Jim's and Joe's or X's and O's??

[I_Can_Do_It_ALL!]

In HS football is it the talent you have or the coaching you have?

Take WOS (just as an example), they have some CATS that can flat out run... Now look at BC, they have average kids..... Just an example of two good SETX programs!

[Guest Pirate_pride_07]

IMO its both. You can have amazing talent and have not so good coaching and make the playoffs and go one round maybe two but eventually you will get out coached. You can have a great coaching staff and decent players and you will get into the playoffs but you will eventually meet a team that has better athletes and coaching skills can't really get you through every single game to state. So therefore IMO you need both. But that's just my opinion.

[football]

It is both.  It is more the jim's and joe's.  i do not know of a single offense designed not to score or of a defense designed not to stop someone.  If you think BC has average kids, you need to reevaluate your process of judging talent.  They have at least 5 kids on both sides of the ball that could start for anyone in district. 

[Kville_Kats]

Since this an open thread and not directed directly to anyone I might get away with making a comment with-out getting hate mail or my suit size asked of me  from a known Hit-Man ;D  The best Coach Kirbyville ever had in my opinion had a motto saying: It's '10% inspiration and 90% perspiration'...The will to win will overcome the lack of talent in most cases...Maybe not the coveted State Crown,But respectability of your peers..And having a good Coach don't hurt either ;)

[Guest UHCoog14]

Jim's and Joe's can win without X's and O's.

X's and O's cannot win without Jim's and Joe's.

[Kville_Kats]

[quote name="GCMPats" post="1101337" timestamp="1320152110"]
Jim's and Joe's can win without X's and O's.

X's and O's cannot win without Jim's and Joe's.
[/quote]

Ok Give me two of each..... ;D ;D

[the sports guy]

I have seen programs that dont win from 7th grade to the JV level, but win at the Varsity level. That is the x's and o's of coaching them up.  I have seen the same in reverse......lets put that one on the jim and joes. ;D

[I_ME_MY]

Has to be a combination of both, but I say there's a [b]HEAVY[/b] emphasis on Jim's and Joe's.  Look at Todd Dodge.  Had a steady flow of superior athletes at Carroll and was able to put together a ridiculous ninety-something and 10 record while dominating class 5A and winning multiple State Championships.  Then moves on to N. Texas where he has average athletes (compared to the rest of the Sun Belt Conference) and his teams can't pee a drop.  Posts a 6 and thirty-something record.
One would think that if the emphasis was on X's and O's, that he could have kept that success going at the next level.

[SFA85]

X's and O's.  You can't out-athlete anymore.  Especially playing 5A ball

[TITAN POWER]

Jim's and Joe's

[robanadana]

Both but I lean heavily to the X's and O's. Beaumont Ozen should win district every year with their talent but they don't. Same thing is happening to Central. PNG and Nederland respectively have average talent but make the playoffs every year. Look at the success of Katy's program. Take their coach away and they become average. You can have all the Joes you want but you need a coach to take it to the next level. A good coach can win anywhere given time to build his program.

[bobwhite]

Winning and losing are both habits.... Good coaches instill good work habits (ethics) and attitudes, great coaches instill great work ethics and attitudes...losers not so much...Show me a program that consistently produces winning results (not just making the playoffs), and I'll show you a good coach with great talent or a great coach with good talent regardless of the X's and O's...When you get the years where a great coach has great talent you get Champions...

[knows2much]

Let the UT football staff have the Lamar football team for a month.  Let the Lamar football staff have the UT football team for a month.  Then let them play each other with those teams.  We'll see exactly how much ''Joes'' have to do with it.

[belle-mere]

[quote name="bobwhite" post="1106126" timestamp="1320525372"]
Winning and losing are both habits.... Good coaches instill good work habits (ethics) and attitudes, great coaches instill great work ethics and attitudes...losers not so much...Show me a program that consistently produces winning results (not just making the playoffs), and I'll show you a good coach with great talent or a great coach with good talent regardless of the X's and O's...When you get the years where a great coach has great talent you get Champions...
[/quote]

I completely agree that winning becomes a habit.  I've seen teams, not necessarily with superior athletes, refuse to lose because their team has a habit of winning.  That has a lot to do with Xs and Os, but that habit is already instilled in those kids through tradition and expectations. 

[Guest ECBucFan]

4A & 5A, X & O's,

3A to 1A, J & J's.

[Cougtalk]

[quote name="ECBucFan" post="1106694" timestamp="1320556125"]
4A & 5A, X & O's,

3A to 1A, J & J's.
[/quote]

Agree. Althought if the x and o = close its all about the joes.

