Good coaching- Is winning a state championship a large determinant?

[stevenash]

Lots of talk on here in other threads about what defines a good coach and some complaints about it getting off topic so I thought it might be good to discuss it under this thread.  My own personal feeling is winning a championship is very nice but it does NOT define the competency of a coach-  I think there are plenty of good coaches who are in situations where it will be virtually impossible to win a state title and, at the same time, I think there are other situations that give just about any good coach an opportunity to win a state title.  I have mentioned it before but will repeat my feelings  that Lenny Wilkens (NBA Hall of Fame as both player and coach) could have done anything that Phil Jackson did if he had been in the same circumstances.  He never won an NBA championship but I believe he was as good a coach as there has been in the NBA.

[FanintheStands]

I think you are wrong, Steve, in saying Lenny Wilkens could have done all that Phil Jackson did.  Phil was the right man at the right time in being able to handle so many egos long enough to keep successful programs together (Chicago and LA).

I noticed on ESPN the other night, the all time number of games coached in the Super Bowl.  Don Shula had the most with 6, but at the number 9 and 10 spots were Marv Levy and Bud Grant.  Marv and Bud never won a super bowl out of 4 trips each.  I don't see anybody putting them at the same level as Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Bellicek, etc.

[BADSANTA]

Most of the greatest head coaches didn't always need to best talent to win it all.

[stevenash]

[quote name="FanintheStands" post="1168079" timestamp="1327938013"]
I think you are wrong, Steve, in saying Lenny Wilkens could have done all that Phil Jackson did.  Phil was the right man at the right time in being able to handle so many egos long enough to keep successful programs together (Chicago and LA).

I noticed on ESPN the other night, the all time number of games coached in the Super Bowl.  Don Shula had the most with 6, but at the number 9 and 10 spots were Marv Levy and Bud Grant.  Marv and Bud never won a super bowl out of 4 trips each.  I don't see anybody putting them at the same level as Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Bellicek, etc.
[/quote]

Then you are telling me that "only Phil" can handle egos and Lenny can't?  You don't think it has anything at all to do with being at "the right place at the right time"?  Are you saying that Brian English and Todd Sutherland could not switch places and have about the same success?  If you or I become the head baseball coach at Bridge City, there is a very good chance the team will do well in the playoffs.  Will that reflect how good of a coach that either one of us is?

[Guest speechless]

I think it is funny any time someone who is not a coach tries to determine who is a good coach and who is not.  Especially in the high school ranks.

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168082" timestamp="1327938509"]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168079#msg1168079 date=1327938013]
I think you are wrong, Steve, in saying Lenny Wilkens could have done all that Phil Jackson did.  Phil was the right man at the right time in being able to handle so many egos long enough to keep successful programs together (Chicago and LA).

I noticed on ESPN the other night, the all time number of games coached in the Super Bowl.  Don Shula had the most with 6, but at the number 9 and 10 spots were Marv Levy and Bud Grant.  Marv and Bud never won a super bowl out of 4 trips each.  I don't see anybody putting them at the same level as Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Bellicek, etc.
[/quote]

Then you are telling me that "only Phil" can handle egos and Lenny can't?  You don't think it has anything at all to do with being at "the right place at the right time"?  Are you saying that Brian English and Todd Sutherland could not switch places and have about the same success?  If you or I become the head baseball coach at Bridge City, there is a very good chance the team will do well in the playoffs.  Will that reflect how good of a coach that either one of us is?
[/quote]No, Steve, I did not say that ONLY Phil can handle egos.  I think that Phil handled egos better than the average coach, and nothing about Lenny Wilkens showed that he had that ability.  I'm not saying he didn't have it, but I'm just saying that I never saw it.

Brian English is a fantastic coach, and those who know him TODAY will acknowledge that he is as good as anybody else around, probably even Todd Sutherland.  But 30+ years from now, when you and I aren't around to argue the ego-handling of Phil and Lenny, nobody will remember Brian English unless he has put some trophies in the case. 

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="speechless" post="1168092" timestamp="1327940537"]
I think it is funny any time someone who is not a coach tries to determine who is a good coach and who is not.  Especially in the high school ranks.
[/quote]I define good coaching in high school by how the coach put together his team; knows each player's role and defines that role to the player and puts them in the [color=red]best situation[/color] to win on the court.

[BADSANTA]

Who has the best coaching staff in SETX? Does a state title define you as great or is it wins?

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="speechless" post="1168092" timestamp="1327940537"]
I think it is funny any time someone who is not a coach tries to determine who is a good coach and who is not.  Especially in the high school ranks.
[/quote]

Very. Kind of like folks who try to determine what players or teams are good or not without having played that particular sport or at least at the level as to which they are referring to. ::)

You, me and everyone else have made opinions from time to time on what or who is good or bad in sports without having "great" knowledge or experience to the subject.

