Ned gets road win at Vidor-Article PA News

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166097" timestamp="1327552587"]
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[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906]
Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure.

The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been
those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different.
[/quote]
[b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him
there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very
good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)

I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players.

[/quote]
[/quote]
Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...George Williamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were
SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::)
[/quote]
Anyone would rather go deeper in the playoffs, no doubt. But playoffs are all about match ups, right? Vidor ran into a team who they didn't match up very well against, and still almost won. The fact remains that Vidor won all 3 meetings against Ozen that year, end of story.

[stevenash]

And the point you are missing is that several people within this thread disagree with your contention that the mere presence of Coach Boutte would alter the accomplishments of Nederland over the last 18 months.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166204" timestamp="1327589036"]
Pt. Arthur Lincoln was going to continue to do relatively well if they had hired someone other than Boutte as the next coach.  And yes, when I say basketball factory, I am referring to where that particular sport has the highest degree of interest from within the student body.  Definitely a fact at both Lincoln and Ozen.  Hardin Jefferson won mutliple state championships in golf and with a different coach most of the time.  They excelled because the kids in that area grew up on a golf course thus making their environment conducive to golf success just as the Lincoln/Ozen environments lend themselves to basketball success. With all due respect to Coach Boutte, I am very confident that the Nederland record last year and this year would be unchanged if Mr. Boutte was the Ozen coach.  I will ask you ONE MORE TIME- Would Phil Jacksons success have been lessened if Red Auerbach had hung around and coached longer?
[/quote]
Steve, thats quite possible, but does the fact that they MAY have had success with any other coach diminish what Boutte DID do at Lincoln? As far as Nederland being dominant in 20-4A if Boutte stayed...I have to STRONGLY yet, respectfully disagree with you...You cannot tell me that the Ozen program would have slipped as far as it has with Boutte at the helm! You don't believe that, do you? That Ozen team would look TOTALLY different...Not speaking as much as faces, but schemes and know how on the floor...Come on, you HAVE to know that....To answer your question, I do NOT think Red Auerbach's presence would have affected Phil Jackson's success, but we are talking about PROS...apples and bananas!!  8)....I DO know that Andre Boutte on the Ozen sideline would have affected Nederlands success over the last 2-3 years.. ;)....27 district wins in a row? not a chance...

[Guest speechless]

Are you seriously comparing Nederland to Ozen?  Seriously?  When it comes to available talent?  When it comes to developing talent?  Seriously?

I don't care when Ozen opened...they were gonna have an advantage from the "get go" due to the number of people they were pulling from.  What is the population of Beaumont versus Nederland?  Not only that but, upon the opening of Ozen there was no fighting other sports.  English has not only developed his program but, had to battle things that a basketball coach at Ozen would never have to battle.

Ask any basketball coach in the state what job they would have rather had the year Ozen opened....Nederland or Ozen and 99.9% of coaches would take the Ozen job.

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166206" timestamp="1327589145"]
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[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166129#msg1166129 date=1327577200]
Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte,
if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program
would continue to flourish.
[/quote]

You are correct, we will never know the answer to those questions. I DO know that there is a VERY short list of coaches that could do what Brian English has done at Vidor, and Nederland, and an even SHORTER list that could duplicate what Boutte has done. Stevenash, the ONLY difference
between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING
TITLES....No one as close as HOUSTON knew anything about Ozen prior to the 2000 school year, and a year later we were 36-0, Class 4A State Champions.  How can people continue to downplay THAT? These are the FACTS.  Coach K is an incredible coach, and Duke is the standard because of continued success on the court by winning TITLES.  Syracuse was always a respected program, but until they won a title in 2003, they were not really considered to be ELITE. Ozen was an ELITE program when Boutte was there...not so much now...Nederland has the best coach
on the sideline every contest in 20-4A now, by far...Nederland is not an ELITE program...They are very good, and yes building takes time...But
[b]one coach took a new program in year THREE to the region 3 tournament,[/b] and the next year was nationally ranked and went undefeated winning a state title, and in the next 5 years played in 3 more state championship games...How is THAT not the standard of excellence in SE Texas? Because people feel we had "talent"? Thats not fair...we had an NBA bound player, yes we did...and THREE Division 1 players in 10 years...TALENT? I say an ELITE PROGRAM was built....once again, how is that NOT the standard in SE Texas?
[/quote]
Interesting! Didn't Coach E take Nederland to the Regional Tourney in year 4 after taking over the worst team in 20-4A for 4-5 years?

