IS Select Baseball "WORTH" The investment?

[GTBBaseball]

Id like to create a forum on what parents, coaches, outsiders, players, etc... to get their insight on the "pro's and con's" of select baseball.
I have written some articles and will later post them, but would like to read and learn more insight from others "outside or within" the circle.

There is a "HUGE" difference in Select Baseball between the younger ages, 8-12, up to 14, compared to that of 16-18yr olds, so there will be a different perspective Id imagine from many on this topic. Please state with your insight, what level of play you are basically referring to.

Different areas that I can see worth discussing...
The decline of importance of "Team" first which directly effects high school baseball programs
The "select teams" not incorporating the high school coach with decision making of 'his' high school players playing select ball(pitch counts, positions to develop their player for the following season, not including the high school coach in the recruiting process with scouts-coaches...
The "self-entitlement" players-parents seem to adhere to as each season of select comes and goes
The "lack of knowledge and discipline" taught to the "select player" OR the advanced nature of development some programs provide.
The "over use of pitchers" or overuse of catchers
The "Select Schedule" format, whereby teams play 4,5, and at times 6 games in 2 or 3 days.
The format-foundation with all quality prospect teams at one site, to make it easier for college recruiters to see many players perform at one site in a 3-4 day span...
The quality of competition these players get to be challenged, exposed to each weekend
The umpires who call 3,4, and as we have experienced, 6 games in one day back to back to back, creating complacency, not being in proper position on the field and subpar knowledge of the rules
The 3 minutes in between innings where pitchers warm up and fielders take warm up ground balls in an hour a 40minute time limit game, leading to a total of 4inning baseball games, and 24-30 or more minutes waisted watching teams get out on the field after the 3rd out...
The format where 11 or 12 kids get to bat reducing the startegic part of the "game within the game" taught and developed by coaches and players.
The expenses of select tournament fees, hotel fees, drinks, gate fees,
The price and fees needed to attend player "Showcases"(example Perfect Game" has increased its showcase charges to $599 in 2011)

and many more issues and concerns I'll address later....

Thanks in advance,

Chris Fackler

[adminbaberuth]

Coach,

Good topic, will get back later. Might not be able to contribute on the select side but could share 20 years of kids coming through our league before select and post select.

[bkindtooneanother]

My son has played select baseball since he was 9 years old and he is graduating this year.  Select baseball was a wonderful experience for my son and our family.  I can't comment about too many of the questions above because I let my husband handle most of those issues.  But speaking from a Mom's point of view the two biggest issues for me were "money" and "family time". 

Select ball can be very expensive.  There were times when many teams would pick up the tab but not always.  Hotel, food, and gas for the entire family was not easy.  There were also times when my son wanted a new bat or glove but we had to buy prom dress or dance recital costumes for his sisters.  I guess we could have made it happen but I wanted him to know that there were other needs and wants in the family besides his.

Family time can be an issue.  My son is the youngest of three.  There were times when I had to make him miss a game during a tournament to attend one of his sister's functions.  There were even times when I made his miss a morning game on Sunday to attend Mass.  No he wasn't happy and yes I knew how important it was for the players to be at every game.  I hated that he had to sit the bench for a couple of innings when he returned but these things are important and shouldn't be over looked. It made him a better player in the end and taught him accountability.

Looking back I would not have changed a thing.  Select baseball can be a wonderful experience but you must remember to stay grounded.  It is a great opportunity to travel and compete and play with the best. He made some great friends and played for some of the best coaches around.   

[Guest Brubaker]

Mr. Fackler, great topic.  I have an additional question to throw in there.  Would guys like Weber, Sanchez, Aven, Patterson, Cammack... have been any better baseball players had they played select baseball?  It's an intriguing question to me.  They were some of the best to come out of the area, not all encompassing, but a pretty solid list.  These guys were not playing select baseball at age 6/7 like some of these kids.... but they turned out pretty good.  Have we turned out more Weber's, Sanchez's, Cammacks, since select went boom?