[WOSgrad]

And just so that we are completely accurate here, Lenny Wilkens was the head coach of the 1979 NBA Champion Seattle Supersonics.

[BLUEDOVE3]

And the worse are those who coach and have no clue about how to use their players to their advantage. ::) Using little johnny cause parents paid dues to the booster club ;)

[Guest speechless]

[quote]Very. Kind of like folks who try to determine what players or teams are good or not without having played that particular sport or at least at the level as to which they are referring to.

You, me and everyone else have made opinions from time to time on what or who is good or bad in sports without having "great" knowledge or experience to the subject.[/quote]

Not sure what you are getting at?  Explain please?

[stevenash]

[quote name="FanintheStands" post="1168097" timestamp="1327940855"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168082#msg1168082 date=1327938509]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168079#msg1168079 date=1327938013]
I think you are wrong, Steve, in saying Lenny Wilkens could have done all that Phil Jackson did.  Phil was the right man at the right time in being able to handle so many egos long enough to keep successful programs together (Chicago and LA).

I noticed on ESPN the other night, the all time number of games coached in the Super Bowl.  Don Shula had the most with 6, but at the number 9 and 10 spots were Marv Levy and Bud Grant.  Marv and Bud never won a super bowl out of 4 trips each.  I don't see anybody putting them at the same level as Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Bellicek, etc.
[/quote]

Then you are telling me that "only Phil" can handle egos and Lenny can't?  You don't think it has anything at all to do with being at "the right place at the right time"?  Are you saying that Brian English and Todd Sutherland could not switch places and have about the same success?  If you or I become the head baseball coach at Bridge City, there is a very good chance the team will do well in the playoffs.  Will that reflect how good of a coach that either one of us is?
[/quote]No, Steve, I did not say that ONLY Phil can handle egos.  I think that Phil handled egos better than the average coach, and nothing about Lenny Wilkens showed that he had that ability.  I'm not saying he didn't have it, but I'm just saying that I never saw it.

Brian English is a fantastic coach, and those who know him TODAY will acknowledge that he is as good as anybody else around, probably even Todd Sutherland.  But 30+ years from now, when you and I aren't around to argue the ego-handling of Phil and Lenny, nobody will remember Brian English unless he has put some trophies in the case.
[/quote]

I must disagree.  I don't believe that you need to be remembered 30 years later in order to have been a good/great coach.  I remember Vince Lombardi but am willing to bet a dollar to a donut there were plenty of other good ones at the same time.  Nobody will have much recollection of Pat Foster but I happen to believe he was a very good coach and did as well as anybody could have done with his circumstances.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="speechless" post="1168110" timestamp="1327942466"]
[quote]Very. Kind of like folks who try to determine what players or teams are good or not without having played that particular sport or at least at the level as to which they are referring to.

You, me and everyone else have made opinions from time to time on what or who is good or bad in sports without having "great" knowledge or experience to the subject.[/quote]

Not sure what you are getting at?  Explain please?
[/quote]

My point is that everyone has an opinion(including you and I) on subjects that we do not have vast knowledge and experience on. It may seem funny to you but it is no different than you and me having a discussion on who we think is the better player in the NFL or college football, where I know both of us have never played.

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168119" timestamp="1327943273"]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168097#msg1168097 date=1327940855]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168082#msg1168082 date=1327938509]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168079#msg1168079 date=1327938013]
I think you are wrong, Steve, in saying Lenny Wilkens could have done all that Phil Jackson did.  Phil was the right man at the right time in being able to handle so many egos long enough to keep successful programs together (Chicago and LA).

I noticed on ESPN the other night, the all time number of games coached in the Super Bowl.  Don Shula had the most with 6, but at the number 9 and 10 spots were Marv Levy and Bud Grant.  Marv and Bud never won a super bowl out of 4 trips each.  I don't see anybody putting them at the same level as Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Bellicek, etc.
[/quote]

Then you are telling me that "only Phil" can handle egos and Lenny can't?  You don't think it has anything at all to do with being at "the right place at the right time"?  Are you saying that Brian English and Todd Sutherland could not switch places and have about the same success?  If you or I become the head baseball coach at Bridge City, there is a very good chance the team will do well in the playoffs.  Will that reflect how good of a coach that either one of us is?
[/quote]No, Steve, I did not say that ONLY Phil can handle egos.  I think that Phil handled egos better than the average coach, and nothing about Lenny Wilkens showed that he had that ability.  I'm not saying he didn't have it, but I'm just saying that I never saw it.

