Ned gets road win at Vidor-Article PA News

[asary]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166095" timestamp="1327552026"]
[quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166094#msg1166094 date=1327551746]
Man, I guess since Nederland hasn't lost a district game in REALITY, some are now predicting how they might lose in THEORY.  :o. Fact of the matter is Nederland hasn't lost a district game in 27 outings. Yes, at some point they will lose, but it certainly wont be the end of Nederlands domination in 20 4A. Just curious, has any other 20 4A team/coach had such a record?
[/quote]
Uhhh YES!!...Ozen at one point had a 58 game district streak going from 1999-2004 and it was snapped by VIDOR IN 2004! ::)....27? Come on man, that was EASY for Ozen then!  8)
[/quote]

Yeah, it was easy for Ozen THEN  ;D :o. Things are a little different now  ;)

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="5 on 5" post="1166098" timestamp="1327552671"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166095#msg1166095 date=1327552026]
[quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166094#msg1166094 date=1327551746]
Man, I guess since Nederland hasn't lost a district game in REALITY, some are now predicting how they might lose in THEORY.  :o. Fact of the matter is Nederland hasn't lost a district game in 27 outings. Yes, at some point they will lose, but it certainly wont be the end of Nederlands domination in 20 4A. Just curious, has any other 20 4A team/coach had such a record?
[/quote]
Uhhh YES!!...Ozen at one point had a 58 game district streak going from 1999-2004 and it was snapped by VIDOR IN 2004! ::)....27? Come on man, that was EASY for Ozen then!  8)
[/quote]

Yeah, it was easy for Ozen THEN  ;D :o. Things are a little different now  ;)
[/quote]
Well, the exact same coach that we are discussing did the SAME thing at PA Lincoln by winning consecutive district games from 1990-1997...NOT ONE DISTRICT LOSS....Coincidence? NOPE.... 8)

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166093" timestamp="1327551708"]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906]
Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure.

The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of
players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different.
[/quote]
Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE
TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)
[/quote]
We all have our opinions Dickie V, and I gave you mine. Coach E grew the Vidor program from a 50 + year bottom dweller to a playoff team, and beat the best team in SETX 3 times in one year. They went to the playoffs 3 times during his 6 years there, and they haven't been back since.
Nederland was also a bottom dweller every year but two (1987 & 1993) since 1955. Guess what? One of those years, coach English was a player for the Dawgs. It's funny how people commented over the past 2 years that the only reason Ned was any good was bc of PA transfers. Funny, bc when I look at the rosters over the past 8-10 years, there were 2-5 PA transfers every year, yet Ned was still no good.

You bring up that the Vidor team was 'stacked' and full of Seniors?! I wonder why they were 'stacked'? Did the talent suddenly dissolve after English left? No! Bc it was never
there! He developed the kids into 'talent'. Your second excuse is that team was full of Seniors. Is that the case this year for Nederland? NO! Ned has one senior who plays. Coach E has yet to coach a D1 player, yet he finds a way for his team's to win. He's proven he can beat Boutte even with a less talented team, so why should I believe that the streak would be broken if Boutte were still coaching at Ozen?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166102" timestamp="1327553033"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906]
Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure.

The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of
players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different.
[/quote]
Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE
TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)
[/quote]
We all have our opinions Dickie V, and I gave you mine. Coach E grew the Vidor program from a 50 + year bottom dweller to a playoff team, and beat the best team in SETX 3 times in one year. They went to the playoffs 3 times during his 6 years there, and they haven't been back since.
Nederland was also a bottom dweller every year but two (1987 & 1993) since 1955. Guess what? One of those years, coach English was a player for the Dawgs. It's funny how people commented over the past 2 years that the only reason Ned was any good was bc of PA transfers. Funny, bc when I look at the rosters over the past 8-10 years, there were 2-5 PA transfers every year, yet Ned was still no good.