Now he has lost that entire team, which had 0 NBA players on it BTW, and they haven't missed a beat this year. Ned has a very young team, and COULD make it back to the Region 3 Tourney this year. With 4 returning starters next year, it could be the year Ned earns a trip to
Austin! I guess that will be a good gauge for this conversation. I was taught that when you dream, dream big! And it's obvious that Coach E feels the same...
[/quote]
OK..its obvious you're missing me all the way around here....I NEVER SAID WHAT COACH E WAS DOING WAS NOT GREAT....He is definitely getting it done...NO QUESTION.  I AM saying, however....In Year FOUR, Boutte went 36-0 winning a state title...Perk was DEVELOPED into an NBA talent, he did not come to us that way. Yes Coach E went to the regional tourney in year 4 after taking over [color=red]that program[/color]...[color=green]OZEN DID NOT EXIST[/color], AND WENT TO AUSTIN AND WON IT IN YEAR 4...How are you missing THAT point?
[/quote]
I got your point, DV. But remember what this topic is about; would Ned still have a 27 game district winning streak, and all fingers, IMO, point to YES!
[color=red]What program?[/color]
[color=green]But the talent existed, right?[/color]

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166209" timestamp="1327589620"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166097#msg1166097 date=1327552587]
[quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166096#msg1166096 date=1327552339]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906]
Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure.

The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been
those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different.
[/quote]
[b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him
there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very
good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)

I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players.

[/quote]
[/quote]
Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...George Williamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were
SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::)
[/quote]
Anyone would rather go deeper in the playoffs, no doubt. But playoffs are all about match ups, right? Vidor ran into a team who they didn't match up very well against, and still almost won. The fact remains that Vidor won all 3 meetings against Ozen that year, end of story.
[/quote]
NB, Vidor was not BLOWING Ozen out that year!! 2 of the 3 games went OT! AND OZEN WON THE DISTRICT, AND WENT FURTHER IN THE PLAYOFFS! How can you NOT acknowledge those facts?  :o

[quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166212#msg1166212 date=1327589861]
Are you seriously comparing Nederland to Ozen?  Seriously?  When it comes to available talent?  When it comes to developing talent?  Seriously?

I don't care when Ozen opened...they were gonna have an advantage from the "get go" due to the number of people they were pulling from.  What is the population of Beaumont versus Nederland?  Not only that but, upon the opening of Ozen there was no fighting other sports.  English has not only developed his program but, had to battle things that a basketball coach at Ozen would never have to battle.

Ask any basketball coach in the state what job they would have rather had the year Ozen opened....Nederland or Ozen and 99.9% of coaches would take the Ozen job.
[/quote]

Advantage? How about TODAY? Does that "advantage" still exist? More kids? Is Nederland not a 4A program, just like Ozen? That means student populations are similar.. ::)...Listen, I THINK COACH ENGLISH IS A FANTASTIC COACH....HE HAS DONE A PHENOMENAL JOB IN NEDERLAND...You guys cannot continue to downplay what Boutte accomplished because you guys THINK that Ozen was overflowing with kids that come out of the womb with a basketball in their hands!! Thats just not the case...And it should be OBVIOUS watching them the last two seasons.

