Nederland vs. Port Neches-Groves Game Thread/Nederland wins/Comments

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="958588" timestamp="1296575632"]
[quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=79456.msg958572#msg958572 date=1296574866]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=79456.msg958558#msg958558 date=1296573663]
I honestly think it's a good debate. The teams are irrelevant to some extent. The debate is more of the situation.

It's good talk.
[/quote]
I agree, it is a good debate, but why the sly remark? What makes U think these teams are irrelevant?  Thay will BOTH make the playoffs this year. How does that make them (or this game) irrelevant??
[/quote]

Gotcha ;-)
My remark was about the subject being discussed. It could have been any team involved. That was my point. As far as the debate is concerned, who the teams are is somewhat irrelevant. The debate about what the coach should have done could have been in any game.
[/quote]

[DogOne]

[quote name="speechless" post="958548" timestamp="1296573117"]
Nederland play what style for 32 minutes?  Hold the ball?  Why?  Nederland is the better team and if the 3 is falling it is not a game because a packed in zone offers lots of open 3 point opportunities and Nederland was not able to convert which is why they pulled it out to make png go man so they could use their superior athleticism to create an easier scoring opportunity.

It is impossible to put a basketball game into black and white statistics and very easy to say after the fact that you disagree with a decision

however, if png gets the defensive rebound goes to OT and wins then png coach is a genius, right?  would you be publicly disagreeing then? 

the png coach who knows his players a heck of a lot better than you do knew that if he came out and extended his defense that his teams chances of stopping nederland significantly decreased so it was really an easy decision
[/quote]

I still don't understand why anyone thinks PN-G had a better chance of beating Nederland in OT (if the game goes to OT, which it didn't) than they did playing out the last 90 seconds of regulation time.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Versey Ledbetter" post="958624" timestamp="1296578058"]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=79456.msg958548#msg958548 date=1296573117]
Nederland play what style for 32 minutes?  Hold the ball?  Why?  Nederland is the better team and if the 3 is falling it is not a game because a packed in zone offers lots of open 3 point opportunities and Nederland was not able to convert which is why they pulled it out to make png go man so they could use their superior athleticism to create an easier scoring opportunity.

It is impossible to put a basketball game into black and white statistics and very easy to say after the fact that you disagree with a decision

however, if png gets the defensive rebound goes to OT and wins then png coach is a genius, right?  would you be publicly disagreeing then? 

the png coach who knows his players a heck of a lot better than you do knew that if he came out and extended his defense that his teams chances of stopping nederland significantly decreased so it was really an easy decision
[/quote]

I still don't understand why anyone thinks PN-G had a better chance of beating Nederland in OT (if the game goes to OT, which it didn't) than they did playing out the last 90 seconds of regulation time.
[/quote]

Could it be that the PNG coach thought that getting to overtime was preferable to doing something that would give Ned the opportunity to keep it from overtime?

[DogOne]

[quote name="stevenash" post="958636" timestamp="1296578698"]
[quote author=Versey Ledbetter link=topic=79456.msg958624#msg958624 date=1296578058]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=79456.msg958548#msg958548 date=1296573117]
Nederland play what style for 32 minutes?  Hold the ball?  Why?  Nederland is the better team and if the 3 is falling it is not a game because a packed in zone offers lots of open 3 point opportunities and Nederland was not able to convert which is why they pulled it out to make png go man so they could use their superior athleticism to create an easier scoring opportunity.

It is impossible to put a basketball game into black and white statistics and very easy to say after the fact that you disagree with a decision

however, if png gets the defensive rebound goes to OT and wins then png coach is a genius, right?  would you be publicly disagreeing then? 

the png coach who knows his players a heck of a lot better than you do knew that if he came out and extended his defense that his teams chances of stopping nederland significantly decreased so it was really an easy decision
[/quote]

I still don't understand why anyone thinks PN-G had a better chance of beating Nederland in OT (if the game goes to OT, which it didn't) than they did playing out the last 90 seconds of regulation time.
[/quote]

Could it be that the PNG coach thought that getting to overtime was preferable to doing something that would give Ned the opportunity to keep it from overtime?
[/quote]

In a sense, they were already in OT.  Why would getting to the "official" OT period be better for PN-G?