You bring up that the Vidor team was 'stacked' and full of Seniors?! I wonder why they were 'stacked'? Did the talent suddenly dissolve after English left? No! Bc it was never
there! He developed the kids into 'talent'. Your second excuse is that team was full of Seniors. Is that the case this year for Nederland? NO! Ned has one senior who plays. Coach E has yet to coach a D1 player, yet he finds a way for his team's to win. He's proven he can beat Boutte even with a less talented team, so why should I believe that the streak would be broken if Boutte were still coaching at Ozen?
[/quote]
It's just common knowledge, man...Have you noticed that I RECOGNIZE the fact that English is an OUTSTANDING coach? I KNOW what he has done in Vidor and now at Nederland..MY point is that Boutte did the EXACT SAME THING AND THEN SOME!! Thats all...Ozen had to be BUILT! PA LINCOLN had to be MAINTAINED...He did BOTH...AND WON THE BIG ONE MULTIPLE TIMES...You cannot compare what English has accomplished to Boutte...Its not fair to COACH ENGLISH! Even when Vidor was CLEARLY BETTER in 2004 talentwise, and with a senior team, who WON THE DISTRICT? WHO ADVANCED FURTHER IN THE PLAYOFFS? IN A "DOWN YEAR"!  OZEN did....YES Brian revived a cellar dwellar in Vidor, because my guy can coach!! Boutte won a state title in year FOUR going 36-0, of a brand new school...Its a bit different....Doesn't change what English is doing at Nederland, it just puts it into perspective.

[asary]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166097" timestamp="1327552587"]
[quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166096#msg1166096 date=1327552339]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906]
Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure.
The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different.
[/quote]
[b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)
I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players.
[/quote][/quote]Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...GeorgeWilliamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7[b]...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::)[/b][/quote]

I would rather have the PRESENT DAY 27-0 winning streak  ;)

I

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="5 on 5" post="1166107" timestamp="1327554918"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166097#msg1166097 date=1327552587]
[quote author=5 on 5 link=topic=94873.msg1166096#msg1166096 date=1327552339]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166093#msg1166093 date=1327551708]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166089#msg1166089 date=1327550906]
Sorry i'm just getting back to you, but yes I do believe we would still be sitting on a 27 game district winning streak. Is it possible that it would be different with a Boutte-lead team? Sure.
The reason being is that Coach English's team at Vidor defeated Boutte's Ozen Panthers 3 times in one season. Let me repeat that again, AT VIDOR! As y'all mentioned, it may be different if there was a Perkins, Jackson, or BJ Tyler on a team. But there hasn't been those types of players in 20-4A in the past 3 years that this streak has been going. Boutte's talent (that year I mentioned) was comparable to what has been available in Beaumont the past few years. So yes, I believe nothing would be different.
[/quote]
[b]Vidor had a SENIOR team that year, and some real studs[/b]...Ozen had one senior on that team that they beat in 2004 which was the year after Perk entered the NBA and Ozen was considered "down" They were STILL DISTRICT CHAMPIONS with an overall record of 29-7...Lost in the regional tournament that year to eventual champion Houston Jones led by Daniel Gibson...Vidor lost in the second round that year, but THEY BEAT OZEN THREE TIMES, right? You wanna count the record head to head? Like 22-3! Come on man, be honest...I KNOW you don't think they would have a choke hold on 20-4A like this with him there! Not even CLOSE...again, they would still be very good, but a 27 game district streak? NO...Try that one again, NB-Dawg!! 8)
I don't remember any "real studs". What I remember is that team winning with discipline and fundamentals. Things coach E is excellent instilling in his players.
[/quote][/quote]Jake McWilliams was a STUD! 6'8 inside out monster that was DOMINANT...GeorgeWilliamson (committed to BYU) was legit as well...They were very good! and were SENIORS...and WELL COACHED...They did what they were supposed to do! BUT....Ozen won the district title that year and advanced further in the playoffs making the regional tourney in a "down year" finishing 29-7[b]...which would YOU rather have?..... ::) ::)[/b][/quote]

I would rather have the PRESENT DAY 27-0 winning streak  ;)

I

[/quote]
Thats outstanding...as long as winning a DISTRICT title is your ultimate goal... ::) ::).... ;)