[stevenash]

I get what you are saying.  You can talk about "schemes" and "approaches" all day long but if the players arent there, the coach cannot, in my opinion, have the impact that you think they can.  You are telling me that Phil would have done what he did whether Red was coaching or not but are telling me 100% opposite in the Nederland/Ozen case.  When you began all of this, you requested that somebody TRY to be unbiased and for you.  I think in this case the ability to be unbiased is very understandably impossible for you.  Pat Knight is getting considerably more out of virtually the same team that Lamar had before he got here, but he hasnt made them a world beater  and I feel like Mr. Knights basketball pedigree is every bit as good as Mr. Bouttes.  NOBODY suggested basketball players at Ozen came out of the womb.  I made the analogy to golf success at Hj and you simply can't disprove said analogy.

[Guest speechless]

Ozen pulls from Beaumont

Nederland pulls from Nederland


Yes, Beaumont has an advantage regardless of how many schools there are...

No one is trying to diminish anything Boutte has done.  Boutte is a HOF'er.  YOU are the one who created a hypothetical that, in fact, if anything, tried to diminish what Nederland is doing by playing the "what if" game.

Some schools are blessed with more talent, more students, and better athletic set ups than others.  Is that the coach's fault?  No.  Is it an advantage to that coach?  Yes.

Ozen has more natural God given ability, more students to choose from, and a better athletic set up than what Nederland has or had.  There ain't no changing that fact.

[Bigdog]

Let's get back on topic here.

DV,  I think there is something that you are not taking into consideration and that is that Ozens attendance level has fallen quite a bit since they opened and also transfers to the other Beaumont schools.  So if Boutte came back the talent pool would be smaller.  Not saying it would be less talented players, just a smaller pool to choose from.

[Honest Abe]

Who cares what the score was? Have you ever seen any of Coach E's team's blow many people out? Just not his style. Could have scored 100 on Vidor Tuesday, but called off the 'Dawgs'! Last time I checked, a W is a W.
Ok, fine. Not a lot of talent in Ozen the past 2 seasons. Say what you want, but are you seriously telling me that Nederland is overflowing with talent? Did you see Smith and Cunningham and the PG from last year when they were Freshman?
And I NEVER downplayed what Boutte accomplished, it was phenomenal. But it doesn't mean that Nederland's win streak would still not be sitting at 27 today if Boutte were still the coach! You admitted that the 2004 team AND the past 2 Ozen team's were not full of talent. Vidor beat Ozen when they had 'less talent', and Ned also beat Ozen with 'less talent'.

Now IF, IF a player like Perk was on those team's, I would say, you're right, Ned would not be on a 27 game win streak. But you admitted that Ozen was 'down' the past 2 seasons, and Coach E beat Ozen in 2004 3
times in one season with a 'down' team. So since Ozen has been 'down' the past 2 years, I don't think it would have made a difference if Boutte was the coach or not.

[Guest tigersvoice]

[quote name="bigdog" post="1166225" timestamp="1327591065"]
Let's get back on topic here.

DV,  I think there is something that you are not taking into consideration and that is that Ozens attendance level has fallen quite a bit since they opened and also transfers to the other Beaumont schools.  So if Boutte came back the talent pool would be smaller.  Not saying it would be less talented players, just a smaller pool to choose from.
[/quote]
As I understand the structure, Ozen is a magnet school.  Students throughout the district can choose to attend Ozen as long as they provide their own transportation.  If Boutte were to come back to Ozen (which in my opinion
will not happen) don't you think that the enrollment would increase and his talent pool would be as broad as before?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166220" timestamp="1327590655"]
I get what you are saying.  You can talk about "schemes" and "approaches" all day long but if the players arent there, the coach cannot, in my opinion, have the impact that you think they can.  You are telling me that Phil would have done what he did whether Red was coaching or not but are telling me 100% opposite in the Nederland/Ozen case.  When you began all of this, you requested that somebody TRY to be unbiased and for you.  I think in this case the ability to be unbiased is very understandably impossible for you.  Pat Knight is getting considerably more out of virtually the same team that Lamar had before he got here, but he hasnt made them a world beater  and I feel like Mr. Knights basketball pedigree is every bit as good as Mr. Bouttes.  NOBODY suggested basketball players at Ozen came out of the womb.  I made the analogy to golf success at Hj and you simply can't disprove said analogy.
[/quote]
Well.....wait a minute....You guys are all claiming that "Coach E is winning with NO TALENT"....So HE can do it and Boutte can't? Oh, but he has...Refer back to the 2007 season...OZEN PLAYED IN THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME...THAT team was no more talented than this 2012 outfit!! Nederland fans are excited about a winning streak that has been done for THREE TIMES AS LONG by Ozen and PA Lincoln...No big deal... EXPLAIN, please.... ::)...what makes it such an AMAZING ACCOMPLISHMENT NOW? Not taking away from it, because its a good thing, but its been done, with less fanfare on Fannett Rd. in Beaumont.... 8)

[quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166222#msg1166222 date=1327590847]
Ozen pulls from Beaumont

Nederland pulls from Nederland


Yes, Beaumont has an advantage regardless of how many schools there are...

No one is trying to diminish anything Boutte has done.  Boutte is a HOF'er.  YOU are the one who created a hypothetical that, in fact, if anything, tried to diminish what Nederland is doing by playing the "what if" game.

Some schools are blessed with more talent, more students, and better athletic set ups than others.  Is that the coach's fault?  No.  Is it an advantage to that coach?  Yes.

Ozen has more natural God given ability, more students to choose from, and a better athletic set up than what Nederland has or had.  There ain't no changing that fact.
[/quote]

Blessed with more talent? Where is it now? Did it disappear? I respectfully disagree with that point....I was simply stating that the advantage that Nederland has now, is Coach E...I think that giving credit where its due.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166228" timestamp="1327591292"]
Who cares what the score was? Have you ever seen any of Coach E's team's blow many people out? Just not his style. Could have scored 100 on Vidor Tuesday, but called off the 'Dawgs'! Last time I checked, a W is a W.
Ok, fine. Not a lot of talent in Ozen the past 2 seasons. Say what you want, but are you seriously telling me that Nederland is overflowing with talent? Did you see Smith and Cunningham and the PG from last year when they were Freshman?
And I NEVER downplayed what Boutte accomplished, it was phenomenal. But it doesn't mean that Nederland's win streak would still not be sitting at 27 today if Boutte were still the coach! You admitted that the 2004 team AND the past 2 Ozen team's were not full of talent. Vidor beat Ozen when they had 'less talent', and Ned also beat Ozen with 'less talent'.

Now IF, IF a player like Perk was on those team's, I would say, you're right, Ned would not be on a 27 game win streak. But you admitted that Ozen was 'down' the past 2 seasons, and Coach E beat Ozen in 2004 3
times in one season with a 'down' team. So since Ozen has been 'down' the past 2 years, I don't think it would have made a difference if Boutte was the coach or not.
[/quote]
WAIT...Ozen is MORE talented, top to bottom, than Nederland RIGHT NOW..So is Central...which makes what Coach E is doing MORE impressive...I never said they had NO talent over there now, but what are they doing now in comparison to past years...There is a COMMON DENOMINATOR as to why Ozen is not the same...Isn't it obvious?

[JS]

With or without the disagreement here Nederland is having a fantastic run------congrats to them

[Guest speechless]

So you are telling me if you took all the raw, uncoached talent in Beaumont and put it up against Nederland....Nederland would have the advantage?


Speaking of diminishing accomplishments:

[quote] Not taking away from it, because its a good thing, but its been done, with less fanfare on Fannett Rd. in Beaumont....[/quote]

And at the same time....this proves the point....it was done with less fan fare because it was expected......it was not expected at Nederland.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="speechless" post="1166240" timestamp="1327592030"]
So you are telling me if you took all the raw, uncoached talent in Beaumont and put it up against Nederland....Nederland would have the advantage?


Speaking of diminishing accomplishments:

[quote] Not taking away from it, because its a good thing, but its been done, with less fanfare on Fannett Rd. in Beaumont....[/quote]

And at the same time....this proves the point....it was done with less fan fare because it was expected......it was not expected at Nederland.
[/quote]
Well, when you become a fixture at the state tournament and become nationally ranked, district titles kind of loses its luster... ::)

[Guest speechless]

and why were they a fixture at the state tournament and why has Nederland not been a fixture at the state tournament?