[Guest speechless]

because nederland had possession so they put png in a bind by holding it to try and force them to come out and play defense and if png did that nederland would have probably shot a lay up

it is not a difficult concept

[DogOne]

[quote name="speechless" post="958662" timestamp="1296579936"]
because nederland had possession so they put png in a bind by holding it to try and force them to come out and play defense and if png did that nederland would have probably shot a lay up

it is not a difficult concept



[/quote]
Ok.  Let's assume Nederland shoots a lay up with say 60 seconds left in regulation.  Maybe they miss the lay up and PN-G gets the rebound. Now PN-G has the ball with a tie score.  But what if Nederland makes the lay up.  PN-G has the ball down two with 60 seconds to go.  Not the end of the world.  They have one minute to score the tying basket or maybe hit a 3 and go ahead by one.  

I guess PN-G's whole strategy was to [b]hope[/b] Nederland would not score at the buzzer to win the game and then [b]hope[/b] they get the ball first in OT and score and never give up the lead.  Because if Nederland gets the ball first in OT, we're right back where we started from.  Would PN-G sit back the whole first OT period [b]hoping[/b] to go to the second OT?

[Guest speechless]

Since you are into "hoping" I guess you are "hoping" that Nederland missed that lay-up you referred to?  right?

its about what is best for your team and it was not best for png to come out and extend their defense due to the fact it created a higher chance for nederland to score

nederland took a contested 3 from the corner that is a 33% on a good day

it was a sound strategy

a 16 year old didnt block out on the back side and that is your game

sometimes kids do and dont make plays

the outcome of that game had to do with one kid making a play while another didnt

strategy had little to do with the ultimate outcome

[DogOne]

[quote name="speechless" post="958701" timestamp="1296581657"]
Since you are into "hoping" I guess you are "hoping" that Nederland missed that lay-up you referred to?  right?

its about what is best for your team and it was not best for png to come out and extend their defense due to the fact it created a higher chance for nederland to score

nederland took a contested 3 from the corner that is a 33% on a good day

it was a sound strategy

a 16 year old didnt block out on the back side and that is your game

sometimes kids do and dont make plays

the outcome of that game had to do with one kid making a play while another didnt

strategy had little to do with the ultimate outcome
[/quote]

Yes, if I'm PN-G I would hope Nederland misses the lay-up but as I pointed out, even if they make the hypothetical lay-up, with 60 seconds remaining the game is far from over.  But if they make this lay-up at the buzzer, the game is OVER. 

[football]

I always would want the ball in my team's hands at the end of the game.  i don't know if that is right or wrong, just the way I would play it.

[stevenash]

[quote name="football" post="958726" timestamp="1296582925"]
I always would want the ball in my team's hands at the end of the game.  i don't know if that is right or wrong, just the way I would play it.
[/quote]

And may I assume you would want the ball in your hands by gaining possession without fouling the opposition and by forcing them to take a low percentage shot?

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="Versey Ledbetter" post="958624" timestamp="1296578058"]
I still don't understand why anyone thinks PN-G had a better chance of beating Nederland in OT (if the game goes to OT, which it didn't) than they did playing out the last 90 seconds of regulation time.
[/quote]Thank you!!!!  I was wondering if I was merely spitting in the wind.

[Bigdog]

Ok, I asked nicely to move on, but the coach bashing continued.  Locked.

[snooker]

lot has to happen for a big upset ... you have to make the decision before the game ever starts. -- if png is primaraly a half court zone team then i dont see why i would come out for one possession. even if i were just playing not to lose in regulation. if png were a pressure D team then i would have cont. to play the same.  take all those percentages and throw em out. its about having a feel for your team as a coach. -- looks like the best team won from what i can tell(which is usually what happens anyway)

[stevenash]

[quote name="snooker" post="958801" timestamp="1296587949"]
lot has to happen for a big upset ... you have to make the decision before the game ever starts. -- if png is primaraly a half court zone team then i dont see why i would come out for one possession. even if i were just playing not to lose in regulation. if png were a pressure D team then i would have cont. to play the same.  take all those percentages and throw em out. its about having a feel for your team as a coach. -- looks like the best team won from what i can tell(which is usually what happens anyway)
[/quote]