[team first]

The real question is who would win with equal talent?
IMO English.
His vidor team was not as good as Boutte ozen team, the year English swept him 3-0

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="team first" post="1166110" timestamp="1327555571"]
The real question is who would win with equal talent?
IMO English.
His vidor team was not as good as Boutte ozen team, the year English swept him 3-0
[/quote]
That is SO not true...George Williamson was headed to BYU, and Jake was a D-1 recruit as well...Ozen had a group of YOUNG UNDERCLASSMEN and ONE SENIOR who DID NOT START in 2004, which you guys love to base your argument...Vidor LOST to Central TWICE that season, so does that mean that Coach Rice was "better" than English? and once again...WHO WON THE DISTRICT AND ADVANCED FURTHER IN THE PLAYOFFS? OZEN....Your opinion matters and is respected..Men lie, women lie, NUMBERS DON'T....9 State Final Fours, 3 State Titles, 17 District Titles, 12 Regional tournament appearances.....Versus 2 district titles and 1 regional tourney appearance? Listen, its not even comparable...Coach English is the best coach in 4A/5A in the area, BY FAR, and one of the top 2 in the area period, with the other being Sutherland..You CANNOT hold his body of work up next to Boutte's because of 3 victories out of 25+ meetings...You just can't...its not fair to Coach English to do that. Now, Coach E is a personal friend of mine, and because of all this chatter, I am not going to get my VIP seat at the PNG game this Friday night, nor will he let me in his office for our pre game chat...THANKS A LOT GUYS!!  ;D ;D

[stevenash]

Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte, if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program would continue to flourish.

[Honest Abe]

Regardless of what you believe in this hypothetical, there is one fact that needs to be corrected, and I said this before. Coach English has NEVER coached a player who went on to play at the D1 level. So to say that his Vidor team was more 'talented' is plain silly. Another fact that needs to be known, is that George was a Junior that year, and Noah was the PG who was a Sophomore. So the team was not loaded with Senior talent as earlier stated. So Vidor started 3 Seniors, 1 JR, and 1 Soph that year.

[BMTSoulja1]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166054" timestamp="1327545756"]
[quote author=dogs1218 link=topic=94873.msg1166049#msg1166049 date=1327545213]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166043#msg1166043 date=1327544487]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1165817#msg1165817 date=1327515095]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=94873.msg1165814#msg1165814 date=1327514850]
[quote author=DogFan3 link=topic=94873.msg1165790#msg1165790 date=1327510717]
LOL in trouble??? really?? They always get fired up for bigger games!!
[/quote]We will see.
[/quote]
::)

Yes we will! ;D
27 in a row, and still those in doubt, Love it! These kids thrive in big games, and they will continue doing so!
[/quote]
27 in a row is a great feat...congratulations....Quick question, and please give me a non biased answer, NB-Dawg....would Nederland be on a 27 game winning streak if Boutte would have stayed at Ozen? Just think about it and TRY to be non-biased with your answer.
[/quote]

Quite possibly.. But no offense to Ozen, they dont have the talent like they used to when he was coaching
[/quote]
Thats not entirely true...the 2007 team that he took to the state championship game was about like this team this year...They were not that big, they had a really good scoring guard in Kris Richards, and a servicable PG alongside him...a 6'4 post in Stephen Moten....nothing spectacular..District Champs, Region III champs..State Finalist...I will say this....THERE IS NO WAY THIS STREAK IS ANYWHERE NEAR 7 GAMES LET ALONE 27 IF BOUTTE WAS STILL AT OZEN...Not saying that Nederland would not have had success still, because I believe that they would have...playoff runs and all...but winning district like they have? NO WAY...
[/quote]Very great point.  I've seen that team with my very eyes.  That team was not that big and not that talented. Probably the least talented team that Boutte ever put together.  That team evolved in the playoffs and marched to state.  i can remember saying to a friend, there is no way THAT team made it to the tournement.  I was in utter disbelief.  From that day forward, I had a new found respect for Coach Boutte.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166129" timestamp="1327577200"]
Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte, if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program would continue to flourish.
[/quote]

