
[/quote]


I want my PG to be proicient as those as well and be able fly all over the court and jump outta the gym and be physical because my PG must play defense. And just to play devil's advocate... i'm betting my more explosive athlete will defend ur 'skill only' guy nicely. But again, it's not either/or, you need both IMO.
[/quote]  Bet all you wish, but Kevin Durant and Paul Pierce are going to score against Ron Artest whenever they want to.  I am not advocating not having weight training.  Please answer my oft asked question (which everyone conveniently ignores) Why is the football coach better qualified to know what strength training and what volume of same will benefit the basketball player than the basketball coach?

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="speechless" post="955713" timestamp="1296143159"]
during the summer

much more free time and no practice time constraints

and the uil allows for organized strength and conditioning practices all summer long, 2 hours a day, 4 days a week
[/quote]

How bout 'parent' constraints? As in, little johnny can't lift today because he has a 7on7 game tonight. Oh, and he can't lift tomorrow b/c its bball league night. And wednesday he has game with his school summer league team. He can get stronger thursday they tell me as long as he's not too sore for the weekend... Cause, coach, he'll be outta town with his select baseball team for a tournament:) Again, when does that athlete get stronger? Guess he just needs to specialize ;)

The UIL may allow it, but you cannot 'require' ur athletes to attend summer conditioning. It's voluntary. Been in coaching almost ten years and have yet to coach at a place where kids lift the way they need to lift 'on their own'. Can count on one hand the kids I've coached who've had that type of work ethic. They need to be pushed by coaches.  Guess ur lucky enough to coach at a place where all ur athletes have that type of drive. And you must have enough of them so they can all be one sport guys;)

[Guest speechless]

summer games dont count is the easy answer to those complaints

if your sport or athlete requires strength gain in order to be successful and you have communicated that to the athlete then perhaps there are larger issues with that athlete

no one is saying only play one sport

just saying that the coach hired to be the head coach of the sport should be able to decide when and how to lift the kids during that sport so that it best fits the schedule he/she thinks will benefit their team the most

also, the million dollar question is: is it the same across the board for all sports?  you and i both know the answer to that 

guarantee that the lifting becomes much more important and stringent once football season is over

[stevenash]

I will  respectfully ask this one more time.  If you dont respond, ok.  Why is the football coach better qualified to prescribe/supervise the weight lifting program for basketball players or baseball players?  Is there an assumption that the football coach somehow knows something about lifting that the other coaches do not? (give me a break)  If the football coach believes/knows that his athletes should spend x% of their time each week getting stronger and X% of their time developing their skills, why must that be the same for other sports?  What if the basketball coach or baseball coach believes that his time should be divided up by .9x% and 1.1X% respectively?  What if the baseball coach has a good defensive player that is batting 150 and believes he can win an extra few games if he can get that player to bat around 225.  Will the batting average improve if he lifts more or if he dedicates additional time to his swinging/hitting technique?

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955719" timestamp="1296144116"]
[quote author=sfasuljack link=topic=79171.msg955715#msg955715 date=1296143398]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=79171.msg955709#msg955709 date=1296142718]
[quote author=sfasuljack link=topic=79171.msg955702#msg955702 date=1296141793]

[/quote]

I think it is a mistake to believe what benefits the linebacker has  equal benefits to the first baseman.
[/quote]


What happens when the LB is the 1st baseman... and TE... and 800m runner? Especially at 3A and below, multi-sport athletes are critical to every programs success. And I would argue that squats, power cleans, bench, incline & dead lift are critical to building the explosion needed to be a successful point guard, QB, lineman, golfer, volleyball player, etc...

Durants a great player. Could he be even better if he were stronger? Could he even jump higher & run faster with additional stength development? I say yes. Its not skill OR strength development, the ideal is BOTH. Would Dwight Howard be as good with Durants strength?

