Pitch count for High School

[JS]

This is a tough topic. Most parents do not want to get between a coach and a kid. The coach wants to win. The kid has dreamed of playing for his home town since he has very young and realized that he could pitch pretty well. But------------------the parent is still the parent and if you have to ruffle some feathers then try to do it discreetly. Most coaches are reasonable people and will listen to your concerns and try to address them. I do not have an answer for those that won't----and that is the problem.

[SKINS]

[quote name="Diamond-J" post="990940" timestamp="1301575680"]
This is a tough topic. Most parents do not want to get between a coach and a kid. The coach wants to win. The kid has dreamed of playing for his home town since he has very young and realized that he could pitch pretty well. But------------------the parent is still the parent and if you have to ruffle some feathers then try to do it discreetly. Most coaches are reasonable people and will listen to your concerns and try to address them. I do not have an answer for those that won't----and that is the problem.
[/quote]
Try going to the AD

[JS]

It is a rare AD that does not back his coach 100%.

[SKINS]

[quote name="Diamond-J" post="990943" timestamp="1301576093"]
It is a rare AD that does not back his coach 100%.
[/quote]
True, but I don't see an AD not making sure one of his student athletes is going to stay healthy if a parent brings up a ligitimate issue.

[JS]

I agree and we have a good one in our district. This is just a tough one for most folks to handle.

[hitman009]

100 pitches is not a lot if the kid has proper form and is in shape.....when they get to 120 then the red light needs to come on in a coach’s mind........ THE KEY THING IS REST AFTER.....
There are things a kid can do to prevent injury... ice and run.... these will get the acidity out of his muscle that causes damage...

As for College, what do you think a college pitcher does.... he pitches every day... even if his arm is hurting.  30-60 pitches even after he has pitched the night before... It builds arm strength
I have heard someone mention the pros watching when pitchers reach 100.... yes they do but it has to do more with being ineffective against the best hitters more than arm worries....

Now, after everything I have read I have not seen one person bring up the REAL problem why young pitchers are getting hurt or having arm problems… It has nothing to do with the coach… Some of you may not want to hear it…… But here it is……  YEAR ROUND SELECT BASEBALL!!!  Kids pitch year round and the arm needs to rest… They are throwing breaking balls, sliders, split fingers.. etc… before their arms have developed…  I have spoken to numerous of doctors and they said they love year round baseball because their Tommy John surgery has increased by 1500% since year round select baseball was invented.  Instead of doing one a week, they are doing about 12-15..  Some doctors have given up their  practice and just started doing this surgery alone…Some kids have had 2-3 surgeries before the even reach high school…

If you want to blame the coaches for your sons arm problem go right ahead…. But the real problem is the parents for enrolling their child in year round baseball…

[juskillenit89]

[quote name="hitman009" post="990972" timestamp="1301579694"]
100 pitches is not a lot if the kid has proper form and is in shape.....when they get to 120 then the red light needs to come on in a coach’s mind........ THE KEY THING IS REST AFTER.....
There are things a kid can do to prevent injury... ice and run.... these will get the acidity out of his muscle that causes damage...

[size=14pt]As for College, what do you think a college pitcher does.... he pitches every day... even if his arm is hurting.  30-60 pitches even after he has pitched the night before... It builds arm strength[/size]I have heard someone mention the pros watching when pitchers reach 100.... yes they do but it has to do more with being ineffective against the best hitters more than arm worries....

Now, after everything I have read I have not seen one person bring up the REAL problem why young pitchers are getting hurt or having arm problems… It has nothing to do with the coach… Some of you may not want to hear it…… But here it is……   YEAR ROUND SELECT BASEBALL!!!  Kids pitch year round and the arm needs to rest… They are throwing breaking balls, sliders, split fingers.. etc… before their arms have developed…  I have spoken to numerous of doctors and they said they love year round baseball because their Tommy John surgery has increased by 1500% since year round select baseball was invented.  Instead of doing one a week, they are doing about 12-15..  Some doctors have given up their  practice and just started doing this surgery alone…Some kids have had 2-3 surgeries before the even reach high school…

If you want to blame the coaches for your sons arm problem go right ahead…. But the real problem is the parents for enrolling their child in year round baseball…

[/quote]
Not sure where you pitched in college, but when I did no coach ever promoted throwing everyday, and certainly did not have us throw when our arm was hurting. 

