Is Select Baseball Ruining League Baseball?

[Puma concolor]

My question is what made league ball the standard?  Why couldn't one say league ball is hurting select ball?

[thetragichippy]

[quote name="Puma concolor" post="1166182" timestamp="1327587060"]
My question is what made league ball the standard?  Why couldn't one say league ball is hurting select ball?
[/quote]

The biggest difference between the two is coaching. As a general rule you will get better coaching from a select league. Most select players play league for fun. I don't see how league would hurt select.....

[westend1]

[quote name="thetragichippy" post="1166458" timestamp="1327611692"]
[quote author=Puma concolor link=topic=93312.msg1166182#msg1166182 date=1327587060]
My question is what made league ball the standard?  Why couldn't one say league ball is hurting select ball?
[/quote]

The biggest difference between the two is coaching. As a general rule you will get better coaching from a select league. Most select players play league for fun. I don't see how league would hurt select.....
[/quote] 

???  I hope they play both "for fun".

[thetragichippy]

[quote name="westend1" post="1166475" timestamp="1327612686"]
[quote author=thetragichippy link=topic=93312.msg1166458#msg1166458 date=1327611692]
[quote author=Puma concolor link=topic=93312.msg1166182#msg1166182 date=1327587060]
My question is what made league ball the standard?  Why couldn't one say league ball is hurting select ball?
[/quote]

The biggest difference between the two is coaching. As a general rule you will get better coaching from a select league. Most select players play league for fun. I don't see how league would hurt select.....
[/quote] 

???  I hope they play both "for fun".
[/quote]

It's a game, so yes it's for fun. I can only speak for my experience, but my Son has improved over the last few months more than the last few years in league.  When your better trained at a sport you even have MORE fun.

[PhatMack19]

I'm kinda up in the air in the select vs. league debate.  On one hand, if you don't get your kid in select you risk them getting passed up by others.  If you do and they get burned out then you wasted your money. 

When I was little we had 12 league games then a few all-star games and that was it and we moved on to the next sport.  Now some of these teams are playing 80+ games a year at ages as young as 5 or 6 years old!  I was digging through pictures a while back and found my 9 yr old all-star picture.  Out of that team of 15 players only 3 of us ended up playing baseball in HS.  My point is that most of your kids will end up getting burned out before HS anyways, so always make sure they are having a fun with whatever they choose. 

I also have a problem with young select pitchers throwing 200 innings a year in all of these tourneys. A growing kids arm is not made to go through that kind of strain, so make sure your select coach is about teaching and safety as opposed to how many trophies he can win in 8 yr old select.  LL has rules to protect the kids where I don't think select does as much.

[BLUEDOVE3]

Kids don't play right field anymore. Everybody are pitchers now?

[rounder17]

[quote name="PhatMack19" post="1166485" timestamp="1327613713"]
I'm kinda up in the air in the select vs. league debate.  On one hand, if you don't get your kid in select you risk them getting passed up by others.  If you do and they get burned out then you wasted your money. 

When I was little we had 12 league games then a few all-star games and that was it and we moved on to the next sport.  Now some of these teams are playing 80+ games a year at ages as young as 5 or 6 years old!  I was digging through pictures a while back and found my 9 yr old all-star picture.  Out of that team of 15 players only 3 of us ended up playing baseball in HS.  My point is that most of your kids will end up getting burned out before HS anyways, so always make sure they are having a fun with whatever they choose. 

I also have a problem with young select pitchers throwing 200 innings a year in all of these tourneys. A growing kids arm is not made to go through that kind of strain, so make sure your select coach is about teaching and safety as opposed to how many trophies he can win in 8 yr old select.  LL has rules to protect the kids where I don't think select does as much.
[/quote]

I would have killed to play 80+ games a year when I was a kid.  I won't let any of players come any where close to 200, heck not even 100. But I was a pitcher for a litlle bit, so I am a little precautious when it comes to things like that. I won't even let my high school guys throw over 85 pitches in a game.

[BLUEDOVE3]

So, should be the title of this thread actually read, " Is Select Baseball Ruining Pitchers?"

[thetragichippy]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1166664" timestamp="1327672048"]
So, should be the title of this thread actually read, " Is Select Baseball Ruining Pitchers?"
[/quote]

You know, it's funny that this topic somehow comes up everytime youth baseball (select or league) is talked about.  Every team my son has ever played on, the coach (some good and some very, very bad) was always concerned about the number of throws the pitcher made.  I think there may be a few(very few) coaches that would risk a childs arm for a game, but I would say 99% of the coaches care more about the kids than the win.

Just my view........

