The game

[no-look]

is continiously changing....when I was in school 20 turnovers would get you a lot of bleacher running the next day(or after the game)....now it's ok if you have thirty if your opponent has 31....very little clock management at the end of quarters. Very little "one shot" trys.....Where did the mid range jumper go?  Where are the pure shooters? .......these still are practiced in some places and you can usually see them in Austin........ I know, I am  a relic and the game is passing me by... ;D     

[klkctt87]

I think if you got rid of the three point line in junior high and below, you would see more pure shooters and nice mid range jumpers.  Most younger kids are not strong enough to shoot from 3-point range with good form. A lot of them carry that poor form with them into high school.

[stevenash]

[quote name="no-look" post="1160992" timestamp="1326677765"]
is continiously changing....when I was in school 20 turnovers would get you a lot of bleacher running the next day(or after the game)....now it's ok if you have thirty if your opponent has 31....very little clock management at the end of quarters. Very little "one shot" trys.....Where did the mid range jumper go?  Where are the pure shooters? .......these still are practiced in some places and you can usually see them in Austin........ I know, I am  a relic and the game is passing me by... ;D   
[/quote]

Come on, No look.  Get with the new world.  Get into some technology.

[no-look]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1161025" timestamp="1326682878"]
[quote author=no-look link=topic=94331.msg1160992#msg1160992 date=1326677765]
is continiously changing....when I was in school 20 turnovers would get you a lot of bleacher running the next day(or after the game)....now it's ok if you have thirty if your opponent has 31....very little clock management at the end of quarters. Very little "one shot" trys.....Where did the mid range jumper go?  Where are the pure shooters? .......these still are practiced in some places and you can usually see them in Austin........ I know, I am  a relic and the game is passing me by... ;D   
[/quote]

Come on, No look.  Get with the new world.  Get into some technology.
[/quote]I know, I need to embrace technology....my smart phone is smarter than me....

[stevenash]

If you will get the new I phone, it has an assistant named Siri, who will take voice instructions from you.  Who knows, you might possibly be able to have an effect on some shots taken in a game if you are nice to Siri

[BLUEDOVE3]

I,m still looking for the basic two-hand chest pass in a game ;D

[CATMAN]

[quote name="no-look" post="1161040" timestamp="1326684933"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94331.msg1161025#msg1161025 date=1326682878]
[quote author=no-look link=topic=94331.msg1160992#msg1160992 date=1326677765]
is continiously changing....when I was in school 20 turnovers would get you a lot of bleacher running the next day(or after the game)....now it's ok if you have thirty if your opponent has 31....very little clock management at the end of quarters. Very little "one shot" trys.....Where did the mid range jumper go?  Where are the pure shooters? .......these still are practiced in some places and you can usually see them in Austin........ I know, I am  a relic and the game is passing me by... ;D   
[/quote]

Come on, No look.  Get with the new world.  Get into some technology.
[/quote]I know, I need to embrace technology....my smart phone is smarter than me....
[/quote] What a smart phone no-look

[txcan]

No-Look No-Look No-Look....

I'm not quite as old as you (as a matter of fact you probably have kids my age) but I was coached by a man (who threw clip boards in practice because of turnovers (yes i am aware that having a clipboard at practice dates him but how else would he chart turnovers during practice if he didn't have a clipboard))you probably know who has the same view of the game as you do...

Times change, cars now have power steering, TV's come with color pictures, we don't use lead base paint, the gyms that use to have box fans stuck in the walls to pull air through for a breeze are now air-conditioned and turnovers have become what makes our high school basketball game watching experience exciting.  Without turnovers, teams would win by a greater margin and people wouldn't come to games. Turnovers keep games close, unpredictable and suspenceful. 

Turnovers are why I go to games...

No-Look, your G string is tightened a little sharp...

[Guest tigersvoice]

[quote name="txcan" post="1161075" timestamp="1326689871"]
No-Look No-Look No-Look....

I'm not quite as old as you (as a matter of fact you probably have kids my age) but I was coached by a man (who threw clip boards in practice because of turnovers (yes i am aware that having a clipboard at practice dates him but how else would he chart turnovers during practice if he didn't have a clipboard))you probably know who has the same view of the game as you do...

Times change, cars now have power steering, TV's come with color pictures, we don't use lead base paint, the gyms that use to have box fans stuck in the walls to pull air through for a breeze are now air-conditioned and turnovers have become what makes our high school basketball game watching experience exciting.  Without turnovers, teams would win by a greater margin and people wouldn't come to games. Turnovers keep games close, unpredictable and suspenceful. 

Turnovers are why I go to games...

No-Look, your G string is tightened a little sharp...
[/quote]
Some clever stuff there, txcan - but surely turnovers can't be the only reason you go to games. ::)

[no-look]

[quote name="Tigersvoice" post="1161087" timestamp="1326697401"]
[quote author=txcan link=topic=94331.msg1161075#msg1161075 date=1326689871]
No-Look No-Look No-Look....