Just my opinion, but baseball is about honing a skill at an individual level... of course a little ability goes a long way, like an arm that throws a 92 mph fastball, but in the end, more than any sport, baseball is about HONING skill.  If I took Ichiro Suzuki and fed tee work, front toss, and threw him BP, and let him play little league and othe local leagues... would he turn into the same hitter.  Maybe you could argue he would turn into a better hitter focussing all that time on HONING his skill.  The flipside is you need to see that nasty curve/slider, the best hardest throwing pitcher out there.  But in reality, great pitching gets out great hitting most every time, so what's the point. I could talk on this for hours, but wanted to throw some thoughts out there.  I guess my thoughts would be that there's nothing wrong with select ball if it's done right and the kids enjoy it... but the Sanchez's, Cammacks, Aven's, Patterson's...etc make it hard for me to think that select CREATES elite ball players.  Could be that the sign of the times would dictate that today's players play in this type of format, but I just don't think that they MAKE the player.  Just my opinion, but if Cammack didn't want to travel and would rather spend those weekends as a kid fishing and huntin while just playing regular old little league... my money is he woulda still made it to the show.

[Guest Brubaker]

One additional comment if I may.  When select started, at least it appeared to me, that the coaching/instruction was some of the best that money could buy.  With the exception of a few, Select was more along the lines of the baseball factories like the GTB, Sundevils, Banditos...etc, my apologies if anyone disagrees with the level of instruction/coaching from anyone of these organizations.  No offense to anyone, but now I see well meaning dads running select teams who have limited knowledge of the fundamentals of the game.  Skills in baseball are some of the most difficult to teach.  Most great players and instructors make it very simple to understand, but the fact of the matter is that hitting and pitching are extremely skilled athletic movements.  This is tough to explain without really being critical of people maybe unecessarily, so I'll stop now.  But my thoughts are that some of the issues you see in Select, is because you've got some unqualified running the show in more and more situations.  This may explain a variety of the issues you listed in the original post.

[Rake1]

Oh man I tried like heck to stay away from this thread but I just couldn't so here goes......

Select baseball is just like any other sport including local league or recreational ball in more than one way. The "entitlement" that you speak of happens at the local level too, sometimes even more than select. Little Jimmy is the best player on a team and is allowed to basically run his little league team since no coach wants to upset the apple cart and sit him out. Same little jimmy on a select team where the level of player around him is equal makes it easier to discipline him, in most cases. Now rather than focus on the negative I would rather look at the positive side of select, especially when done properly. For nearly 10 years we have been involved in select baseball and it has been an absolutely wonderful experience. We always set our teams up on the basis of 3 parts. First part was we wanted good kids who wanted to play at a higher level than what they were getting in local leagues. Second part was we wanted good parents who brought no "baggage" with them, the more open and objective the better. After watching these teams that were full of mercenaries bicker among themselves about who hit 3rd and played short stop it was clear that was not the direction we wanted to go. And last but not least we wanted to play competitive baseball that would challenge the kids and hopefully make them better. This recipe has worked well for us for many years and looking back I wouldn't change a thing. I would rather have a good group of A- or B+ talent level kids that wanted to work and had good parents than a team full of "ME" guys any day.
A well run organization that puts realistic goals, expectations, and rules to good use is hard to beat. We took great steps to consult with trainers, coaches and doctors about subjects like pitch counts and arm care. We instituted a very conservative pitch count rule for our staff and followed it closely. Our thought was we would rather a kid look like a stud when he was 17-18 so we wouldn't jeopardize their health at 11 or 12. Yes, a ton of guys made it to college and beyond playing nothing more than summer recreational league baseball, a point that can't be denied. Yes a ton of parents believe that if little Jimmy goes 4-4 in a coach pitch game he is now a "PROSPECT". Again all this goes back to realistic expectations, some have them some don't.  For us it was about competeing, seeing just exactly how good you really were against some other players  who were at the top level of their age group. One other aspect that we promoted with our kids was down time, an opportunity to enjoy other things. We rarely if ever played fall ball since most of our guys hunt and fish as well as play football. A well rounded young man is another joy to behold. A young man who doesn't get an opportunity to be a kid and do fun stuff every now and again will often times grow tired of the repetition and grow to dislike a sport they once never dreamed they could dislike. Whatever you do don't make it a job.