[td]

[quote name="thetragichippy" post="1166711" timestamp="1327675000"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=93312.msg1166664#msg1166664 date=1327672048]
So, should be the title of this thread actually read, " Is Select Baseball Ruining Pitchers?"
[/quote]

You know, it's funny that this topic somehow comes up everytime youth baseball (select or league) is talked about.  Every team my son has ever played on, the coach (some good and some very, very bad) was always concerned about the number of throws the pitcher made.  I think there may be a few(very few) coaches that would risk a childs arm for a game, but I would say 99% of the coaches care more about the kids than the win.

Just my view........
[/quote]


I couldn't agree more. I know we put pitch count ahead of everything especially winning.

[falcolnfanatic]

Pitch count is extremely overrated as a saftey tool. There is no magic number where if a kid throws more than that he is going to have an injury. Pitchers get injured when they get tired and lose thier  mechanics. The point at which the pitcher gets tired changes every game depending on the pitcher, weather, and other things. Having a pitcher throw 40+ pitches in a single inning is going to do more damage than throwing 100 for the whole game. As long as you keep an eye on the pitcher and take him out when he starts to get tired ( loss of control especially leaving the ball up, loss of velocity, dragging the arm) and the give him the proper rest he needs he will be fine. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a pitcher start a game and throw 80+ pitches and then go out and play SS or worse catcher the next game. That is going to damage the arm more than a pitch count will.

[westend1]

I don't know what is causing it, but go ask the orthopedic docs around here and they will tell you that they are seeing more serious arm injuries in young kids than ever before.

[STiger85]

Don't yall just love it when it is said that there is better coaches in select than little league. If the same coach coaches select and little league does he turn on a "Better Coach" switch when they go to select. I have coached both leagues and I have loved every minute of it. While on select teams there is better talent through out the team because you can select players, in little league you have to draft players and some players have not advanced in talent as quickly as others. But all players have a general love for the game. I believe that is where the better coaches come from. In little league, if little Tommy in right field gets a ball hit to him and he throws it ten feet in front of him trying to reach second base, some will say "can't that coach teach him how to throw a ball". I say well he was throwing to the right place. If the same thing happen in select ball some will say "boy that coach has him burning that ball to second". I think what is hurting both leagues is the scheduling. Some cities play little league on Saturdays and some do not. Some of the smaller cities Saturday games means a lot of money. Also, some select coaches refuse to let there player play in other leagues. I think is bad. I say let them play both, because if you ask a young player they mite want to play with there school friends, not just teammates.

[falcolnfanatic]

[quote name="westend1" post="1166786" timestamp="1327681690"]
I don't know what is causing it, but go ask the orthopedic docs around here and they will tell you that they are seeing more serious arm injuries in young kids than ever before.
[/quote]

Pitching is an unnatural act. You are going to have injuries regardless of what you do. Almost everyone who has played baseball for a significant amount of time is going to have shoulder damage.

Now I would say the increase of army injures among children is due to a couple of different things. One is they simply don't rest or recover properly. Its fine if you want to play 80+ games a year, but you can't have your star pitcher start a game and then go out and play a position. You have to give your arm time to recover. Two would be throwing breaking pitches wrong. If you don't throw sliders or curveballs properly you are going to get injured. Third would be the pitchers body is just not conditioned enough. Core and leg work are important, but by strengthening the small muscles in the shoulder with workouts you can do at home you will greatly reduce the risk of injury.

[EAGLE07]

[quote name="falconfanatic" post="1166797" timestamp="1327682658"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=93312.msg1166786#msg1166786 date=1327681690]
I don't know what is causing it, but go ask the orthopedic docs around here and they will tell you that they are seeing more serious arm injuries in young kids than ever before.
[/quote]

Pitching is an unnatural act. You are going to have injuries regardless of what you do. Almost everyone who has played baseball for a significant amount of time is going to have shoulder damage.

Now I would say the increase of army injures among children is due to a couple of different things. One is they simply don't rest or recover properly. Its fine if you want to play 80+ games a year, but you can't have your star pitcher start a game and then go out and play a position. You have to give your arm time to recover. Two would be throwing breaking pitches wrong. If you don't throw sliders or curveballs properly you are going to get injured. Third would be the pitchers body is just not conditioned enough. Core and leg work are important, but by strengthening the small muscles in the shoulder with workouts you can do at home you will greatly reduce the risk of injury.
[/quote]

Spot on, Falcon.
Very well said.