I'm not quite as old as you (as a matter of fact you probably have kids my age) but I was coached by a man (who threw clip boards in practice because of turnovers (yes i am aware that having a clipboard at practice dates him but how else would he chart turnovers during practice if he didn't have a clipboard))you probably know who has the same view of the game as you do...

Times change, cars now have power steering, TV's come with color pictures, we don't use lead base paint, the gyms that use to have box fans stuck in the walls to pull air through for a breeze are now air-conditioned and turnovers have become what makes our high school basketball game watching experience exciting.  Without turnovers, teams would win by a greater margin and people wouldn't come to games. Turnovers keep games close, unpredictable and suspenceful. 

Turnovers are why I go to games...

No-Look, your G string is tightened a little sharp...
[/quote]
Some clever stuff there, txcan - but surely turnovers can't be the only reason you go to games. ::)
[/quote]No it's not tiger....he also loves the concession stand.  ;D

[east texas bb]

The game has changed, and like all things, some good changes and some bad.  20 turnovers will never be acceptable to me.  We set out goal of 12-15 a game and under and we ran or did wall sits if we went over and we still managed to score high numbers. 
The mid range jumpshot is gone because of the 3 point line (watch the hardwood classics and most of their shots were 15-18 foot, they just shot the open shot and the defense was sagging more, defenses are set up now to guard the 3 point line in), but if kids would work on both they would be very dangerous.  A player that can shoot the 3, mid range jumper, and get to the rim is very tough to guard.  Michael Jordan was good  at all of these. 
I will never understand having alot of TO of missed FT's.  Those are both staples to an effective program IMO. 
Lastly, there was alot of talk the other night about the HJ and Silsbee game and the missed FT's.  While I thought they did play a factor, I thought both teams shot just about as poorly from the line.  The stat that made me scratch my head was HJ only outrebounded Silsbee by 5 rebounds.  I really figured the margin would be much higher in favor of HJ. I think that could have had something to do with the outcome. JST

[txcan]

Dang No-Look >:(, that one hurt :'(...however I guess I deserve it... :-\

Tiger-it is more than turnovers and concessions, it's also to watch No-Look and his clan: 1: yell at the refs, and 2: stand up and hold one finger in the air and shout "ONE SHOT!" at the end of the quarters when our team has the ball....you see, No-Look doesnt just share his opinions on forums, he shares them at games.  ;)

More on turnovers, a good friend of mine (a coach) says "I dont put my self-worth in the hands of 14-17 year old kids" and by this he means that nothing suprises him about kids, they are unpredictable....that is what makes it fun for me, any team any night

[east texas bb]

I agree you cant put your own self-worth with teenagers, I have heard that many times before, you would go insane if you did.  I think of Big Sandy a couple of years back when they would more than likely have went to State but had a couple of kids mess up.  Nothing a coach can do about that, except build on that for the future.  But when you are coaching a team, you are buying in just like the players are buying in.  If you are trying to build a program, every coach out there will tell you basketball is a game of possessions, either by TO's or rebounds, more times than naught the team with more possessions on a consistent basis will be more successful. 
My HS coach put a limit of 10 turnovers, sometimes 8 and we pressed and pushed the ball as much as anyone.
No coach wants to see his team throw the ball away or get it stolen. 

[no-look]

Texcan you know me and my clan are legends dont you? It's just that nobody listens to us.  ;D 

[The Playmaker]

I am new and this is an interesting topic.  I have notice the game is changing because kids spend far less time on the fundamentals and more time on things that result in high turnovers and the loss of the midrange game.

I also feel that in the state of Texas basketball is stressed far less.  The kids get no gym time especially in the junior high program.  I wonder if you were to poll basketball coaches it would be interesting to see how that turns out.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="tokenwb" post="1161015" timestamp="1326681357"]
I think if you got rid of the three point line in junior high and below, you would see more pure shooters and nice mid range jumpers.  Most younger kids are not strong enough to shoot from 3-point range with good form. A lot of them carry that poor form with them into high school.
[/quote]


I wouldn't mind the 3 point shot eliminated from the middle school level.

[txcan]

This could open a can of worms but it goes back to theory:

Are Jr High programs in place to win or teach? I understand it would be great to have both, but if you have to choose, what is your choice?  If you have a stud that can score 25 in a 7th grade game and win 70% of your games by himself but not involve the team, do you let him?

If you say they are to teach, then tell your JH coaches not to let the kids shoot 3's. Isn't it that simple?  8)

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="txcan" post="1161251" timestamp="1326752118"]
This could open a can of worms but it goes back to theory:

Are Jr High programs in place to win or teach? I understand it would be great to have both, but if you have to choose, what is your choice?  If you have a stud that can score 25 in a 7th grade game and win 70% of your games by himself but not involve the team, do you let him?