You are correct, we will never know the answer to those questions. I DO know that there is a VERY short list of coaches that could do what Brian English has done at Vidor, and Nederland, and an even SHORTER list that could duplicate what Boutte has done. Stevenash, the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES....No one as close as HOUSTON knew anything about Ozen prior to the 2000 school year, and a year later we were 36-0, Class 4A State Champions.  How can people continue to downplay THAT? These are the FACTS.  Coach K is an incredible coach, and Duke is the standard because of continued success on the court by winning TITLES.  Syracuse was always a respected program, but until they won a title in 2003, they were not really considered to be ELITE. Ozen was an ELITE program when Boutte was there...not so much now...Nederland has the best coach on the sideline every contest in 20-4A now, by far...Nederland is not an ELITE program...They are very good, and yes building takes time...But one coach took a new program in year THREE to the region 3 tournament, and the next year was nationally ranked and went undefeated winning a state title, and in the next 5 years played in 3 more state championship games...How is THAT not the standard of excellence in SE Texas? Because people feel we had "talent"? Thats not fair...we had an NBA bound player, yes we did...and THREE Division 1 players in 10 years...TALENT? I say an ELITE PROGRAM was built....once again, how is that NOT the standard in SE Texas?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166133" timestamp="1327581107"]
Regardless of what you believe in this hypothetical, there is one fact that needs to be corrected, and I said this before. Coach English has NEVER coached a player who went on to play at the D1 level. So to say that his Vidor team was more 'talented' is plain silly. Another fact that needs to be known, is that George was a Junior that year, and Noah was the PG who was a Sophomore. So the team was not loaded with Senior talent as earlier stated. So Vidor started 3 Seniors, 1 JR, and 1 Soph that year.
[/quote]
NB-Dawg, VIDOR WAS MORE TALENTED THAN OZEN IN 2004...They were BIGGER...They were OLDER...Half of those kids on that 2004 Ozen team would have been JV players in MOST SEASONS...They went 29-7, WON THE DISTRICT OUTRIGHT, and went on to lose the eventual state champion in the regional tourney...I think THAT fact has to be THE ANSWER...You can't asterik Ozen's accomplishments by claiming "talent"....IT WAS COACHING...CLEARLY.

[stevenash]

Dickie- Are you unwilling to acknowledge (and it is a fact whether you are willing or not) that Mr. Boutte coached at virtual basketball factories?  Nobody knew anything about Ozen because it was a new school and once again, you have to admit that the attendance policies for Ozen were not what they were for the other schools in the area.  I am simply saying that there is nothing that Coach Boutte "knows" that Mr. English does not "know".  Funny that you never responded to my question where I asked if Red Auerbach had hung around and coached longer, would that have had any impact on Phil Jacksons success? (Because your are implying the very same on another level)

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1166178" timestamp="1327586738"]
Dickie- Are you unwilling to acknowledge (and it is a fact whether you are willing or not) that Mr. Boutte coached at virtual basketball factories?  Nobody knew anything about Ozen because it was a new school and once again, you have to admit that the attendance policies for Ozen were not what they were for the other schools in the area.  I am simply saying that there is nothing that Coach Boutte "knows" that Mr. English does not "know".  Funny that you never responded to my question where I asked if Red Auerbach had hung around and coached longer, would that have had any impact on Phil Jacksons success? (Because your are implying the very same on another level)
[/quote]
See, my response to that is.....HOW ARE THOSE "BASKETBALL FACTORIES" DOING NOW?? This clearly indicates that there was a common denominator in those so called "basketball factories"...Ozen is HARDLY that these days and Port Arthur is a SHELL of what it COULD be..How did Hardin Jefferson do from Brietaupt to Sutherland? THEY DID NOT MISS A BEAT...Todd is the reason for that...Do you consider HJ to be a "basketball factory"? Does that diminish what Sutherland has done there? NO and NO....Its an example of a PROGRAM...Nederland is very good, and English has built that program to levels that it has never seen...Why would you consider Ozen to be a "basketball factory"? Are they now? why?