UDAMAN

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="snooker" post="958801" timestamp="1296587949"]
lot has to happen for a big upset ... you have to make the decision before the game ever starts. -- if png is primaraly a half court zone team then i dont see why i would come out for one possession. even if i were just playing not to lose in regulation. if png were a pressure D team then i would have cont. to play the same.  take all those percentages and throw em out. its about having a feel for your team as a coach. -- looks like the best team won from what i can tell(which is usually what happens anyway)
[/quote]That's good to say, but ask any coach that you know whether they ever look at percentages or chances of success during a game. 

For instance, towards the end of the game, if a team is ahead by 1 or 2 points and they are at the free throw line with 2 seconds left -  What does the coach do?  He takes his players away from the free throw line.  Why?  Because he knows that [b]there is a chance[/b] his players can foul and give the other team free throws.  You see what I mean?

Percentages, baby!  Percentages!

A coach that "takes all those percentages and throws them out" is a coach with a short tenure.  They don't have to "go by the odds" at all times.  No, they still have their instincts as you mentioned,  but they should always weigh those odds.

[Guest speechless]

and odds were nederland scores easily if png comes out those were the only odds png coach needed to be concerned with

[baddog]

PNG didn't lose this game on the last play, they lost it when they let Nederland back in the game. Wake up people. Instead of dissing your coach for the loss, try patting the Dogs on the head for a great comeback win. Thank you.

[Guest Two-Dogs...]

[quote name="baddog" post="958950" timestamp="1296596180"]
PNG didn't lose this game on the last play, they lost it when they let Nederland back in the game. Wake up people. Instead of dissing your coach for the loss, try patting the Dogs on the head for a great comeback win. Thank you.
[/quote]

True. We had a 7 point lead early in the fourth quarter and we let Ned push the tempo of the game. We had controlled that Tempo up to that point and that is why we were ahead. A short minute and a half or two minutes some time early to mid fourth quarter is what actually cost us the W. We also lost it at the free throw line. ;)

[snooker]

for fanin stands --- if you had a 75% ft shooter who had  went 1-7 from the line and a 65% ft shooter who was 7-8 from the line and you had to shoot a tech . foul -- which one shoots that night?

[stevenash]

[quote name="snooker" post="960487" timestamp="1296744207"]
for fanin stands --- if you had a 75% ft shooter who had  went 1-7 from the line and a 65% ft shooter who was 7-8 from the line and you had to shoot a tech . foul -- which one shoots that night?
[/quote]

Good question with reasonable scenario.

I get the distinct impression that you are suggesting that statistics don't always tell the whole story and perhaps sometimes a judgement call is necessary?

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="snooker" post="960487" timestamp="1296744207"]
for fanin stands --- if you had a 75% ft shooter who had  went 1-7 from the line and a 65% ft shooter who was 7-8 from the line and you had to shoot a tech . foul -- which one shoots that night?
[/quote]Of course whatever answer would be questioned, but I'd go with the kid with the hot hand.  Why do you ask?

[GrayDog]

The hot hand...

Also, if you play the entire game to get the last shot to win... why give away the last shot?

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="stevenash" post="960494" timestamp="1296744520"]
[quote author=snooker link=topic=79456.msg960487#msg960487 date=1296744207]
for fanin stands --- if you had a 75% ft shooter who had  went 1-7 from the line and a 65% ft shooter who was 7-8 from the line and you had to shoot a tech . foul -- which one shoots that night?
[/quote]

Good question with reasonable scenario.

I get the distinct impression that you are suggesting that statistics don't always tell the whole story and perhaps sometimes a judgement call is necessary?
[/quote]That's true, but no one has convinced me that PNG was better off going into overtime, than trying to win in regulation.

Everyone has said that more possessions gives the advantage to Nederland since they are the better team.

So that would mean the percentages and judgment both agree that PNG shouldn't have let the stall go on.

[Razor]

Let.....it.......go!!!!!

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="Razor" post="960729" timestamp="1296763841"]
Let.....it.......go!!!!!
[/quote]Just what are you trying to say?  ;)