If you say they are to teach, then tell your JH coaches not to let the kids shoot 3's. Isn't it that simple?  8)
[/quote]Players should be taught b4 middle school level that its a team game. Give your teammates the opportunity to participate, but also know when its time to take over the game. Thats the challenge ;)

[stevenash]

But Dove, what if you believe its time to take over the game but you have a teammate who believes the same thing?

[txcan]

Trust me, if this comes off rude it wasn't ment to be, but pre-middle school basketball (aka little dribblers) is the worse development of teamwork and players.  The parents with the best kids get together and form a team so they can run the table...then there is upwards but I have issues with not keeping score...not sure of the answer....

However I do feel that if a coach is in a community for the long haul they work with all levels, this is how to develope a program...but how often does that happen?

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1161325" timestamp="1326766727"]
But Dove, what if you believe its time to take over the game but you have a teammate who believes the same thing?
[/quote] I would say then let both have it if possible. But in middle school from my experiences, its usually one player. #2The coach's job is to explain each player's role on the team ;)

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="txcan" post="1161326" timestamp="1326767611"]
Trust me, if this comes off rude it wasn't ment to be, but pre-middle school basketball (aka little dribblers) is the worse development of teamwork and players.  The parents with the best kids get together and form a team so they can run the table...then there is upwards but I have issues with not keeping score...not sure of the answer....

However I do feel that if a coach is in a community for the long haul they work with all levels, this is how to develope a program...but how often does that happen?
[/quote]LOL! I remember when I moved to the area and first heard the term  'Little Dribblers."  I always pictured these little bitty kids (in diapers) playing basketball. But back to the statement. I never experienced parents getting together to form the best teams unless you're referring to selection of all-star game.

[asary]

[quote name="txcan" post="1161326" timestamp="1326767611"]
Trust me, if this comes off rude it wasn't ment to be, but pre-middle school basketball (aka little dribblers) is the worse development of teamwork and players.  The parents with the best kids get together and form a team so they can run the table...then there is upwards but I have issues with not keeping score...not sure of the answer....

[b]However I do feel that if a coach is in a community for the long haul they work with all levels, this is how to develope a program...but how often does that happen?[/b]
[/quote]

Little dribblers has played a big part in the developmental program which Coach E has implemented in Nederland. Our varsity group now is made up of many of the boys who played in Little dribblers the 1st year it began in Nederland.  Little dribblers can be a great asset if organized and ran with the bigger picture in mind.

[east texas bb]

txcan, you make a very valid point.  The actual best approach for youth age IMO is the PDBL (Playmakers Developmental Basketball League) by Brian McCormick who has teaching days(skill days) and when the kids do play a game, they play 3 on 3.  Kids in a 3 on 3 game receive almost double the amount of touches according to research.  There are things I dont like about his program but overall it is the best I have seen for the true development of youth.  I would mix 5 on 5 with 3 on 3 and the mixture would be more 5 on 5 as they get older. 
Little Dribblers could be a lot more effective by implementing a few rules.  These are the ones I would change or add.  1. No zone defense for 12 years old and down.  2. No double teaming the basketball or "ball chasing" would not be allowed unless a player was penetrating to the basket.  So when a player crosses HC, you cant send 2 to chase them down.  3. Some leagues do draft incorrectlly IMO allowing 2 or more coaches to get together and then getting the best kid that is not a coaches kid. 4.  I would not allow offensive plays for 12 or under, they need to learn spacing and then they can learn a play, I have never seen a 5-12 year old remember how to run an offense. 5.  Every 3rd time down the court, I would make it a rule that a different person has to bring the ball down the court. 
You have to have parents involved in the Youth program, or you will not have a youth program, but the parents could be more educated and the coach should approach these people and help them.  The coach of the community could go to the local youth board and give them an overall idea and even some drills and practice plans.  The youth programs are not killed in games as much as they are in practice, I see too many youth practices where the following happen and they kill a kids chance to get better.  1.  You see 1 basketball and 8-10 kids doing a drill with 1 active kid and 8 not doing anything.  All the kids need a ball in their hands for 70-80 percent of the time and doing drills where they are active and not waiting in line.  You also see coaches talking to much and the kids standing around when the coach thinks they are listening but they arent, their attention span is not able to stay on task fo long.  But, If you see a HS coach come in, and are working with and has influence with the youth, all the way to HS, eventually you will have a winning program.  This is a rarity. 
The focus should be 3 fold IMO:  Kids having fun, Kids Learning, and Kids learning to win, and in that order. (I have the same reservations you have with Upwards).  Kids need to learn that it is a good thing to win. The emphasis on winning should grow with the kids. 
JMO

[no-look]

I've seen little dribblers coaches that didn't know anything about the game. Sometimes because there was nobody else to coach and they would "fill in". Kids not being taught anything which is probally worse than not playing....a good LD program worked right is a valuable tool for developing future programs....etbb, thats a good plan, have fun, learn and learn to win....