Are you sure it's 120 pitches? earlier you said it was 110 pitches?  I think it is all relative to a variety of situations and should never be taken lightly!!!!

As for select, thats why you dont sign your kid up for select and allow the same thing to happen there, you evaluate the coaches and the way they handle your child in his best interest.  There is nothing wrong with playing select, tournament or off season baseball as long as you are doing what is in the best interest of your child.  Health first, I would be willing to bet that more kids are having surgeries due to bad technique and yes parents allowing their own kids to throw pitches that their bodies have not developed enough to throw yet. 

[hitman009]

[quote name="juskillenit89" post="990980" timestamp="1301580754"]
[quote author=hitman009 link=topic=82460.msg990972#msg990972 date=1301579694]
100 pitches is not a lot if the kid has proper form and is in shape.....when they get to 120 then the red light needs to come on in a coach’s mind........ THE KEY THING IS REST AFTER.....
There are things a kid can do to prevent injury... ice and run.... these will get the acidity out of his muscle that causes damage...

[size=14pt]As for College, what do you think a college pitcher does.... he pitches every day... even if his arm is hurting.  30-60 pitches even after he has pitched the night before... It builds arm strength[/size]I have heard someone mention the pros watching when pitchers reach 100.... yes they do but it has to do more with being ineffective against the best hitters more than arm worries....

Now, after everything I have read I have not seen one person bring up the REAL problem why young pitchers are getting hurt or having arm problems… It has nothing to do with the coach… Some of you may not want to hear it…… But here it is……   YEAR ROUND SELECT BASEBALL!!!  Kids pitch year round and the arm needs to rest… They are throwing breaking balls, sliders, split fingers.. etc… before their arms have developed…  I have spoken to numerous of doctors and they said they love year round baseball because their Tommy John surgery has increased by 1500% since year round select baseball was invented.  Instead of doing one a week, they are doing about 12-15..  Some doctors have given up their  practice and just started doing this surgery alone…Some kids have had 2-3 surgeries before the even reach high school…

If you want to blame the coaches for your sons arm problem go right ahead…. But the real problem is the parents for enrolling their child in year round baseball…

[/quote]
Not sure where you pitched in college, but when I did no coach ever promoted throwing everyday, and certainly did not have us throw when our arm was hurting.  

Are you sure it's 120 pitches? earlier you said it was 110 pitches?  I think it is all relative to a variety of situations and should never be taken lightly!!!!

As for select, thats why you dont sign your kid up for select and allow the same thing to happen there, you evaluate the coaches and the way they handle your child in his best interest.  There is nothing wrong with playing select, tournament or off season baseball as long as you are doing what is in the best interest of your child.  Health first, I would be willing to bet that more kids are having surgeries due to bad technique and yes parents allowing their own kids to throw pitches that their bodies have not developed enough to throw yet.  
[/quote]I said a coach needs to be aware when they hit 100-110.  In my mind a coach need to pull him when he reaches 120. and it also depends on the kid when to pull him...
and go watch a Lamar practice and see how much a pitcher throws... it may not be from the mound, but one knee down against a hanging mat with spots on it they do throw againt almost every day if they are not pitching that day..

[JS]

[quote name="hitman009" post="990984" timestamp="1301581197"]
[quote author=juskillenit89 link=topic=82460.msg990980#msg990980 date=1301580754]
[quote author=hitman009 link=topic=82460.msg990972#msg990972 date=1301579694]
100 pitches is not a lot if the kid has proper form and is in shape.....when they get to 120 then the red light needs to come on in a coach’s mind........ THE KEY THING IS REST AFTER.....
There are things a kid can do to prevent injury... ice and run.... these will get the acidity out of his muscle that causes damage...

[size=14pt]As for College, what do you think a college pitcher does.... he pitches every day... even if his arm is hurting.  30-60 pitches even after he has pitched the night before... It builds arm strength[/size]I have heard someone mention the pros watching when pitchers reach 100.... yes they do but it has to do more with being ineffective against the best hitters more than arm worries....

