Should Jimmer F. be POY ????

[Guest speechless]

And Jimmer played against mid-majors?  Really??

Kemba plays much better defense...perfect example of what I was talking about.

[stevenash]

[quote name="speechless" post="994269" timestamp="1302194383"]
And Jimmer played against mid-majors?  Really??

Kemba plays much better defense...perfect example of what I was talking about.
[/quote]

Speechless- you need to understand that symbolism (in the minds of some)trumps substance.  If it sounds good, say it-to heck with the truth

[ForeverADog]

[quote name="stevenash" post="994252" timestamp="1302192048"]
[quote author=ForeverADog link=topic=82636.msg994246#msg994246 date=1302191407]
1. Kemba plays much better defense.
2. Kemba played against the best teams in the country.
3. Jimmer played against mid-majors.
4. Kemba played the biggest in the biggest games. 14-0 in tournament games!
[/quote]

The only factual statement you made (#4) pertains to the team as opposed to Mr. Walker.
AS for #2 - Included in your claim is American International, Bridgeport, Stony Brook, Vermont,, New Hampshire, Fairleigh Dickinson, Coppin State, and  Harvard.
[/quote]

[quote author=stevenash link=topic=82636.msg994276#msg994276 date=1302195451]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=82636.msg994269#msg994269 date=1302194383]
And Jimmer played against mid-majors?  Really??

Kemba plays much better defense...perfect example of what I was talking about.
[/quote]

Speechless- you need to understand that symbolism (in the minds of some)trumps substance.  If it sounds good, say it-to heck with the truth
[/quote]

All of those are true! Kemba played better defense against better teams than Jimmer. Even his numbers are better! More steals and more rebounds per game! Kemba 5.4 rpg to Jimmer at 3.4. and Kemba 1.9spg to Jimmer 1.3. Plus he isnt playing against mid-majors.

Jimmer has played:
Chicago State
Miss Valley State
Vermont
Fresno State
Hawaii
Weber State
Buffalo
Some D2 school
Air Force twice
Utah twice
TCU twice
Wyoming twice

All of those are mid major schools! 16 games. Half of their wins.

While Kemba played, out of conference:
Michigan State
Texas
Kentucky
Tennessee

And in conference:
Louisville twice
Notre Dame twice
Marquette twice
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Georgetown
St. Johns
Cincinnati
West Virginia
Villanova

Much tougher schedule.

That isn't symbolism as you put it. Those are facts that back up the substance of my post to help prove my point. Kemba is the better player.

[stevenash]

If you look at ALL of the stats ( instead of cherry picking) Walker is no better than Ferdette.  Saying Kemba plays "better defense" is like me saying Phil Mickelson "swings the club better" than Tiger Woods.

[BLUEDOVE3]

Just read about a mock NBA draft. Jimmer is picked b4 Kemba.

[ForeverADog]

No I'm showing you why Jimmer has better stats. Playing lesser competition.

[stevenash]

[quote name="ForeverADog" post="994341" timestamp="1302203184"]
No I'm showing you why Jimmer has better stats. Playing lesser competition.
[/quote]

I don't agree with your assessment.  If you were looking at the schedules of two teams and one of them had played North Carolina and Duke while the other had played VCU and Butler, you know very well who you would say was the tougher competition and it simply isnt factual.  Furthermore, I would be willing to bet you that Jimmer faced a lot more double and triple teams and other junk defenses than Kemba did.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="994331" timestamp="1302202424"]
Just read about a mock NBA draft. Jimmer is picked b4 Kemba.
[/quote]
Sam Bowie was drafted ahead of Michael Jordan.

[JohnnyT60]

Isn't it really about the defenses they faced, not the teams??

[stevenash]

[quote name="JohnnyT60" post="994380" timestamp="1302207858"]
Isn't it really about the defenses they faced, not the teams??
[/quote]

A G R E E

[CThoops]

[quote name="JohnnyT60" post="994380" timestamp="1302207858"]
Isn't it really about the defenses they faced, not the teams??
[/quote]

What about the the top name schools who get bigger and faster players? They can run a man-to-man defense better than smaller schools, or zone defenses with more steals, or box and ones better with more athletic players? Im sure they both faced the same defenses, but which player had to play against overall more gifted players using these defenses more often? If that all makes sense in a way ;D

[JohnnyT60]

What about having a better supporting cast?

[CThoops]

[quote name="JohnnyT60" post="994412" timestamp="1302212360"]
What about having a better supporting cast?
[/quote]

1)More assist and less you have to do to win, yet he was still the guy on offense
2) More wins against top teams: he got his ring

I honestly dont care which one of them one ;) Both were better than anybody else, and did way more for their teams. I do think both should get an award for best player in the country

[whsalum]

[quote name="speechless" post="994236" timestamp="1302190897"]
I can't stand when people get on here and spew generalities about a player and how many shots or whatever they took....so here are facts for you guys:

                        Jimmer Fredette     Kemba Walker

Minutes:                   35.8                     37.6
Points PG:                 28.9                    23.5
FGMade/G:                9.4                      7.7
FGAtt/G:                   20.7                    18.0
FG%/G:                    45.7                    42.8
2pt made/G:             6.0                      5.6
2pt att/G:                 12.2                    12.5
2pt %/G:                  49.1                    47.1
3pt made/G:             3.4                      1.8
3pt att/G:                 8.5                      5.5
3pt %/G:                 39.6                     33.0
FT made/G:              6.8                      6.3
FT att/G:                 7.6                       7.7
FT %/G:                  89.4                     81.9
Reb/G:                    3.4                       5.4
Ast/G:                     4.3                       4.5
Steal/G:                  1.3                       1.9
Turover/G:              3.5                       2.3                 
[/quote]Now thats what I'm talking about.These stats are impressive on both sides.I haven't researched the tourney stats but Jimmer was impressive when he got to the big dance.I would take him any day on my club.At least this topic livened up the board so mission accomplished.

[JohnnyT60]

Both great players, but very different.

[Aces_Full]

NBA draft net has Kemba being selected before Jimmer but it is close.  I think the smart money says Kemba projects as a better pro than Jimmer because he is much quicker and faster, and can play the 1.  As far as who was deserving of NCAA POY, well I don't think you can go wrong with either one.  Although, Kemba did play against much better competition, and Jimmer was allergic to defense.  I would take Kemba. 

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="dogs1218" post="994409" timestamp="1302211845"]
[quote author=JohnnyT60 link=topic=82636.msg994380#msg994380 date=1302207858]
Isn't it really about the defenses they faced, not the teams??
[/quote]

What about the the top name schools who get bigger and faster players? They can run a man-to-man defense better than smaller schools, or zone defenses with more steals, or box and ones better with more athletic players? Im sure they both faced the same defenses, but which player had to play against overall more gifted players using these defenses more often? If that all makes sense in a way ;D

[/quote]Excellent points you brought up.

[east texas bb]

Jimmer may have faced a slight edge in the fact that not as many high profile schools played against him or guarded him, even though some did and he had 50 on the. But if I recall, two of the teams that we are calling low profile teams made it to the Final Four.  And lets not forget that Jimmer was paid a little more attention to than Kemba, Im not saying that teams didnt guard Kemba, but they knew he couldnt shoot the 3 well.  The philosophy of everyteam that BYU played was to stop Jimmer.

[JohnnyT60]

I'll put it this way, I am sure defenses payed more attention to Kemba's teamates than Jimmer's. I believe that their balances to the pros & cons on both sides, but I think they got the right one, and his team won't be on probation next year. Not that Kemba was involved in any of that, but it may have swayed the voters.