Besides, we're talking HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES, not professionals. And most good high school athletes compete in multiple sports and hence are 'in season' year round. So, a healthy dose of some type of base level/general weight program is needed that has benefits to all sports. My vote goes to the 5 lifts I mentioned above.
[/quote]  Sorry but I want my point guard to be proficient at shooting, dribbling, and passing.  If he can do those three things at a very high level, I will not be concerned about his explosiveness.  Sure, it would be nice to have that explosiveness, but ABSOLUTELY NOT at the expense of developing the other three.  While I must admit that Howards strength contributes materially to his success, you must admit that Durants skills more than offset his lack of strength.  And I STILL have not heard anybody tell me why the coach for each sport is not equally and/or better qualified to prescribe and supervise his players lifting regimen as opposed instead of the football coach.
[/quote]


I want my PG to be proicient as those as well and be able fly all over the court and jump outta the gym and be physical because my PG must play defense. And just to play devil's advocate... i'm betting my more explosive athlete will defend ur 'skill only' guy nicely. But again, it's not either/or, you need both IMO.
[/quote]  Bet all you wish, but Kevin Durant and Paul Pierce are going to score against Ron Artest whenever they want to.  I am not advocating not having weight training.   Please answer my oft asked question (which everyone conveniently ignores) Why is the football coach better qualified to know what strength training and what volume of same will benefit the basketball player than the basketball coach?
[/quote]

The AD sets the basic strength program and it should include lifts that benefit all sports. I like bench, incline, squat, power clean, dead lift for all sports.

You keep talkin pros. I'm talkin HS. I've seen many straight basketball guys get overwhelmed when defended by the stronger/faster guy who plays BOTH football and basketball. I want to compete in all sports. To do that at 3A and below you have to some type of consistent strenght development (not maintenance, development) throughout the school year. When ur best athletes are one sport guys at my level, the overall athletic program suffers.

[AggiesAreWe]

This statement that I copied from the previous post above, says it all:


[b]When ur best athletes are one sport guys at my level, the overall athletic program suffers.[/b]

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="speechless" post="955732" timestamp="1296145138"]
summer games dont count is the easy answer to those complaints

if your sport or athlete requires strength gain in order to be successful and you have communicated that to the athlete then perhaps there are larger issues with that athlete

no one is saying only play one sport

just saying that the coach hired to be the head coach of the sport should be able to decide when and how to lift the kids during that sport so that it best fits the schedule he/she thinks will benefit their team the most

also, the million dollar question is: is it the same across the board for all sports?  you and i both know the answer to that 

guarantee that the lifting becomes much more important and stringent once football season is over
[/quote]

What games do count? Just varsity? How bout sub varsity? Does Jr. High count? Let me know so I can tell parents. In my experience, most parents think they all count so they don't want little johnny to ever lift on any kind of game day. And since they're always 'in season' they shouldn't lift heavy, right?;)

And which sports exactly don't require strength to be successful? Even better, in which sport is the weaker skilled player better than the stronger skilled player in that sport? Gonna be long list I'm sure:)

[stevenash]

[quote name="sfasuljack" post="955750" timestamp="1296146831"]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=79171.msg955732#msg955732 date=1296145138]
summer games dont count is the easy answer to those complaints

if your sport or athlete requires strength gain in order to be successful and you have communicated that to the athlete then perhaps there are larger issues with that athlete

no one is saying only play one sport

just saying that the coach hired to be the head coach of the sport should be able to decide when and how to lift the kids during that sport so that it best fits the schedule he/she thinks will benefit their team the most

also, the million dollar question is: is it the same across the board for all sports?  you and i both know the answer to that 

guarantee that the lifting becomes much more important and stringent once football season is over
[/quote]

What games do count? Just varsity? How bout sub varsity? Does Jr. High count? Let me know so I can tell parents. In my experience, most parents think they all count so they don't want little johnny to ever lift on any kind of game day. And since they're always 'in season' they shouldn't lift heavy, right?;)

And which sports exactly don't require strength to be successful? Even better, in which sport is the weaker skilled player better than the stronger skilled player in that sport? Gonna be long list I'm sure:)
[/quote]

No question that the stronger skilled player is better than the weaker skilled player assuming skill level is identical. I would ask you in this manner, how much emphasis should be put on strength and how much on skill and why does ONLY the football coach have the right answer for athletes specializing in other sports?