[Guest speechless]

[quote]the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES.[/quote]

Coach K took over Duke in 1980

Duke had been to the Final Four just two years prior in 1978 and 3 times prior to that year....hardly a bottom feeder

[Honest Abe]

Again, DV, re-read my last point. I said, regardless of what you believe...I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I simply corrected some false statements that you made about that Vidor team in an objective manner. You can subjectively state your opinion on who was more talented. Take a poll about Vidor having more basketball talent than Ozen, and I think we know the results. Again, what happened to all that 'talent' Vidor had? Are they currently in a 'down' year/period?

Boutte had a great system, just like English does. To claim that Boutte's system was better is asinine, bc we are comparing apples to oranges.

[Guest speechless]

[quote]..How did Hardin Jefferson do from Brietaupt to Sutherland? THEY DID NOT MISS A BEAT...Todd is the reason for that...Do you consider HJ to be a "basketball factory"?[/quote]

HJ had four other head coaches between Breithaupt and Sutherland.  None of those coaches had anything to do with it?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="speechless" post="1166188" timestamp="1327587485"]
[quote]the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES.[/quote]

Coach K took over Duke in 1980

Duke had been to the Final Four just two years prior in 1978 and 3 times prior to that year....hardly a bottom feeder
[/quote]
They were when Coach K arrived...Buna was good back in the day too...are they considered great still today in your estimation?

[quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166190#msg1166190 date=1327587637]
[quote]..How did Hardin Jefferson do from Brietaupt to Sutherland? THEY DID NOT MISS A BEAT...Todd is the reason for that...Do you consider HJ to be a "basketball factory"?[/quote]

HJ had four other head coaches between Breithaupt and Sutherland.  None of those coaches had anything to do with it?
[/quote]

You missed my point attempting to find holes...please re-read my statement and the ones leading up to it..HJ was just an example.

[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166189#msg1166189 date=1327587626]
Again, DV, re-read my last point. I said, regardless of what you believe...I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I simply corrected some false statements that you made about that Vidor team in an objective manner. You can subjectively state your opinion on who was more talented. Take a poll about Vidor having more basketball talent than Ozen, and I think we know the results. Again, what happened to all that 'talent' Vidor had? Are they currently in a 'down' year/period?

Boutte had a great system, just like English does. To claim that Boutte's system was better is asinine, bc we are comparing apples to oranges.

[/quote]
The proof is in the numbers, man..I never said his SYSTEM was better, I said his body of work was not comaparable to his AT THIS POINT...I have also ACKNOWLEDGED that Brian built Vidor to what it was..no question about it..Whats the argument about? I have agreed with you on several points...Just check the numbers...Thats all I ask.

[Guest speechless]

[quote]They were when Coach K arrived...Buna was good back in the day too...are they considered great still today in your estimation?[/quote]

So Buna being good 60 years ago is the same as Duke being good 2 years before Coach K arrived?

Also impossible to compare high school and college when one can choose their players and the other cannot.

[quote]You missed my point attempting to find holes...please re-read my statement and the ones leading up to it..HJ was just an example.[/quote]

How did I miss your point?  I am not trying to find holes.  You said Todd was the reason HJ has stayed good since Breithaupt left which is partially true.  I simply asked what about the other four coaches that were there in between the two?

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166168" timestamp="1327585722"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166129#msg1166129 date=1327577200]
Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte, if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program
would continue to flourish.
[/quote]