Chuck Uzzle
Proud member/Coach/Manager of:
Mavericks/Southeast Texas Tigers/Dirty Dozen/Johnny's Drakes/Gulf Coast Baseball/Louisiana Blueclaws  

[TradinUp BH]

The new fad that I've observed lately is lilltle leagues creating teams comprising kids from one league. The idea is to have the kids gel before all-stars and gives them a head start on practices. The only problem that I see with the younger kids 12 and under group is if kids are playing a 16 game little league schedule and then playing another 20 to 30 game select schedule is eventually the kids will get burned out. I don't think it's in the best interest of the kids that pitch either. It's hard for me to believe that these young kids aren't going to have some type of arm problems after throwing over 150 pitches in a five day period. Here's an example, top pitcher on a little league team and he is placed on a select team. He pitches 75 pitches Friday night for little league and then another 75 pitches during the weekend select tournament. This kid will probably pitch towards the end of that next week putting him around 220 pitches in a 7 day period. I think there should be some type of rule that if a select team under 12 years old plays one weekend that they aren't allowed to play until the third weekend. That gives select teams two weekends to play per month. That may not be the answer, but something along those lines. We've been involved in select for a while at the younger age and I'm kind os scratchiing my head why we've spent the money we have so far. Select is so watered down now, that depending on what tournament and teams that are playing, it's not that much more then little league IMO.

[BaseBow]

Select at the ages of 16-17-18 is more about the exposure..My Son did not start select till the age of 12&13..When select meant the most to us as a family was when Trevin was 16-17-18..And  he got all the right exposure.I think if he would have not done select he would have been fine,but he would not have been seen by most of the big schools..But back to the orginal question..we always supported our comunity LITTLE LEAGUE,BABE RUTH  ETC.We were commited to the community 1st ...But when a kid reaches a certain age it is time for daddy to let go and let the Sun devils ,G.T.B ETC. TO TAKE OVER...My opinion only..And I agree with Bru ...some of these dads need to get some help from somebody on these select teams..Nice post Chris keep up the good work.....Bubba Sonnier

[adminbaberuth]

We have 79 schools that Setexsports covers. With 9 positions to fill, that's 711 jobs open every year in our area. Most coaches will fill those postions with the best players. I would guess that most coaches don't care if they are on the Sundevils, GTB, Gladiators or Babe Ruth. They want them playing playing baseball and getting better.

If a kid can't get better in this area with tools available to him, Sundevils, GTB, Gladiators or Babe Ruth his competitor who uses these outlits will pass him.

6% of high school baseball players play at the College Level. With 711 players, that's 43 kids going to college from Setxsports. If we don't have that many going, alot of good instruction isn't being used.

In the past 20 years we've had over 2400 kids come through Babe Ruth, many played professionally. We can usually picked the kid who will go on to the next level, and it's not always the most talented, it's the one that respects the game and plays the game when they know that there isn't a scout within 50 miles.

[Half Indian/Wildcat]

[quote name="GTBBaseball" post="1015521" timestamp="1306876823"]
Id like to create a forum on what parents, coaches, outsiders, players, etc... to get their insight on the "pro's and con's" of select baseball.
I have written some articles and will later post them, but would like to read and learn more insight from others "outside or within" the circle.

There is a "HUGE" difference in Select Baseball between the younger ages, 8-12, up to 14, compared to that of 16-18yr olds, so there will be a different perspective Id imagine from many on this topic. Please state with your insight, what level of play you are basically referring to.

Different areas that I can see worth discussing...
The decline of importance of "Team" first which directly effects high school baseball programs
The "select teams" not incorporating the high school coach with decision making of 'his' high school players playing select ball(pitch counts, positions to develop their player for the following season, not including the high school coach in the recruiting process with scouts-coaches...
The "self-entitlement" players-parents seem to adhere to as each season of select comes and goes
The "lack of knowledge and discipline" taught to the "select player" OR the advanced nature of development some programs provide.
The "over use of pitchers" or overuse of catchers
The "Select Schedule" format, whereby teams play 4,5, and at times 6 games in 2 or 3 days.
The format-foundation with all quality prospect teams at one site, to make it easier for college recruiters to see many players perform at one site in a 3-4 day span...
The quality of competition these players get to be challenged, exposed to each weekend
The umpires who call 3,4, and as we have experienced, 6 games in one day back to back to back, creating complacency, not being in proper position on the field and subpar knowledge of the rules
The 3 minutes in between innings where pitchers warm up and fielders take warm up ground balls in an hour a 40minute time limit game, leading to a total of 4inning baseball games, and 24-30 or more minutes waisted watching teams get out on the field after the 3rd out...
The format where 11 or 12 kids get to bat reducing the startegic part of the "game within the game" taught and developed by coaches and players.
The expenses of select tournament fees, hotel fees, drinks, gate fees,
The price and fees needed to attend player "Showcases"(example Perfect Game" has increased its showcase charges to $599 in 2011)

and many more issues and concerns I'll address later....