[incognito]

I'd say the Jimmy and Joe concept is more true at the Collegiate or Pro levels since everyone has a solid coaching approach, but at the high school level it's about working with what you have and developing what you have. There is no secret potion out there. If you work hard and develop mental toughness, strength, and speed in your player then teach your system; you will put yourself in a situation to win games.

You have to build your own Jimmies and Joes. I mean, you have to have good players, but as a coach it is important that you teach those jimmies and joes "how" to do what it is you expect and get them to compete at a high level. Otherwise you have a bunch of underachievers. Coaching is motivating a kid to want to do his best and compete in everything that he does, on the field and off the field. Coaching is staying current with the players, trying to tie in football or whatever you coach into things that are relevant to them. But still being authoritative and giving them a good kick in the pants when needed.
Players are the ones that run and execute the plays, you can have the best players in the universe with the best play drawn up known to man. But if you can't teach them and gain that connection with them then no one will ever know that they're good players.

There is NO shortcut to motivating high school kids to develop as athletes and football players. It is a huge investment of time and energy to motivate these kids to take advantage of the opportunities that are offered to them to improve as athletes and football players. Hard work in the weight room is going to help kids improve their athletic ability, more specifically, their size, strength, speed, and agility. Hard work in drills is going to help kids improve their football-related skills both in general and specific to their particular position. Until we have more coaches believing this to be true, we're going to continue to have schools on the quest for the magic bullet scheme.  So you have to develop your players during the off-season. That's when you win games. Not during the season. Too many people on this board think it's a certain O or D.

While we're talking Jimmies and Joes let's not confuse great athletes with great football players. You don't need to have an OL made up of 6'5" 280 lb. D.1 prospects. You can be really good with a bunch of 5'10" 220 kids who are strong, smart, and technically sound. We've all seen great HS QBs who are too short for D.1 and great HS RBs who run a 4.8. You need good players but the key word is "players". You can be really good without a collection of "prospects".

[belle-mere]

Nice post Pirate Pride.  That's what every coach should aspire to do.  But, what if the bodies of the Js & Js do not develop into 220 lbs.?  Or if they are slow?  Will any amount of motivation make them larger or faster?  I do believe that a good coach can get so much more out of kid than the kid realizes he can do, but reality slaps the kid in the face when he can't keep up or is run over.  But, I like your attitude and can-do spirit.  It's what we should all believe--sorry to be such a cynic.

[Cougtalk]

[quote name="belle-mere" post="1110432" timestamp="1320896185"]
Nice post Pirate Pride.  That's what every coach should aspire to do.  But, what if the bodies of the Js & Js do not develop into 220 lbs.?  Or if they are slow?  Will any amount of motivation make them larger or faster?  I do believe that a good coach can get so much more out of kid than the kid realizes he can do, but reality slaps the kid in the face when he can't keep up or is run over.  But, I like your attitude and can-do spirit.  It's what we should all believe--sorry to be such a cynic.
[/quote]

See there is a misnomber here. You can teach speed, you can't teach elite speed, can't make a kid run a 4.3 forty, but in every person you can teach them to run faster/explode harder and increase lateral quickness.

Size will happen (im speaking from a 3-5a perspective.)

Now teams get phenoms and that helps alot, but how the team plays is derived from the coaching.

[Gasilla]

J&J's then X&O's then whats between those J&J's ears. Mentality and preparation are the most important aspects. You can have all the talent in the world, but if the kids don't believe they can win, they wont. Once you get them believing in themselves and having the mentality that they can win every time they step on the field, then everything else will take root. IMO

[Zoneblock]

Two teams evenly matched all about X's and O's
other than that Jimmy and Joe

[Kville_Kats]

[quote name="Cougtalk" post="1110530" timestamp="1320903384"]
[quote author=belle-mere link=topic=90763.msg1110432#msg1110432 date=1320896185]
Nice post Pirate Pride.  That's what every coach should aspire to do.  But, what if the bodies of the Js & Js do not develop into 220 lbs.?  Or if they are slow?  Will any amount of motivation make them larger or faster?  I do believe that a good coach can get so much more out of kid than the kid realizes he can do, but reality slaps the kid in the face when he can't keep up or is run over.  But, I like your attitude and can-do spirit.  It's what we should all believe--sorry to be such a cynic.
[/quote]

See there is a misnomber here. You can teach speed, you can't teach elite speed, can't make a kid run a 4.3 forty, but in every person you can teach them to run faster/explode harder and increase lateral quickness.

[b]Size will happen (im speaking from a 3-5a perspective.)
[/b]
Now teams get phenoms and that helps alot, but how the team plays is derived from the coaching.
[/quote]

Are you saying all kids in 1A & 2A are midgets...Iv'e seen lot's of 2A school's with lines bigger than 5A...what a ridiculous statement..lmao ;D