You are correct, we will never know the answer to those questions. I DO know that there is a VERY short list of coaches that could do what Brian English has done at Vidor, and Nederland, and an even SHORTER list that could duplicate what Boutte has done. Stevenash, the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING
TITLES....No one as close as HOUSTON knew anything about Ozen prior to the 2000 school year, and a year later we were 36-0, Class 4A State Champions.  How can people continue to downplay THAT? These are the FACTS.  Coach K is an incredible coach, and Duke is the standard because of continued success on the court by winning TITLES.  Syracuse was always a respected program, but until they won a title in 2003, they were not really considered to be ELITE. Ozen was an ELITE program when Boutte was there...not so much now...Nederland has the best coach on the sideline every contest in 20-4A now, by far...Nederland is not an ELITE program...They are very good, and yes building takes time...But
[b]one coach took a new program in year THREE to the region 3 tournament,[/b] and the next year was nationally ranked and went undefeated winning a state title, and in the next 5 years played in 3 more state championship games...How is THAT not the standard of excellence in SE Texas? Because people feel we had "talent"? Thats not fair...we had an NBA bound player, yes we did...and THREE Division 1 players in 10 years...TALENT? I say an ELITE PROGRAM was built....once again, how is that NOT the standard in SE Texas?
[/quote]
Interesting! Didn't Coach E take Nederland to the Regional Tourney in year 4 after taking over the worst team in 20-4A for 4-5 years?

Now he has lost that entire team, which had 0 NBA players on it BTW, and they haven't missed a beat this year. Ned has a very young team, and COULD make it back to the Region 3 Tourney this year. With 4 returning starters next year, it could be the year Ned earns a trip to
Austin! I guess that will be a good gauge for this conversation. I was taught that when you dream, dream big! And it's obvious that Coach E feels the same...

[Honest Abe]

When did I disagree with you? All I did was state [b]facts[/b] about what you said earlier, which was wrong about the classifications of the Vidor players. You have an [b]opinion[/b] on who is more talented, and I respectfully disagree.

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1166191" timestamp="1327588142"]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166188#msg1166188 date=1327587485]
[quote]the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING TITLES.[/quote]

Coach K took over Duke in 1980

Duke had been to the Final Four just two years prior in 1978 and 3 times prior to that year....hardly a bottom feeder
[/quote]
They were when Coach K arrived...Buna was good back in the day too...are they considered great still today in your estimation?

[quote author=speechless link=topic=94873.msg1166190#msg1166190 date=1327587637]
[quote]..How did Hardin Jefferson do from Brietaupt to Sutherland? THEY DID NOT MISS A BEAT...Todd is the reason for that...Do you consider HJ to be a "basketball factory"?[/quote]

HJ had four other head coaches between Breithaupt and Sutherland.  None of those coaches had anything to do with it?
[/quote]

You missed my point attempting to find holes...please re-read my statement and the ones leading up to it..HJ was just an example.

[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=94873.msg1166189#msg1166189 date=1327587626]
Again, DV, re-read my last point. I said, regardless of what you believe...I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I simply corrected some false statements that you made about that Vidor team in an objective manner. You can subjectively state your opinion on who was more talented. Take a poll about Vidor having more basketball talent than Ozen, and I think we know the results. Again, what happened to all that 'talent' Vidor had? Are they currently in a 'down' year/period?

Boutte had a great system, just like English does. To claim that Boutte's system was better is asinine, bc we are comparing apples to oranges.

[/quote]
The proof is in the numbers, man..I never said his SYSTEM was better, I said his body of work was not comaparable to his AT THIS POINT...I have also ACKNOWLEDGED that Brian built Vidor to what it was..no question about it..Whats the argument about? I have agreed with you on several points...Just check the numbers...Thats all I ask.
[/quote]

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="speechless" post="1166193" timestamp="1327588320"]
[quote]They were when Coach K arrived...Buna was good back in the day too...are they considered great still today in your estimation?[/quote]

So Buna being good 60 years ago is the same as Duke being good 2 years before Coach K arrived?

Also impossible to compare high school and college when one can choose their players and the other cannot.

[quote]You missed my point attempting to find holes...please re-read my statement and the ones leading up to it..HJ was just an example.[/quote]

How did I miss your point?  I am not trying to find holes.  You said Todd was the reason HJ has stayed good since Breithaupt left which is partially true.  I simply asked what about the other four coaches that were there in between the two?
[/quote]
My point about HJ was that it was NOT a "basketball factory"...had nothing to do with the coaches in between, I was referring to the beginning of the prominance of the program to the present...thats all...
Talking about Duke, I was making parallels to building a program to championship status...I understand the differences, but program building is universal.