[stevenash]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="955741" timestamp="1296146253"]
This statement that I copied from the previous post above, says it all:


[b]When ur best athletes are one sport guys at my level, the overall athletic program suffers.[/b]




[/quote]

And the solution to that issue is ?

[sfasuljack]

Tough question on how much of each. If I had the perfect answer, I'd be makin alot more money coaching:). Just feel they're both extremely important. Not a one or the other kinda guy.

It's the AD that sets the direction of the program. They are supposed to look at what's best for all sports and kids. That's the ideal. But we all know there are good ones and bad ones, just like any other profession.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="stevenash" post="955767" timestamp="1296148078"]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=79171.msg955741#msg955741 date=1296146253]
This statement that I copied from the previous post above, says it all:


[b]When ur best athletes are one sport guys at my level, the overall athletic program suffers.[/b]




[/quote]

And the solution to that issue is ?
[/quote]



Coaches and parents should encourage and not discourage. Small schools have to have multi sport athletes to have a successful athletic program.

Example, Silsbee. Some say they are not a small school, but they are 3A. They do well in multiple sports. Yes, they have athletes, but the program encourages them to play multi sports. Look at Silsbee's boys varsity basketball team, 8 of the 12 players played football, but yet are successful on the court.

[Guest speechless]

skill is more important in some sports as opposed to others

basketball is a skill sport and when a choice must be made between time on the court or time in the weight room (due to time restrictions) you take time on the court because skill wins out in basketball

you keep referring to "one sport guys" where has anyone said that athletes should spcialize?

no one has said that

only that the head coach of the sport should be allowed to determine when and how his players should lift in their season

strength does benefit all sports but i have met many a very strong man who can't put the ball in the hole, who can't get a serve in, and who cant connect with a 75 mph pitch

again why do you think antonio gates was able to play in the nfl without ever playing a down of college football?

football doesn't require near the skill level of other sports so if you are an athlete you can excel

that is why you don't see guys that played college football and not basketball going to the nba

[sfasuljack]

Think it might have something more to do with height or a lack thereof... basketball, in general, is more dependent on height than any other major sport. If you don't pass the height requirement in basketball, you have to be ridiculously talented and skilled to make it. 6' guard (small), 6' DB/WR (avg)... 6'2" guard (above avg), 6'2" DB/WR (big), 6'4" guard (startin to hit bball range), 6'4" DB/WR (huge)... you get the idea. Same is true in football, the heights just aren't as high.

Bottom line for me is if a kid is good at and likes multiple sports, I'd advise them to play them. It's  multiple bites at a free education. If they choose one or the other, they better be right, cause college scholarships are in short supply, especially when you consider how many kids want them.

I'd be good with head coach of a sport being in charge of their lifting as long as they believe in strength development thru every season from 7th-12th grade. I hear 'in season' and 'maintenance' in the same sentence and I'd be way off board. And if I were an AD, we'd be testing all along the way to verify the kids strength, agility, speed, vertical, etc... was improving. And yes, even thru football season. And again, I'm talkin 3a and below, which I prefer. I enjoy coaching the same kids in multiple sports.

[stevenash]

[quote name="sfasuljack" post="955845" timestamp="1296155237"]
Think it might have something more to do with height or a lack thereof... basketball, in general, is more dependent on height than any other major sport. If you don't pass the height requirement in basketball, you have to be ridiculously talented and skilled to make it. 6' guard (small), 6' DB/WR (avg)... 6'2" guard (above avg), 6'2" DB/WR (big), 6'4" guard (startin to hit bball range), 6'4" DB/WR (huge)... you get the idea. Same is true in football, the heights just aren't as high.