Brian English is a fantastic coach, and those who know him TODAY will acknowledge that he is as good as anybody else around, probably even Todd Sutherland.  But 30+ years from now, when you and I aren't around to argue the ego-handling of Phil and Lenny, nobody will remember Brian English unless he has put some trophies in the case.
[/quote]

I must disagree.  I don't believe that you need to be remembered 30 years later in order to have been a good/great coach.  I remember Vince Lombardi but am willing to bet a dollar to a donut there were plenty of other good ones at the same time.  Nobody will have much recollection of Pat Foster but I happen to believe he was a very good coach and did as well as anybody could have done with his circumstances.
[/quote]I don't disagree with you.  But the Pat Fosters of the world will fade away, while the coaches that have National Title Banners (or State Title Banners) are the ones who will be remembered.

Take Vince Lombardi,  Who were the coaches of the Chiefs and the Raiders when Vince won his first two Super Bowls.  Where are their names in the annals of history?

Don't forget, Steve,  Your initial premise reads, "[i]Good coaching- Is winning a state championship [u]a large determinant[/u]?[/i]"  ---- not, "[i]Good coaching - is winning a state championship [u]the only determining factor[/u][/i]".  I think state titles (and national titles for college) are a large determining factor for deciding who was a good coach.  Not the only factor, but certainly one of the factors.

I don't know, maybe its just me.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168102" timestamp="1327941664"]
Who has the best coaching staff in SETX? Does a state title define you as great or is it wins?
[/quote]

I dont think a title, by itself, tells that much.  If a coach comes in and turns around an unproductive program that ultimately ends up with a state title, I think that says quite a bit more about his abilities than just winning one.  If the Heat win the title this year, I dont think that will be an adequate determination that Eric Spoelstra was a better coach than Don Nelson even though one might be more inclined to remember Spoelstras name at some point down the road.

[Guest speechless]

Agreed...point was these opinions are not the determining factor in whether or not someone actually was or wasn't a good coach.

I don't think someone has to have played at a particular level to determine who is or isn't a good coach.  I would think peers within your profession would be the best qualified to determine who is or isn't good.  I believe this holds true at the high school level more than anywhere else because there are so many other factors that have an effect on success at the high school level that are beyond the coach's control.

I certainly don't agree that who the general public "remembers" is who was a good coach either.

[stevenash]

[quote name="FanintheStands" post="1168123" timestamp="1327943717"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168119#msg1168119 date=1327943273]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168097#msg1168097 date=1327940855]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168082#msg1168082 date=1327938509]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168079#msg1168079 date=1327938013]
I think you are wrong, Steve, in saying Lenny Wilkens could have done all that Phil Jackson did.  Phil was the right man at the right time in being able to handle so many egos long enough to keep successful programs together (Chicago and LA).

I noticed on ESPN the other night, the all time number of games coached in the Super Bowl.  Don Shula had the most with 6, but at the number 9 and 10 spots were Marv Levy and Bud Grant.  Marv and Bud never won a super bowl out of 4 trips each.  I don't see anybody putting them at the same level as Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Tom Landry, Bill Bellicek, etc.
[/quote]

Then you are telling me that "only Phil" can handle egos and Lenny can't?  You don't think it has anything at all to do with being at "the right place at the right time"?  Are you saying that Brian English and Todd Sutherland could not switch places and have about the same success?  If you or I become the head baseball coach at Bridge City, there is a very good chance the team will do well in the playoffs.  Will that reflect how good of a coach that either one of us is?
[/quote]No, Steve, I did not say that ONLY Phil can handle egos.  I think that Phil handled egos better than the average coach, and nothing about Lenny Wilkens showed that he had that ability.  I'm not saying he didn't have it, but I'm just saying that I never saw it.

Brian English is a fantastic coach, and those who know him TODAY will acknowledge that he is as good as anybody else around, probably even Todd Sutherland.  But 30+ years from now, when you and I aren't around to argue the ego-handling of Phil and Lenny, nobody will remember Brian English unless he has put some trophies in the case.
[/quote]

I must disagree.  I don't believe that you need to be remembered 30 years later in order to have been a good/great coach.  I remember Vince Lombardi but am willing to bet a dollar to a donut there were plenty of other good ones at the same time.  Nobody will have much recollection of Pat Foster but I happen to believe he was a very good coach and did as well as anybody could have done with his circumstances.
[/quote]I don't disagree with you.  But the Pat Fosters of the world will fade away, while the coaches that have National Title Banners (or State Title Banners) are the ones who will be remembered.

Take Vince Lombardi,  Who were the coaches of the Chiefs and the Raiders when Vince won his first two Super Bowls.  Where are their names in the annals of history?