[stevenash]

Pt. Arthur Lincoln was going to continue to do relatively well if they had hired someone other than Boutte as the next coach.  And yes, when I say basketball factory, I am referring to where that particular sport has the highest degree of interest from within the student body.  Definitely a fact at both Lincoln and Ozen.  Hardin Jefferson won mutliple state championships in golf and with a different coach most of the time.  They excelled because the kids in that area grew up on a golf course thus making their environment conducive to golf success just as the Lincoln/Ozen environments lend themselves to basketball success. With all due respect to Coach Boutte, I am very confident that the Nederland record last year and this year would be unchanged if Mr. Boutte was the Ozen coach.  I will ask you ONE MORE TIME- Would Phil Jacksons success have been lessened if Red Auerbach had hung around and coached longer?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1166197" timestamp="1327588436"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=94873.msg1166168#msg1166168 date=1327585722]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=94873.msg1166129#msg1166129 date=1327577200]
Dickie- Are you saying then that Mr. English, if placed in the exact circumstances that Boutte was in during his career, could not have produced similar results?  If so, then you are also suggesting that Boutte, if placed in Mr. English's circumstances, could have produced better results than what Mr. English achieved.  I say there is no way you could prove either.  I am pretty confident that if Tom Izzo, Coach K, Roy Williams and Bill Self all trade coaching jobs, each respective program
would continue to flourish.
[/quote]

You are correct, we will never know the answer to those questions. I DO know that there is a VERY short list of coaches that could do what Brian English has done at Vidor, and Nederland, and an even SHORTER list that could duplicate what Boutte has done. Stevenash, the ONLY difference between Coach K and a lot of others was the fact that he took a bottom feeder program and built a powerhouse program, WHILE WINNING
TITLES....No one as close as HOUSTON knew anything about Ozen prior to the 2000 school year, and a year later we were 36-0, Class 4A State Champions.  How can people continue to downplay THAT? These are the FACTS.  Coach K is an incredible coach, and Duke is the standard because of continued success on the court by winning TITLES.  Syracuse was always a respected program, but until they won a title in 2003, they were not really considered to be ELITE. Ozen was an ELITE program when Boutte was there...not so much now...Nederland has the best coach on the sideline every contest in 20-4A now, by far...Nederland is not an ELITE program...They are very good, and yes building takes time...But
[b]one coach took a new program in year THREE to the region 3 tournament,[/b] and the next year was nationally ranked and went undefeated winning a state title, and in the next 5 years played in 3 more state championship games...How is THAT not the standard of excellence in SE Texas? Because people feel we had "talent"? Thats not fair...we had an NBA bound player, yes we did...and THREE Division 1 players in 10 years...TALENT? I say an ELITE PROGRAM was built....once again, how is that NOT the standard in SE Texas?
[/quote]
Interesting! Didn't Coach E take Nederland to the Regional Tourney in year 4 after taking over the worst team in 20-4A for 4-5 years?

Now he has lost that entire team, which had 0 NBA players on it BTW, and they haven't missed a beat this year. Ned has a very young team, and COULD make it back to the Region 3 Tourney this year. With 4 returning starters next year, it could be the year Ned earns a trip to
Austin! I guess that will be a good gauge for this conversation. I was taught that when you dream, dream big! And it's obvious that Coach E feels the same...
[/quote]
OK..its obvious you're missing me all the way around here....I NEVER SAID WHAT COACH E WAS DOING WAS NOT GREAT....He is definitely getting it done...NO QUESTION.  I AM saying, however....In Year FOUR, Boutte went 36-0 winning a state title...Perk was DEVELOPED into an NBA talent, he did not come to us that way. Yes Coach E went to the regional tourney in year 4 after taking over that program...OZEN DID NOT EXIST, AND WENT TO AUSTIN AND WON IT IN YEAR 4...How are you missing THAT point?