Thanks in advance,

Chris Fackler
[/quote]Where to start with this topic. First off kids in 2011 have huge advantages over kids from 10 to 12 years ago. They have every opprotunity to improve their skills, conditioning, and mental side of the game over kids from just a few years back with the personal trainers and schools such as Parrizi. I have kids that are 14,11 and 7 playing Baseball at the present time. My oldest 2 kids play select and my 11 year old plays Little League as well with the 7 yr old only playing Little League.  Little League in our area isnt what it used to be period. Most kids who are your best kids in Little league either quit and just play select or they do both which in most cases is a mistake. My boys both pitch and catch and if over used there would be no doubt coaches could do damage to their baseball careers. This is where "CHOICE" of who you decide to play for comes into play and what their concerns for your son as a player are. The word "TEAM" is only achieved on very few teams in most cases, but the Teams who do manage to have the Team mentallity are the ones who turn out the best. The main point of my post is mainly on the Select side of this post. I feel the select or the AA TEAMS should be taken out of the Select rankings of teams. 3 divisions makes for to many different levels of teams and Major teams from our area the closest tournaments they can  play is in the Houston or Lake charles areas which increases the cost. Second if you really want to improve your child the compitition level cant be below his skill level. It does him no good to go play against lesser compitition. I use Select to judge where my kids are on the big picture how they match up from kids from other areas of the state and around the country. I have had the chance to watch my oldest son play in Cooperstown , THE ELITE 32 Tournament in Orlando at Walt Disney and many other big tournament. And have got to see him play against the best kids his age AT THE MAJOR LEVEL and i feel great where he is at as a player in the big scheme of things. I have a brother who is a High School coach who is realizing how important it is for the younger kids to have quality Baseball knowledge taught at the younger ages. His teams in High School are now reaping the rewards from the kids who put in the hard work and the Professional Instructors who these kids go to to get better. Thanks to you Chris, and Sam Moore and Morgan Walker just to name a few of the men who have had a great impact teaching my kids this great game of Baseball they are the players they are today because of people like you who teach this great game. If there is one quality i can teach my kids is to respect this wonderful game and play it how it was meant to be played......... Jeff Lane

[GY55]

Our son is 18 and has been associated with Select Baseball for 8 years. I truly feel that the time, effort and expense has been worth it.
In the early years playing Select was about getting better prepared for when it came time to play high school ball. During the last 4 years,
playing Select has been about being the best that he can be. Our high school coach did not have a problem with our son playing Select
because Coach knew our son was receiving quality instructions and playing against quality opponents.
The "self-entitlement" issue can be found at any level of youth sports. There seems to be an attitude that you have arrived and now you are
owed something. I have never expected a coach to have to teach our son humility. No one is above the team and you work hard to earn
your way should be taught at HOME.
I believe that the Select program is better at the high school level than at the lower age groups. I love Dad Coaches because I was one but
there comes a time for Dad to step back and leave coaching to the ones with experience. I love my new job as a cheerleader.
We have been fortunate to have quality mentors throughout this Select experience. Jed McBride, Morgan Walker, Sam Moore and
Chris Fackler have taught our son that though discipline and hard work comes success.

If your son has the dream of playing college baseball, not talking about the pros, just using his baseball tools to help pay for his education, then
Select Baseball is worth a look. Research the coaching staff and the team organization before you have your son participate.
Keep in mind that, just like anything else, Select Baseball is what you make of it. If that road is not the one you want to travel, there
are great youth baseball organizations in all of our communities where your son can still play the game he loves.

Our experiences may not be typical but in our case, it was all worth it. Our son is one of the fortunate ones that will be playing the game
he loves at the college level. But, even if that dream did not come true, he has gotten to be teammates with some of this area's best players,
played in some of the nicer venues against teams from all over this country and along the way made lifelong friendships.