[thetragichippy]

[quote name="STiger85" post="1166787" timestamp="1327681699"]
[size=12pt]Don't yall just love it when it is said that there is better coaches in select than little league.[/size] If the same coach coaches select and little league does he turn on a "Better Coach" switch when they go to select. I have coached both leagues and I have loved every minute of it. While on select teams there is better talent through out the team because you can select players, in little league you have to draft players and some players have not advanced in talent as quickly as others. But all players have a general love for the game. I believe that is where the better coaches come from. In little league, if little Tommy in right field gets a ball hit to him and he throws it ten feet in front of him trying to reach second base, some will say "can't that coach teach him how to throw a ball". I say well he was throwing to the right place. If the same thing happen in select ball some will say "boy that coach has him burning that ball to second". I think what is hurting both leagues is the scheduling. Some cities play little league on Saturdays and some do not. Some of the smaller cities Saturday games means a lot of money. Also, some select coaches refuse to let there player play in other leagues. I think is bad. I say let them play both, because if you ask a young player they mite want to play with there school friends, not just teammates.
[/quote]

Usually, there are better coaches in select than LL.  In league ball you sometimes get a Dad that was nice enough to volunteer because of lack of coaches. That's not a bad thing, it's actually a good thing. However, if that Dad did not play baseball, he would probably not make the best coach or be able to teach fundamentals..  There are exceptions, but usually an experienced coach is better than a Dad coach.

I am/was not taking away from ANY coach in any division. Having coached myself, I appreciate what they do on any level.

We are also playing LL and Select. My Son wants to be able to play with his friends and I don't blame him.

[ragarm55]

IMO...Select is good for position players as they, most of the time, get to play 3+ innings a game and get the reps to aide development.

It's another matter with Pitchers...They will, most weekends, get, at most, 3 innings of pitching time.  In most cases it's 2.  This, IMO, is not development.  It's making sure that a team member, who has paid his fees, gets into a game, once or twice a weekend.  How can you develop, throwing 15 to 25 pitches a weekend?  This often leads to just going out there and, realizing your not going to be there long,
throwing as hard as you can to impress the guns...Not development.

As for the getting seen by Scouts promise...If a player has talent...HE WILL BE SEEN.  IMO...

[PhatMack19]

[quote name="falconfanatic" post="1166797" timestamp="1327682658"]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=93312.msg1166786#msg1166786 date=1327681690]
[b]I don't know what is causing it, but go ask the orthopedic docs around here and they will tell you that they are seeing more serious arm injuries in young kids than ever before[/b].
[/quote]

Pitching is an unnatural act. You are going to have injuries regardless of what you do. Almost everyone who has played baseball for a significant amount of time is going to have shoulder damage.

Now I would say the increase of army injures among children is due to a couple of different things. One is they simply don't rest or recover properly. Its fine if you want to play 80+ games a year, but you can't have your star pitcher start a game and then go out and play a position. You have to give your arm time to recover. Two would be throwing breaking pitches wrong. If you don't throw sliders or curveballs properly you are going to get injured. Third would be the pitchers body is just not conditioned enough. Core and leg work are important, but by strengthening the small muscles in the shoulder with workouts you can do at home you will greatly reduce the risk of injury.
[/quote]

When I played, the only people having Tommy John surgery were professional players.  Now its common place for kids as young as 13 to get the surgery.  The amount of arm injuries now is ridiculous compared to just 10 or 15 years ago.  I guess that has nothing to do with increased workload.  ::)

I was a catcher my whole life and have had 3 knee surgeries because of it.  I also have a problem with a kid catching 6 or 7 games in a weekend.  That happens a lot in select especially at younger ages.  Everyone counts pitches but most don't realize the wear and tear on a catchers knees. 

I'm not trying to bash select or say it is bad to play that many games at a young age.  My whole point is to protect your kids.  Your kids future isn't worth some trophy.  Hopefully, your kids coaches are great and are concerned with their health first and foremost.  Just be careful.

[BaseBow]

I think the league people that do not know 0 about baseball are ruining league play >:(..This is just my opinion ..I have one playing league and played both last season...Did the same with my oldest... (started him at 12)..Not 2...Both select and league do the kids well.. as long as somebody with a little baseball knowledge is coaching them not one of the 0s.. ;)

[lefty3162]

Mack I have always wondered why coaches have never taken care of catchers like they do pitchers.The way I see it catchers throw as many pitches as the pitchers do,But they have to throw them from their knees.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="lefty3162" post="1167628" timestamp="1327809698"]
Mack I have always wondered why coaches have never taken care of catchers like they do pitchers.The way I see it catchers throw as many pitches as the pitchers do,But they have to throw them from their knees.
[/quote]I bet I know why. Most coaches' sons don't catch, they pitch, right?