Bottom line for me is if a kid is good at and likes multiple sports, I'd advise them to play them. It's  multiple bites at a free education. If they choose one or the other, they better be right, cause college scholarships are in short supply, especially when you consider how many kids want them.

I'd be good with head coach of a sport being in charge of their lifting as long as they believe in strength development thru every season from 7th-12th grade. I hear 'in season' and 'maintenance' in the same sentence and I'd be way off board. And if I were an AD, we'd be testing all along the way to verify the kids strength, agility, speed, vertical, etc... was improving. And yes, even thru football season. And again, I'm talkin 3a and below, which I prefer. I enjoy coaching the same kids in multiple sports.
[/quote]  I agree with your entire statement.  If a short guy has to be "ridiculously talented" or "ridiculously SKILLED", then for him to have a chance, wouldn't it stand to  reason that he had better pay more attention to honing that skill than developing more muscles.

[Guest speechless]

so you are saying antonio gates was able to become an all pro TE because of his height?  seriously?

LOL!  he is living proof that football requires largely just athleticism to successful

why do you think terrell owens, randy moss, and tony gonzales could not make an automatic jump to the NBA?

because while they are good athletes they are not skilled enough to do so

and all of them are tall enough too

[SKINS]

I will say this as a Multi sport athlete. Its not that the Football coaches know what they are doing better than a baseball coach, most schools usually have a Strength and Conditioning coach that runs the workouts for the entire athletic program. Typically he is also a Football coach. The he generally gets about an hour a day to make the athletes stronger, faster, in better shape, and ect. He generally runs the camps as well. When it gets into specific sports he generaly runs them through the rutine lifts mentioned earlier and runs them. All athletes will benifit from that. The coaches get all of the after school practice to build on the other stuff their individual sport needs.

[sfasuljack]

Not building muscle. Building strength, speed, etc... that is needed in every sport.

And I don't care what size they are, I want to help the kids develop their skills and their strength/speed. I'm not an either/or guy. But that's me. If ur a basketball takes precedent guy, their are schools out there for you, if its football, there are schools for you. There also are plenty out there that strike a balance. Bottom line is there is no ideal system that will fit every kid and you cant continually customize ur athletic program to suit every athlete. It sounds good in theory but its just not practical.

So, if ur a coach and don't like where you are, find another job that's a better fit. If ur a parent, you gotta find a community you like with a school system that has the philosophy that you think best fits ur kids needs.

[sfasuljack]

[quote name="speechless" post="955866" timestamp="1296157177"]
so you are saying antonio gates was able to become an all pro TE because of his height?  seriously?

LOL!  he is living proof that football requires largely just athleticism to successful

why do you think terrell owens, randy moss, and tony gonzales could not make an automatic jump to the NBA?

because while they are good athletes they are not skilled enough to do so

and all of them are tall enough too
[/quote]

Forgive my ignorance... Exactly how tall is the avg NBA power forward??? Gates does not have above avg height in basketball (believe he's 65 or 66 off the top of my head). He does in football. That was my point. In general, basketball is a tall man's game more than any other major sport.

But i'm more interested in HS athletes and doing what best for all of them, not just the ones who can earn a scholarship. IMO, developing strength, agility, speed is important to all the sports. The basic lifts develop all those things, especially in the 7th thru 12th grades.

[diggstown]

If the coach in question has a background in kinesiology and stregnth training then he or she should be capable to make workouts to meet the needs of the athletes .  There are some coaches that have ZER0 knowledge of the human body and how it will respond to workouts.  Those coaches do not need to be involved in making and implementing  workouts . And I whole heartedly believe lifting weights will not help a kid hit for better  avg. But it can help hand speed. Get the kid a tee and get to work to improve batting avg. Michael Jordan lifted weights even on game day. I guarantee his weightlifting helped him stay healthy throughout the season.