Good topic Coach,
Mike Markum

[Guest Brubaker]

I think it would be pretty accurate to say that Select, really isn't Select, until kids reach the 14 to 15 year old range.  I agree with Basebow and some of the others points, and can totally see where the exposure at this time of a kids development can be invaluable.

[KansasKev]

I don't necessarily agree with Select not being "select" until the 14-15 yeard old ages.  My son is a 7 year old and I am impressed daily with what our team has accomplished.  I will agree that the competition level is very watered down at the younger ages though if that is what you are seeing.  Our team plays mostly in Houston and LA against the tops teams from Houston/Corpus/LA to find tougher competition, and I still cannot believe I am watching 7 year old games in most instances.  There are some very impressive teams out there even at this young age.

My son does not play league ball and select.  I would never do that to him because it would ruin him because of who he is.  But there are kids on the team that do play both and their parents let them because they love baseball that much already.  As long as you listen to your child's wishes, I do not see the harm.  Of course I am speaking of 7-8 year olds where pitching has not become an issue yet.

I think that there are huge advantages to select ball at the 7/8 year old age as long as it is the right child and as long as you handle their emotions properly.  There are so many skills to learn/develop in baseball and if a child is ready at 7, select baseball gives him the opportunity to be introduced to a lot of skills that he would not normally get playing league ball.  I feel the most important thing that select ball helps with is developing the mental game of a player.  In league ball, they may learn how to catch a fly ball, but in select they are learning how to catch it in proper position and immediately look for the next out.  In league they may learn to tag up after a catch in the outfield, but in select they are learning how far to come off the base in anticipation of the ball being missed or on the bag ready to run as soon as it is caught.  My point is, these 7 year olds know what to do and where to go when the ball is put in play without parents screaming at them.  They are mentally involved in the game already.  That is not the case in league as most kids are still so focused on trying to make contact with the ball or just stop it at this age.

I am concerned at the emotional issues I see in kids this age however.  I do not know if it is pressure from the parents, the coaches or just society but these kids look like somebody just shot their dog when they come off the field from getting out or if they miss a ball defensively.  I am not talking about a strike out - I mean they lace a line drive down the line and their counterpart makes a great play for the out.  It can take them 2 innings to try to smile again.  That is not good at the 7 year old level.  I will take blame for being harsh on my son every once in a while but I do my best to tell him how proud I am of him and how he is playing ball better than daddy every thought about playing at his age.  I am very concerned that sports has developed so much that these kids do not ever get a chance to enjoy the game like it should be enjoyed. 

Does select make them better ballplayers at 7??  No doubt.  But at what cost??  I think that parents of select players must watch them very closely and make sure that they, or the child, are not setting unrealistic expectations for him.  League ball go drop your kid off because they are going to have fun.  Playing games against their best buddies, eating snow cones afterwards.  Select ball - make sure you are there every minute of practice and games and watch for any signs that your child is heading down a wrong path of emotions or just plain tired.

My last point - parents and coaches need to talk regularly at this age.  If a 7 year old is being taught one thing at home, another thing at practice, and then a third at a private lesson - they are not old enough to absorb all of that info and determine who is right or take pieces from each mentor and put it all together themselves. 

My son and I have been involved with select since last fall - and my verdict is still out at this point.  If the team comes together and can enjoy their state and World Series trips, I will be happy we did it win or lose.  If we lose throughout these last few weeks and parents/kids handle it the wrong way, I will question whether his development was worth it.

Keep the kids smiling and we all win!!!

[Walk off]

I think Select ball, I'm talking 16 - 18, is a great opportunity for the young men to make contacts (friends) with ball players outside thier normal sphere of influence. Also, gives them a chance to measure themselves against more players. If a kid has the desire to play at the next level, if he seriously wants this for himself,  the more he is exposed to other opponents, other pitchers, besides the same old district rivals, the better. So much depends on the kids mental maturity, but the chance for self evalutaion and improvement are big. Any level the player can only get out or benefit to the extent he puts in.
I also place a high value on leage play. The chances it provides for fun. For the kids to get playing time, not just the select players, but joe-maybe-a-little-less-than-average. And there are a lot more of them out there. Some of todays "stars" were ugly ducklings once. The kid who was undersized till a late growth spurt, tripped over his own feet till the rest of him cauight up. Or grew up in a house without any real sports influence. Leauge play gives every one an opportunity and if they take to it (like a duck to water), select can allow them to broaden those skills.    :)

[AJ25]

I haven't read but probably half of the posts, so I am not positive that is has not been spoken about... But I will speak on the non-select side of the spectrum. The little leagues, babe ruth's, etc...