Now, after everything I have read I have not seen one person bring up the REAL problem why young pitchers are getting hurt or having arm problems… It has nothing to do with the coach… Some of you may not want to hear it…… But here it is……   YEAR ROUND SELECT BASEBALL!!!  Kids pitch year round and the arm needs to rest… They are throwing breaking balls, sliders, split fingers.. etc… before their arms have developed…  I have spoken to numerous of doctors and they said they love year round baseball because their Tommy John surgery has increased by 1500% since year round select baseball was invented.  Instead of doing one a week, they are doing about 12-15..  Some doctors have given up their  practice and just started doing this surgery alone…Some kids have had 2-3 surgeries before the even reach high school…

If you want to blame the coaches for your sons arm problem go right ahead…. But the real problem is the parents for enrolling their child in year round baseball…

[/quote]
Not sure where you pitched in college, but when I did no coach ever promoted throwing everyday, and certainly did not have us throw when our arm was hurting.  

Are you sure it's 120 pitches? earlier you said it was 110 pitches?  I think it is all relative to a variety of situations and should never be taken lightly!!!!

As for select, thats why you dont sign your kid up for select and allow the same thing to happen there, you evaluate the coaches and the way they handle your child in his best interest.  There is nothing wrong with playing select, tournament or off season baseball as long as you are doing what is in the best interest of your child.  Health first, I would be willing to bet that more kids are having surgeries due to bad technique and yes parents allowing their own kids to throw pitches that their bodies have not developed enough to throw yet.  
[/quote]I said a coach needs to be aware when they hit 100-110.  In my mind a coach need to pull him when he reaches 120. and it also depends on the kid when to pull him...
and go watch a Lamar practice and see how much a pitcher throws... it may not be from the mound, but one knee down against a hanging mat with spots on it they do throw againt almost every day if they are not pitching that day..
[/quote]I do not blame our high school coaches and I sure don't blame select ball--at least not in our case. Frank played for Kyle Chapman and was limited to 4 innings per week. Once while throwing a perfect game he asked to stay in and was told no. I guess it just depends on who your kid plays for. I also did not let him throw a real curve until he was 15. Until then only cut fastballs and old fashioned palm-balls along with the fastball. Injuries happen and we can piss and moan about it or work hard and get back on the horse. All I am saying is that sometimes folks worry more about winning than anything else-AND THIS CAN HAPPEN AT ANY LEVEL. And when it does it puts the kid, the parent, and the coach in a bad spot.

[callumlikeiseeum]

All kids on the team are to treated exactly the same.

But when it comes to making pitch count decisions, and rest between outings decisions, they are not to be treated the same.

If they are never going to play again, and the coach knows this, he can be a little more lax in the decision making process on how much and when.

If the kid is going to pitch or play in college the rules tighten.

If the kid is even a maybe on getting drafted his rules should be rigid.

Develop 6 or 8 pitchers so you dont have to rely on one guy.

I know one high school team in this area that has gone years at a time without having a pitcher go over 100 pitches.

So it can be done.

[callumlikeiseeum]

If I remember right, your son was from Dayton.  The same team where one young man was nicknamed by this message board as "double duty."  I think I can safely say he was the most used pitcher in the short history of the website. 

[hitman009]

this is a site I found for the parents and coaches that are worried about their kids arm... Although it does not say anything about High School Pitch counts, I does have good information and advice about young pitchers and health..
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/usabaseball.htm

[SKINS]

[quote name="hitman009" post="991013" timestamp="1301583668"]
this is a site I found for the parents and coaches that are worried about their kids arm... Although it does not say anything about High School Pitch counts, I does have good information and advice about young pitchers and health..
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/usabaseball.htm
[/quote]
Good stuff

[BaseballWarrior]

hitman is right about the Lamar practice. Pitchers do their running and do tarp work the day after they pitch. However, there is very very little effort in the throwing and its focus is mechanics and feel. Is there soreness, yeah, but if there is "hurt" the player needs to speak up. However, There is a difference in the average collegiate pitcher and average high school pitcher. The collegiate "should" have better mechanics, more developed strength/stamina, and more maturity. They also get to have "Baseball only" coaches,year-round, who have a closer relationship to the athlete, and put them through off-season workouts, drill, and practices. You can't really expect the average high school pitcher to be as developed and there does need to be a few more restrictions.