Don't forget, Steve,  Your initial premise reads, "[i]Good coaching- Is winning a state championship [u]a large determinant[/u]?[/i]"  ---- not, "[i]Good coaching - is winning a state championship [u]the only determining factor[/u][/i]".  I think state titles (and national titles for college) are a large determining factor for deciding who was a good coach.  Not the only factor, but certainly one of the factors.

I don't know, maybe its just me.
[/quote]

I guess we can just both have our opinions.  I will tell you , though, that even thow I remember only Eisenhower and Patton, I think there were quite a few other leaders that helped us win the war.

[stevenash]

If we magically transfer an assistant coach from a losing program in this area over to Yates and they win a title, will we be able to claim that he was a great coach or were there other factors that played a larger role in that title?

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168131" timestamp="1327943994"]
I guess we can just both have our opinions.  I will tell you , though, that even thow I remember only Eisenhower and Patton, I think there were quite a few other leaders that helped us win the war.[/quote]And you will certainly get no argument from me on that point.

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168136" timestamp="1327944217"]
If we magically transfer an assistant coach from a losing program in this area over to Yates and they win a title, will we be able to claim that he was a great coach or were there other factors that played a larger role in that title?
[/quote]Instead of creating an imaginary scenario, let me ask you, how do the NFL coaching analysts rate Barry Switzer?  ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="FanintheStands" post="1168138" timestamp="1327944308"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168136#msg1168136 date=1327944217]
If we magically transfer an assistant coach from a losing program in this area over to Yates and they win a title, will we be able to claim that he was a great coach or were there other factors that played a larger role in that title?
[/quote]Instead of creating an imaginary scenario, let me ask you, how do the NFL coaching analysts rate Barry Switzer?  ;)
[/quote]

I will bet they dont rate him nearly as highly as the college coaching analysts do.  Same is true about Bud Wilkinson.  John Calipari and Rick Pitino (two excellent college coaches ) failed miserably in the NBA but I believe both will be remembered just as are Switzer and Wilkinson

[FanintheStands]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168140" timestamp="1327944504"]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168138#msg1168138 date=1327944308]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168136#msg1168136 date=1327944217]
If we magically transfer an assistant coach from a losing program in this area over to Yates and they win a title, will we be able to claim that he was a great coach or were there other factors that played a larger role in that title?
[/quote]Instead of creating an imaginary scenario, let me ask you, how do the NFL coaching analysts rate Barry Switzer?  ;)
[/quote]

I will bet they dont rate him nearly as highly as the college coaching analysts do.  Same is true about Bud Wilkinson.  John Calipari and Rick Pitino (two excellent college coaches ) failed miserably in the NBA but I believe both will be remembered just as are Switzer and Wilkinson
[/quote]So, to answer your question, the coach who goes to Yates will probably not get much credit, even though he would probably deserve more credit than he gets.  Winning a state championship takes a lot more than just putting the best talent on the floor.  There are still the intangibles and the luck factor that is needed....... although some teams may need a lot more luck than others.

[Dick Vitale]

As far as high school coaching goes, do you have to win a state title to be considered a great coach? NO. It does, however, set you apart from your collegues who have yet to win one. Does it necessarily make you a better coach than those who have not won a title? Of course not...There are a ton of elements that go into winning a championship, and a lot of things have to go right simulataniously for it to happen...ONE thing goes wrong, and it can instantly be over for you, that year...Its that easy to miss one.  And its that much harder to actually get one. It eludes many, but few are actually able to capture one. Thats what makes coaching great. Striving for that one elusive prize, year after year. Its a great feeling.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="FanintheStands" post="1168141" timestamp="1327944715"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168140#msg1168140 date=1327944504]
[quote author=FanintheStands link=topic=95117.msg1168138#msg1168138 date=1327944308]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168136#msg1168136 date=1327944217]
If we magically transfer an assistant coach from a losing program in this area over to Yates and they win a title, will we be able to claim that he was a great coach or were there other factors that played a larger role in that title?
[/quote]Instead of creating an imaginary scenario, let me ask you, how do the NFL coaching analysts rate Barry Switzer?  ;)
[/quote]

I will bet they dont rate him nearly as highly as the college coaching analysts do.  Same is true about Bud Wilkinson.  John Calipari and Rick Pitino (two excellent college coaches ) failed miserably in the NBA but I believe both will be remembered just as are Switzer and Wilkinson
[/quote]So, to answer your question, the coach who goes to Yates will probably not get much credit, even though he would probably deserve more credit than he gets.  Winning a state championship takes a lot more than just putting the best talent on the floor.  There are still the intangibles and the luck factor that is needed....... although some teams may need a lot more luck than others.
[/quote]Yeah, HJ comes to mind ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D