I never played more than 30 games with select teams. I played half a season with two different teams, and also was invited to play for the best select team at that time (about 6-10 years ago) but was unable to afford any of them. I was stuck with little league throughout my childhood... Now, it is a completely different little league in Lumberton than it used to be. Things have gotten much worse, but I know it isn't like that at every little league. For kids like me that played several other sports and did other things, this was perfect. I was able to practice twice a week and play twice a week. While I was one of the better players in the league and games weren't always hard, as much as I hate to admit something like that, I still absolutely loved it. It was a great way to gain great friendships and have FUN playing baseball. Which is what it is all about, after all. Luckily during my LL days, most of the better players played both LL and select as select was just coming into the picture. The coaching wasn't always the best, as most were dads, but they all tried hard. Once I got to high school, I went out to mid county for the summers and had some of my most fond memories of the game out there. Again, most of the better players played and you were able to just play two days a week and get plenty of work in!

The downside to LL is the fact that you are not able to get consistent work in. Because of football, I to this day feel like I was not near as good in high school as I could of been because I played 5 months out of the year while the better players played year round. But not every player wants to play that much, which is when LL is the best option. So, after saying all of this... It really all depends on the kid. Not every little guy wants to play pro and college, which is when league ball is the best. For the kids with the burning desire to be better and play better ball, select becomes an option. [b]Never push your kid to the point where you are living your dream through them, it ruins the game for them.[/b] Let the kid do what he wants, assuming you have the means to.

Tyler Wilson

[Eagle0011]

My son will be a Sr. next year and has played select since he was 6.  I have another son that plays select as well, and have 2 more sons that will be playing league. One thing I have learned is that what most call "select "is really buddy ball, a good group of kids and a couple of dads that want the kids to experience a higher level of ball(nothing wrong with that).  I agree with Basebow, true select baseball does not start until 13/14/15 age.  I can say that if you play at the premier level, you see better pitching, hitting and it is a different world from anything else.  It is all about getting kids to the next level, but I have also learned they need to have fun. Select is not for every kid or parent, I have 2 that play select and 2 that don't, I'm just glad they play the game and have fun, while getting better.  There will be plenty of time for exposure and getting serious when they hit the incoming freshman mark.  For all those that have kids getting recruited, has any college coach ever asked "Where did Jr. play 11/12 yr old ball at ?"  I do not think so.  I know known have asked us that and my oldest is getting recruited a little.  As long as they are playing they have a chance to become great, all kids develop at a different pace and just because you are Great when you are 8, does not mean you will be a standout at 15.  I'm just happy they play and all four of my boys are different and at different levels of skill, and that’s the great part of it.  As the expense of select, yes it is very costly, but you spend it because the kids love it, because if you are doing it for a chance of a scholarship, well lets just say that is a bad investment, there is nothing for sure and if I would have invested all the money I spent on select baseball, I could have sent my kids to Harvard. You do it for the kids that want it and as a parent you want to give them what they want.  Nothing wrong with League ball or select.  The kids are playing,thats the main thing.

[GTBBaseball]

Here are some things to get "new" ideas and insight.

1) Games beginning at 8am on Sat and Sunday mornings. (play in Houston, wake at 530am, drive for 90minutes, get on field for 8am game)
2) Sunday schedules 90% of the time are set whereby teams must play 3 and sometimes 4 games in a single day(teaches survival, not focus n execution)
3) time limit games has turned into "sprint ball" with only 4 and sometimes 5 inning games(those who score alot early, usually win)
4) Ive heard many teach their teams-parents that the 2 games on Saturday "do not mean anything" for all they do is set your "seeding"... whats this teach our kids about the "competing and team baseball" if "they dont mean anything"
5) 11 n 12 man rosters batting entire lineup therefore with "time limit" games, most kids in the lineup only get 2 at bats in a given game
6) Umpiring crews calling 4 straight games and at times 6games in one day. Are they expected NOT to become complacent and lose focus?