I still believe though, that there isn't a definitive number to go by. Yes, if they are above 100, there needs to be a watchful eye and have relief ready. As I said earlier, the coach needs to know their pitcher and recognize if they are getting tired and be ready to make a change. Whether it's before or after 100

[2throwrundown]

[quote name="hitman009" post="990972" timestamp="1301579694"]
100 pitches is not a lot if the kid has proper form and is in shape.....when they get to 120 then the red light needs to come on in a coach’s mind........ THE KEY THING IS REST AFTER  [b]And during[/b]There are things a kid can do to prevent injury... ice and run.... these will get the acidity out of his muscle that causes damage...
[/quote]

Rest after and During.  Again its not necessiarily the over all total number of pitches thrown during the game.  Examine how the pitcher gets to that number.
Pitcher A                                              Pitcher B
1. 16                                                   1. 30
2. 17                                                   2. 28
3. 20                                                   3. 32
4. 15                                                   4. Pulled from game
5. 16
6. 15
7. 16

pitcher A throws a total of 115 pitches, a high volume yes.  Pitcher B is pulled before he reaches 100.  Pitcher B is working much longer innings and probably getting shorter rest between half innings.  Less focus should be put on the final product of a pitch count and more on how a player arrives at that total.  If your team is not spending alot of time hitting each inning then your pitcher is getting less down time and is going to tire faster.

[BaseballWarrior]

[quote name="CrashDavis" post="991023" timestamp="1301584552"]
[quote author=hitman009 link=topic=82460.msg990972#msg990972 date=1301579694]
100 pitches is not a lot if the kid has proper form and is in shape.....when they get to 120 then the red light needs to come on in a coach’s mind........ THE KEY THING IS REST AFTER  [b]And during[/b]There are things a kid can do to prevent injury... ice and run.... these will get the acidity out of his muscle that causes damage...
[/quote]

Rest after and During.  Again its not necessiarily the over all total number of pitches thrown during the game.  Examine how the pitcher gets to that number.
Pitcher A                                              Pitcher B
1. 16                                                   1. 30
2. 17                                                   2. 28
3. 20                                                   3. 32
4. 15                                                   4. Pulled from game
5. 16
6. 15
7. 16

pitcher A throws a total of 115 pitches, a high volume yes.  Pitcher B is pulled before he reaches 100.  Pitcher B is working much longer innings and probably getting shorter rest between half innings.  Less focus should be put on the final product of a pitch count and more on how a player arrives at that total.  If your team is not spending alot of time hitting each inning then your pitcher is getting less down time and is going to tire faster.
[/quote]

good points

[rounder17]

Yes a 100 pitches is a lot for a KID.  No a college pitcher does not pitch everyday, especially if his arm is hurting.  No they do not throw 30-60 pitches the day after they pitch. Pitching everyday does not build arm strength. Pitchers long toss the day after, because this helps break fluid up and helps to get rid of soreness.  Pros do keep track of pitching for arm worries, not because he is not being effective. If a guy is not effective, he probably won't see 100 pitches in a game anyhow.  Since you say select ball is what hurts players, hopefully no select coaches read your post about what pitchers are supposed to do. Professional pitchers routine goes like this.  Day 1 Pitch..Day 2 Long toss..Day 3 Long toss, maybe a couple of drills. Day 4 20-30 pitch bull pen...Day 5 long toss. Day 6 Pitch. Parents please dont get the wrond idea, and let your kids PITCH everyday.

[True Blue]

JMO but if you work with a kid on locating his pitches, and not try and throw as many breaking balls. His pitch count wont become a prob. Just look a how long Maddoux, and Glaven lasted. And how many complete games the finished. In most high school teams there will only be 3 or 4 batters that you realy have to deal with. If you can locate you pitches you get by most 6,7,8,9 hitters.

[pinelandflash]

This is ust my opinion but the kids should learn a change-up than a slider or the sharp curve ball. The tendons in the wrist weren't built to move in that direction constantly, and the change-up has roughly the same grip as a two seam fastball. Mechanics and conditioning also play a huge role for pitchers. There are also some drills that are specifically for pitchers.There are some that generate their power in the upper body while others drive through with their lower half. More coaches should keep an accurate pitch count, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. There's a huge difference when its say 12-0 in the 3rd than 7-6 in the bottom of the 7th. The effort behind the pitch and the stress said pitch was made under also plays a role.