Good coaching- Is winning a state championship a large determinant?

[Dick Vitale]

Yates HS had ZERO state championships and ONE appearance (1983) before Greg Wise arrived... ::)....The person on the sidelines matters.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168154" timestamp="1327946685"]
Yates HS had ZERO state championships and ONE appearance (1983) before Greg Wise arrived... ::)....The person on the sidelines matters.
[/quote]

What irony.

That Yates team of 1983 was LOADED!!!! Winslow, Holcombe among 5 players who signed DI that year for Yates. The Lions lost in the state semifinals to Fort Worth Paschal whose tallest player was '6"3 compared to the starting lineup of Yates' '6"8, '6"9, '6"6, '6"5, '6"2.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168154" timestamp="1327946685"]
Yates HS had ZERO state championships and ONE appearance (1983) before Greg Wise arrived... ::)....The person on the sidelines matters.
[/quote]

And I contend that there are NUMEROUS other factors that contribute to winning a state high school championship.  If Brian English takes the place of Wise today, I dont believe their chances for success are any less by any stretch of the imagination.  Furthermore, if Wise comes to Bridge City, don't count on any state titles in the near future.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="1168162" timestamp="1327947267"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=95117.msg1168154#msg1168154 date=1327946685]
Yates HS had ZERO state championships and ONE appearance (1983) before Greg Wise arrived... ::)....The person on the sidelines matters.
[/quote]

What irony.

That Yates team of 1983 was LOADED!!!! Winslow, Holcombe among 5 players who signed DI that year for Yates. The Lions lost in the state semifinals to Fort Worth Paschal whose tallest player was '6"3 compared to the starting lineup of Yates' '6"8, '6"9, '6"6, '6"5, '6"2.
[/quote]Obviously *SIZE* does not matter ;)

[east texas bb]

Anyone that will admit the truth knows what happened at Yates.

[no-look]

The better coaches are the ones that can get the most out of what they have to work with and can teach life lessons.

[stevenash]

;D

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168101" timestamp="1327941470"]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=95117.msg1168092#msg1168092 date=1327940537]
I think it is funny any time someone who is not a coach tries to determine who is a good coach and who is not.  Especially in the high school ranks.
[/quote]I define good coaching in high school by how the coach put together his team; knows each player's role and defines that role to the player and puts them in the [color=red]best situation[/color] to win on the court.
[/quote]

Would you agree that there are many coaches who meet your above criteria who havent even sniffed a state championship?

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168185" timestamp="1327949569"]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95117.msg1168101#msg1168101 date=1327941470]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=95117.msg1168092#msg1168092 date=1327940537]
I think it is funny any time someone who is not a coach tries to determine who is a good coach and who is not.  Especially in the high school ranks.
[/quote]I define good coaching in high school by how the coach put together his team; knows each player's role and defines that role to the player and puts them in the [color=red]best situation[/color] to win on the court.
[/quote]

Would you agree that there are many coaches who meet your above criteria who havent even sniffed a state championship?
[/quote]Yep, a lot of good coaches never make it to State. And at the same time, I know a few bad coaches who made it to State, just on their talent.

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1168188" timestamp="1327949754"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168185#msg1168185 date=1327949569]
[quote author=BLUEDOVE3 link=topic=95117.msg1168101#msg1168101 date=1327941470]
[quote author=speechless link=topic=95117.msg1168092#msg1168092 date=1327940537]
I think it is funny any time someone who is not a coach tries to determine who is a good coach and who is not.  Especially in the high school ranks.
[/quote]I define good coaching in high school by how the coach put together his team; knows each player's role and defines that role to the player and puts them in the [color=red]best situation[/color] to win on the court.
[/quote]

Would you agree that there are many coaches who meet your above criteria who havent even sniffed a state championship?
[/quote]Yep, a lot of good coaches never make it to State. And at the same time, I know a few bad coaches who made it to State, just on their talent.
[/quote]

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along (although I know we dont want anyone to believe we agree on anything)

[east texas bb]

I agree 100 percent.  In John Wooden's book, you would be surprised by who he lists as coaches he thought were the best.  He even said alot of his success was due to him being in the right place at the right time.

[stevenash]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168193" timestamp="1327950180"]
I agree 100 percent.  In John Wooden's book, you would be surprised by who he lists as coaches he thought were the best.  He even said alot of his success was due to him being in the right place at the right time.
[/quote]

I hope everyone is reading the above.