[JWB]

Wrong...thats not always the case...alot of coaches kids may pitch,but alot catch too,including mine....as far as select ruining baseball, IMO it makes "some" little leagues stronger,and the competition better if the scheduling is set up, so the kids can play both, my kids currently play at BCLL,and play select baseball,and softball. BCLL does a great job of scheduling games during the week,so that it doesn't clash with weekend tourneys...we did play at another LL in Orange County that didn't care to make it work,and have lost alot of good players because of it. Select or league?....IMO it boils down to the kid,and how serious they are about the game,and at the end of the day its our job as parents to recognize if we're putting them in a position to be successful,or burning them out....But in some cases, I think Little league is ruining Little league

[RR8]

I agree with Basebow on this one. Both Select and League ball can be a good experience, you just need a coach that knows what he is teaching. My opinion is that some parents are what is hurting League ball. I know that NNLL could be much better if the league as a whole would embrace their kids playing both instead of bashing those who play select. I also think a couple that are in certain positions should make the best decisions possible for the league based on the good for all players and not just their own. BCLL does a great job of balancing league and select to allow kids to do both.

[LLDad]

[quote name="JWB" post="1167664" timestamp="1327839830"]
Wrong...thats not always the case...alot of coaches kids may pitch,but alot catch too,including mine....as far as select ruining baseball, IMO it makes "some" little leagues stronger,and the competition better if the scheduling is set up, so the kids can play both, my kids currently play at BCLL,and play select baseball,and softball. BCLL does a great job of scheduling games during the week,so that it doesn't clash with weekend tourneys...we did play at another LL in Orange County that didn't care to make it work,and have lost alot of good players because of it. Select or league?....IMO it boils down to the kid,and how serious they are about the game,and at the end of the day its our job as parents to recognize if we're putting them in a position to be successful,or burning them out....But in some cases, I think Little league is ruining Little league
[/quote]

???  This will be the second year that OYBS will have no Saturday games.


[quote author=PhatMack19 link=topic=93312.msg1166860#msg1166860 date=1327686921]
[quote author=falconfanatic link=topic=93312.msg1166797#msg1166797 date=1327682658]
[quote author=westend1 link=topic=93312.msg1166786#msg1166786 date=1327681690]
[b]I don't know what is causing it, but go ask the orthopedic docs around here and they will tell you that they are seeing more serious arm injuries in young kids than ever before[/b].
[/quote]

Pitching is an unnatural act. You are going to have injuries regardless of what you do. Almost everyone who has played baseball for a significant amount of time is going to have shoulder damage.

Now I would say the increase of army injures among children is due to a couple of different things. One is they simply don't rest or recover properly. Its fine if you want to play 80+ games a year, but you can't have your star pitcher start a game and then go out and play a position. You have to give your arm time to recover. Two would be throwing breaking pitches wrong. If you don't throw sliders or curveballs properly you are going to get injured. Third would be the pitchers body is just not conditioned enough. Core and leg work are important, but by strengthening the small muscles in the shoulder with workouts you can do at home you will greatly reduce the risk of injury.
[/quote]

When I played, the only people having Tommy John surgery were professional players.  [u][b]Now its common place for kids as young as 13 to get the surgery.[/b][/u]  The amount of arm injuries now is ridiculous compared to just 10 or 15 years ago.  I guess that has nothing to do with increased workload.  ::)

I was a catcher my whole life and have had 3 knee surgeries because of it.  I also have a problem with a kid catching 6 or 7 games in a weekend.  That happens a lot in select especially at younger ages.  Everyone counts pitches but most don't realize the wear and tear on a catchers knees. 

I'm not trying to bash select or say it is bad to play that many games at a young age.  My whole point is to protect your kids.  Your kids future isn't worth some trophy.  Hopefully, your kids coaches are great and are concerned with their health first and foremost.  Just be careful.
[/quote]

I have been around alot of youth baseball for the last 7 years and I have not heard of 1 case of a 13 year old having Tommy John surgery.  To say that it is common is just plain unresponsible and untrue.

[PhatMack19]

I don't really know what unresponsible means, but I have heard of kids as young as 13 getting the surgery.  The rise is high school age kids having Tommy John has increased exponentially.  Some of that has to do with the success rate of the surgery now and the rest is from overuse.  Here is an article that is a few years old that sites sources such as Dr. James Andrews(aka one of the best orthopedic surgeons in the world).  I value their opinions way more than yours.

http://www.chron.com/sports/high-school/article/Tommy-John-surgery-is-rising-among-young-pitchers-1588909.php