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166241" timestamp="1327592221"]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166240#msg1166240 date=1327592030]
So you are telling me if you took all the raw, uncoached talent in Beaumont and put it up against Nederland....Nederland would have the advantage?


Speaking of diminishing accomplishments:

[quote] Not taking away from it, because its a good thing, but its been done, with less fanfare on Fannett Rd. in Beaumont....[/quote]

And at the same time....this proves the point....it was done with less fan fare because it was expected......it was not expected at Nederland.
[/quote]
Well, when you become a fixture at the state tournament and become nationally ranked, district titles kind of loses its luster... ::)
[/quote] :D :D

[Bigdog]

We are way off topic.  Ned-Vidor Game!!

[team first]

What Boutte did is 07, was a great job.

Now back to 04, ozen was easily the better team in my opinion.
George w was never going to byu, byu so him one game and said thanks but
No thanks , Jake m, went d11, d1 told him tks but no tks.

Ozen Ballard played at st marys, peanut b, played Lamar pa, same as
George, and then Joe lamb went juco.

So to say vidor was better, one could easily look at lay-ups lines to see who had more talent.
And central only beat vidor once that year.
Equal talent english will x and o Boutte to death

[BLUEDOVE3]

Dang! Where I'm from those are strong statements. Boutte needs to come out of retirement for a year or two ;D

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="team first" post="1166245" timestamp="1327592445"]
What Boutte did is 07, was a great job.

Now back to 04, ozen was easily the better team in my opinion.
George w was never going to byu, byu so him one game and said thanks but
No thanks , Jake m, went d11, d1 told him tks but no tks.

Ozen Ballard played at st marys, peanut b, played Lamar pa, same as
George, and then Joe lamb went juco.

So to say vidor was better, one could easily look at lay-ups lines to see who had more talent.
And central only beat vidor once that year.
Equal talent english will x and o Boutte to death
[/quote]

You call what he did in 2007 a GREAT JOB? That was a dang MIRACLE!! :D...x and o to death? 3 wins out of 25+ contests head to head? are you a betting man, team first?  8)...Vidor lost THREE district games that year in 2004...came in 2nd in district...That Vidor team was very good, say what you will, they had some talent...I think this debate is not about Boutte vs English...It was supposed to be a question about WHY Nederland was able to get a choke hold on district 20-4A the way that they have...If Boutte is still at Ozen, that doesn't happen...Thats just it.  8)

[stevenash]

Dove- I can't believe you waited that long to get in on this.  I will, of course, be unable to confirm your contention.  When the talent pool is down, there is only so much a guy can do.  As I said earlier, Pat Knight is getting quite a bit more out of the Lamar team than his predecessor with essentially the same players but Lamar is hardly dominating the conference.  I can assure you that the presence of Bill Belicek as head coach of the HJ football team would NOT, under any circumstance, propel them to district champs.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1166246" timestamp="1327592704"]
Dang! Where I'm from those are strong statements. Boutte needs to come out of retirement for a year or two ;D
[/quote]

Then it will be some OTHER reason if he does and runs this area....again! 8)....He likes his cush office and polo shirts and slacks too much to give it up now!! ;D...BUT...You never know... ;)

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="team first" post="1166245" timestamp="1327592445"]
What Boutte did is 07, was a great job.

Now back to 04, ozen was easily the better team in my opinion.
George w was never going to byu, byu so him one game and said thanks but
No thanks , Jake m, went d11, d1 told him tks but no tks.

Ozen Ballard played at st marys, peanut b, played Lamar pa, same as
George, and then Joe lamb went juco.
So to say vidor was better, one could easily look at lay-ups lines to see who had more talent.
And central only beat vidor once that year.
Equal talent english will x and o Boutte to death
[/quote]
Can't argue with FACTS DV! I posted 3 statements regarding these FACTS about Vidor's talent pool, but u have yet to acknowledge the FACTS I provided.