[CThoops]

Championships are nice and help coaches get noticed very quickly, but they arent the biggest factor. Having talent makes everything easy. Bad Coaches can look great from better players, and Good Coaches can even look bad from not good players. Success for coaching basketball, IMO, comes from being at the right place at the right time. English is in a great spot right now. Talent in Nederland keeps growing, which is making his job alot easier.. Boute was in a great spot too, and knew it was time to move on after the talent pool got smaller in Beaumont.. Boute was a good coach who took advantage of the right situation to win..

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="dogs1218" post="1168202" timestamp="1327951249"]
Championships are nice and help coaches get noticed very quickly, but they arent the biggest factor. Having talent makes everything easy. Bad Coaches can look great from better players, and Good Coaches can even look bad from not good players. Success for coaching basketball, IMO, comes from being at the right place at the right time. English is in a great spot right now. Talent in Nederland keeps growing, which is making his job alot easier.. Boute was in a great spot too, and knew it was time to move on after the talent pool got smaller in Beaumont.. Boute was a good coach who took advantage of the right situation to win..
[/quote] [color=red]"Boute was in a great spot too, and knew it was time to move on after the talent pool got smaller in Beaumont.. "[/color] Interesting, I was wondering if anyone was going to bring this up. Just a few years ago we were on here discussing the talent level in the area high schools and how it went down.

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="dogs1218" post="1168202" timestamp="1327951249"]
Championships are nice and help coaches get noticed very quickly, but they arent the biggest factor. Having talent makes everything easy. Bad Coaches can look great from better players, and Good Coaches can even look bad from not good players. Success for coaching basketball, IMO, comes from being at the right place at the right time. English is in a great spot right now. Talent in Nederland keeps growing, which is making his job alot easier.. Boute was in a great spot too, and knew it was time to move on after the talent pool got smaller in Beaumont.. Boute was a good coach who took advantage of the right situation to win..
[/quote]
Talent keeps growing in Nederland bc English and a few others developed them through Little Dribblers. I know my son has benefitted through the program, and I've coached a few teams myself. It's a lot of fun, especially traveling to play in tourneys.

Don't know if it's true, but I heard the same about Boutte's reason for leaving Beaumont. He knew the talent was diminishing, so he left.

[AggiesAreWe]

I think getting paid 6 figures and being the AD at a 5A school had more to do with Boutte leaving Ozen than the lack of talent. ;)

[stevenash]

If one believes that Mr. Boutte has knowledge/experience/coaching secrets that are largely responsible for his success and are not available to others, don't you wonder why those who have coached at Memorial during his AD tenure have not had greater results with him being in such close proximity?

[BLUEDOVE3]

Makes $ents to me

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168220" timestamp="1327953302"]
If one believes that Mr. Boutte has knowledge/experience/coaching secrets that are largely responsible for his success and are not available to others, don't you wonder why those who have coached at Memorial during his AD tenure have not had greater results with him being in such close proximity?
[/quote]Why do you say this? A very successful coach is there now...please explain.....

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="1168219" timestamp="1327952910"]
I think getting paid 6 figures and being the AD at a 5A school had more to do with Boutte leaving Ozen than the lack of talent. ;)
[/quote]
True! Wonder if Coach E would go somewhere for that kind of money? Not sure what he's getting paid, and I (we) would hate to lose him. I know he loves coaching, but could you blame him for wanting to make more money?

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="AggiesAreWe" post="1168219" timestamp="1327952910"]
I think getting paid 6 figures and being the AD at a 5A school had more to do with Boutte leaving Ozen than the lack of talent. ;)
[/quote]
Thank you so much for having the common sense to answer this one correctly, AAW.... 8)....

People..... Ozen was in the state title game just one year prior to him leaving for Port Arthur...Had NOTHING to do with a perceived drop in talent.  He even asked the BISD administration if they could even come CLOSE to what he was offered in PA, and he would stay..The response was if they gave him the salary adjustment, they would have to do so for Simon (Westbrook) and Rice (Central) as well at that time. Which is why he went to PA when they called....IN DECEMBER!  ;).There is STILL more talent RIGHT NOW at Ozen than there is at Nederland.  ::)....No shortage there.