Concerns are 'players health' , pitchers 'arm care' , and the "development" of "team" baseball.
What ideas can alter this system to develop "team" players and not play 4 inning games? Kids need to know baseball is a game of creating momentum shifts and making opponents "lose confidence and create self-doubt" so are there enough innings for "comebacks" and to teach "how to respond" with time limit games?

Example of your typical tournament on any given weekend:
You play 2 games on Saturday that the masses say "dont mean anything", then on Sunday you must play 3games just to earn right to play in the final game. Meaning play at 8am, 10am, then maybe a break, sometimes not, sometimes play 3 straight games with no break just to make the finals.
Thats 6 games in less then 24hours, usually 4innings and a couple games 5innings, so your total "team" innings is 24-27inning for the weekend(and thats based on teams who are good enough to continue winning through-out the weekend and advancing).

Im not sure there are ways to alter this, but maybe some can share ideas to alter the format of grass roots select ball.

[Rake1]

Here are a couple of thoughts.....

1. I would rather play 4 or 5 innings of "competitive" select baseball than 3 or 4 innings of league ball where the score is 25-14 with 20 walks in a game. That's the baseball equivalent of Nyquil! Now before someone gets offended I'm not saying all league ball is this way, it's just way more prevalent in league than select. Plus it depends on age. The Babe Ruth league is incredibly talented and they play some great ball, of course these guys are high school level and that makes a big difference.

2. You could possibly change the format of the select tournaments and lock in a set amount of games. Take fewer teams, make them round robin, 2 on Sat and 2 on Sun, champ has best record or some sort of tie breaker. Still competitive but takes away the extended play of 4 or 5 five games in a day as well as over use issues etc. Set a pitching and defensive rotation that spreads out playing time which helps develop players at different positions. This also would allow coaches to hit 9 or 10 guys instead of the whole lineup. Let the starting pitcher for the 2nd game sit out and be fresh for the next game, take the first game starter and let them sit out the 2nd. Same could be done for catchers.

It all basically boils down to how coaches want to play it. Are you chasing records and trophies or really trying to make kids better. If you make your intentions clear up front about what you want to do with your team (develop and not worry about your record or trophy hunt) then everyone goes into the season on the same page. Parents have to be realistic as well. The burden falls on many peoples shoulders.





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[adminbaberuth]

Love the talk on baseball. First Fack and Rake1 are some of the best baseball people in the area and thanks Rake 1 on the shoutout about Babe Ruth.

Select tournaments and Babe Ruth tournaments have positives and negatives, I'll address Babe Ruth compared to Select.



[b]1) Games beginning at 8am on Sat and Sunday mornings. (play in Houston, wake at 530am, drive for 90minutes, get on field for 8am game)[/b]

Babe Ruth tournament would be this. Whoever is hosting the tournment would be responsbile to host all the teams with host parents. If Mid County would be playing we would arrive at designated spot along with other teams traveling, host parents would take 2 or 4 players and house them. They would get them to batting practice, wash clothes and feed them. After ther game, they would take their players back with them and do the same thing over the next day.

[b]2) Sunday schedules 90% of the time are set whereby teams must play 3 and sometimes 4 games in a single day(teaches survival, not focus n execution)[/b]

In my 20 years involved, we have never played more than 2 games in one day. Now we have started some at 1 or 2 am, but never scheduled more than 2

[b]3) time limit games has turned into "sprint ball" with only 4 and sometimes 5 inning games(those who score alot early, usually win)[/b]

Never had a time limit, you play 7 innings. If game is postponed you pick next day where you left off.

[b]4) Ive heard many teach their teams-parents that the 2 games on Saturday "do not mean anything" for all they do is set your "seeding"... whats this teach our kids about the "competing and team baseball" if "they dont mean anything"[/b]

Unless you make to the World Series, it's always double elimination. Every game counts.

[b]5) 11 n 12 man rosters batting entire lineup therefore with "time limit" games, most kids in the lineup only get 2 at bats in a given game[/b]

In Babe Ruth 18 on our roster isn't enough. We have no DH, no couresty runners for pitcher or catcher. If you want to run for either you burn a player. When our teams take off for tournament, no one is guaranteed playing time. If you are a pitcher you might throw to one batter, if you pinch hit it might be just to bunt. All 18 players usually play, not because of a play rule but to play a role to win the game.