[AggiesAreWe]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1168226" timestamp="1327953689"]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=95117.msg1168219#msg1168219 date=1327952910]
I think getting paid 6 figures and being the AD at a 5A school had more to do with Boutte leaving Ozen than the lack of talent. ;)
[/quote]
True! Wonder if Coach E would go somewhere for that kind of money? Not sure what he's getting paid, and I (we) would hate to lose him. I know he loves coaching, but could you blame him for wanting to make more money?
[/quote]


I know it is very silly to try to speak for any coach, but given that type of situation, I would think the majority of "just" basketball coaches would make that move to be a 5A AD and get paid that kind of salary. Remember, this salary will have a lot to do with Boutte's retirement pay. ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168227" timestamp="1327953702"]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=95117.msg1168219#msg1168219 date=1327952910]
I think getting paid 6 figures and being the AD at a 5A school had more to do with Boutte leaving Ozen than the lack of talent. ;)
[/quote]
Thank you so much for having the common sense to answer this one correctly, AAW.... 8)....

People..... Ozen was in the state title game just one year prior to him leaving for Port Arthur...Had NOTHING to do with a perceived drop in talent.  He even asked the BISD administration if they could even come CLOSE to what he was offered in PA, and he would stay..The response was if they gave him the salary adjustment, they would have to do so for Simon (Westbrook) and Rice (Central) as well at that time. Which is why he went to PA when they called....IN DECEMBER!  ;).There is STILL more talent RIGHT NOW at Ozen than there is at Nederland.  ::)....No shortage there.
[/quote]

More talent at Ozen than Nederland?-  Possibly.  More skill?- Doubtful  More basketball intellect ?  Not a Chinamans chance in "you know where".  I think Larry Bird pretty well proved that there is something more to basketball than athleticism which, for many is used as a synonym for talent.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168230" timestamp="1327954294"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=95117.msg1168227#msg1168227 date=1327953702]
[quote author=AggiesAreWe link=topic=95117.msg1168219#msg1168219 date=1327952910]
I think getting paid 6 figures and being the AD at a 5A school had more to do with Boutte leaving Ozen than the lack of talent. ;)
[/quote]
Thank you so much for having the common sense to answer this one correctly, AAW.... 8)....

People..... Ozen was in the state title game just one year prior to him leaving for Port Arthur...Had NOTHING to do with a perceived drop in talent.  He even asked the BISD administration if they could even come CLOSE to what he was offered in PA, and he would stay..The response was if they gave him the salary adjustment, they would have to do so for Simon (Westbrook) and Rice (Central) as well at that time. Which is why he went to PA when they called....IN DECEMBER!  ;).There is STILL more talent RIGHT NOW at Ozen than there is at Nederland.  ::)....No shortage there.
[/quote]

More talent at Ozen than Nederland?-  Possibly.  More skill?- Doubtful  More basketball intellect ?  Not a Chinamans chance in "you know where".  I think Larry Bird pretty well proved that there is something more to basketball than athleticism which, for many is used as a synonym for talent.
[/quote]
Soooo, you think Larry Bird (as great as he was) was better than MJ? How about Majic? ::) ::)
Yeah, ok....Furthermore, my friend, I said (and meant) that Ozen was more TALENTED than Nederland, THIS SEASON..more talented...more talented..(one more time, in case you missed it) more talented than Nederland. What do you think Coach Boutte would have done at Ozen against this Nederland team with more talent, since thats most of you guys excuse for him winning anyway? ::) ::)...Take your time...I'll wait... ::)..How about what he always did, with "more talent"...win..and win BIG... ;)...Possibly make a trip to Austin, because after all...he is in the right place at the right time, usually, right?  ::)

[stevenash]

I dont have to take any time.  I disagree with your assessment about the talent,skill, intellect at Ozen and also with your theory that Mr. Boutte would somehow magically transform them into something substantially greater than they are.  No, I dont think Bird is better than M.J.  Nor is anyone else for that matter.  If you are going to sit there and try to convince everyone that Ozen goes to Austin this year if Boutte is coaching, you are dreaming a giant dream.  I emphasize that this is just my opinion and that doesnt count for much.  There is only one difference in that respect between you and me.  I know what I don't know. One more question:  Are Rick Carlisle and Eric Spoelstra the same coaches they were 3 years ago?  Also, is the K. Perkins 3 point attempt at the state tourney a result of "good coaching"?