[b]6) Umpiring crews calling 4 straight games and at times 6games in one day. Are they expected NOT to become complacent and lose focus?[/b]

All tournaments have 5 man crews. They rotate.

There is no right or wrong way to get the kids better. Just get them out there and let them play the best game ever invented.

[thetragichippy]

When this topic was created, I knew how I felt about the Little League program or Circus (My city), but had not had any experience in select.

A couple months ago my son made a select/elite team.  We have played 2 tourneys and I have to say no matter what negatives you hear, it's worth it if you want to teach your son REAL baseball.

My son has learned and improved more in these two months, than the 2 years in LL.  If I could do it all over again, he would have been in select from early on. We are still going to play LL this year.....because he wants to play against his friends, not for improving his game.

I would recommend this to anyone who wants their kid to learn baseball at a completely different level.  I was amazed at the talent at the two tournaments we have participated in.  Can't wait till February!!

[westend1]

All depends on how the league is run and how much community involvement you have.  i can assure you that Bridge City and West End have competitive league games.  The pitchers you see at West End are also pitching at Ford park on the weekends when schedules allow.

[Dayton Transplant]

My experience over last 8 years of select and now more of a showcase is the organization you are with. Select is good for those that are ahead in developement imo. Many parent run groups go through the same thinks you do in league ball. Professional coaches through GTB, Houston Heat, Banditos etc are going to pay off. Expensive (yes in deed) but you get what you pay for. We are now in later years of HS and you can see the difference. I wish HS was more willing to work with select groups but seems egos get in the way. My son would not be where he is today if not for select ball. NO WHERE NEAR.

[BLUEDOVE3]

You will definitely find a similar correlation of achievement in select sports no matter if its volleyball, baseball, basketball, etc. First of all, I would start young only if a kid has a certain amount of talent and let them play against similar talented kids. It allows parents and kids see their weaknesses and strengths against other so-called elite players. I can tell you, I've seen elite baseball players in middle school play. No comparison to your average neighborhood superstar teams. The hardest thing is to keep it fun. The select environment will put and your kid into a very competitive mode because thats just the way it is.

[Bobcat101]

[quote name="Scalp'em" post="1015738" timestamp="1306952782"]
The new fad that I've observed lately is lilltle leagues creating teams comprising kids from one league. The idea is to have the kids gel before all-stars and gives them a head start on practices. The only problem that I see with the younger kids 12 and under group is if kids are playing a 16 game little league schedule and then playing another 20 to 30 game select schedule is eventually the kids will get burned out. I don't think it's in the best interest of the kids that pitch either. It's hard for me to believe that these young kids aren't going to have some type of arm problems after throwing over 150 pitches in a five day period. Here's an example, top pitcher on a little league team and he is placed on a select team. He pitches 75 pitches Friday night for little league and then another 75 pitches during the weekend select tournament. This kid will probably pitch towards the end of that next week putting him around 220 pitches in a 7 day period. I think there should be some type of rule that if a select team under 12 years old plays one weekend that they aren't allowed to play until the third weekend. That gives select teams two weekends to play per month. That may not be the answer, but something along those lines. We've been involved in select for a while at the younger age and I'm kind os scratchiing my head why we've spent the money we have so far. Select is so watered down now, that depending on what tournament and teams that are playing, it's not that much more then little league IMO.
[/quote]


Great point. But Ultimaly is up to the Parent...  Now way in hell my kids will more than 100 pitches in a weekend. Period.....

Parents who let their kids (under 16) throw 100+ pitches and curve balls are idiots.



No exceptions.

[Guest TX_RENEGADES]

Great point. But Ultimaly is up to the Parent...  Now way in heck my kids will more than 100 pitches in a weekend. Period.....

Parents who let their kids (under 16) throw 100+ pitches and curve balls are idiots.



No exceptions.
[/quote]

You are right, its up to the parent but I can tell you that if a select/Elite.Premier PITCHER 16 & Under or example my boy being 11u doesnt have a max of 3/4 pitches he will not make it as a top pitcher. My son has 4 pitches and his curve ball is the KILL shot. I always keep track of his pitches though, never gets close to 65.