Good coaching- Is winning a state championship a large determinant?

[BADSANTA]

Coach Boutte had the luxury of having the best talent in the area along with him being a players coach. Could Boutte have taken the talent in Silsbee to state and won back in the late 80's and 90's? What if he coached some of those good Cleveland teams?

[BADSANTA]

[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168241#msg1168241 date=1327955572
I dont have to take any time.  I disagree with your assessment about the talent,skill, intellect at Ozen and also with your theory that Mr. Boutte would somehow magically transform them into something substantially greater than they are.  No, I dont think Bird is better than M.J.  Nor is anyone else for that matter.  If you are going to sit there and try to convince everyone that Ozen goes to Austin this year if Boutte is coaching, you are dreaming a giant dream.  I emphasize that this is just my opinion and that doesnt count for much.  There is only one difference in that respect between you and me.  I know what I don't know. One more question:  Are Rick Carlisle and Eric Spoelstra the same coaches they were 3 years ago?  Also, is the K. Perkins 3 point attempt at the state tourney a result of "good coaching"?
[/quote]


I do think Boutte would have Ozen playing better ball. No way they make it state with him coaching though.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="stevenash" post="1168241" timestamp="1327955572"]
I dont have to take any time.  I disagree with your assessment about the talent,skill, intellect at Ozen and also with your theory that Mr. Boutte would somehow magically transform them into something substantially greater than they are.  No, I dont think Bird is better than M.J.  Nor is anyone else for that matter.  If you are going to sit there and try to convince everyone that Ozen goes to Austin this year if Boutte is coaching, you are dreaming a giant dream.  I emphasize that this is just my opinion and that doesnt count for much.  There is only one difference in that respect between you and me.  I know what I don't know. One more question:  Are Rick Carlisle and Eric Spoelstra the same coaches they were 3 years ago?  Also, is the K. Perkins 3 point attempt at the state tourney a result of "good coaching"?
[/quote]
Stevenash, Ozen IS more talented than Nederland...Better team right now? Maybe not, but they have more basketball talent over there right now. So according to you guys theories about Coach Boutte and him always having "talent", would it not be a fair assesment to say that he would have a fair amount of success in district 20-4A with this team, as he has in years past, with more perceived talent?  ::)

[stevenash]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168246" timestamp="1327955859"]
Coach Boutte had the luxury of having the best talent in the area along with him being a players coach. Could Boutte have taken the talent in Silsbee to state and won back in the late 80's and 90's? What if he coached some of those good Cleveland teams?
[/quote]

IN the situations you  site, I think that is very conceivable.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168251" timestamp="1327956228"]
[quote author=stevenash link=topic=95117.msg1168241#msg1168241 date=1327955572]
I dont have to take any time.  I disagree with your assessment about the talent,skill, intellect at Ozen and also with your theory that Mr. Boutte would somehow magically transform them into something substantially greater than they are.  No, I dont think Bird is better than M.J.  Nor is anyone else for that matter.  If you are going to sit there and try to convince everyone that Ozen goes to Austin this year if Boutte is coaching, you are dreaming a giant dream.  I emphasize that this is just my opinion and that doesnt count for much.  There is only one difference in that respect between you and me.  I know what I don't know. One more question:  Are Rick Carlisle and Eric Spoelstra the same coaches they were 3 years ago?  Also, is the K. Perkins 3 point attempt at the state tourney a result of "good coaching"?
[/quote]
Stevenash, Ozen IS more talented than Nederland...Better team right now? Maybe not, but they have more basketball talent over there right now. So according to you guys theories about Coach Boutte and him always having "talent", would it not be a fair assesment to say that he would have a fair amount of success in district 20-4A with this team, as he has in years past, with more perceived talent?  ::)
[/quote]

POssibly, if we ACCEPT your THEORY that the talent is what you say it is.  That is where you and I disagree.  And yes, although not as good as MJ, I am confident that Larry Bird was, without a doubt, every bit as good as Magic.  Did the Heat have more talent than the Mavericks last season?

[Dick Vitale]

By the way..Perk HOISTED up that three in Austin in the state game in 2003, out of sheer frustration..He was one of two seniors with a bunch of 10th graders on the floor.. 8)....Yeah, I gave him the WHAT THE ---- look as well!! :D

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168255" timestamp="1327956565"]
By the way..Perk HOISTED up that three in Austin in the state game in 2003, out of sheer frustration..He was one of two seniors with a bunch of 10th graders on the floor.. 8)....Yeah, I gave him the WHAT THE ---- look as well!! :D
[/quote]

I know- I was there- If those players were so well coached, wouldn't they have known better than to do that?

[Guest tigersvoice]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168255" timestamp="1327956565"]
By the way..Perk HOISTED up that three in Austin in the state game in 2003, out of sheer frustration..He was one of two seniors with a bunch of 10th graders on the floor.. 8)....Yeah, I gave him the WHAT THE ---- look as well!! :D
[/quote]
Well, that's some serious coaching, isn't it?

[stevenash]

;D

[Honest Abe]

Just because one has more athletic ability does in no way make one a better basketball player (aka, basketball talent). Nederland has proven to have better basketball talent in 5/6 most recent meetings against Ozen.

[BADSANTA]

Coach English is doing very well at Big Ned! He deserves more credit than what he gets.

[CThoops]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168279" timestamp="1327957925"]
Coach English is doing very well at Big Ned! He deserves more credit than what he gets.
[/quote]

Oh no doubt! He has gotten kids excited about basketball! Created the talent pool in the area

[east texas bb]

I just remember Ozen coming on to the basketball scene when they were a very young ISD, 1st or 2nd year, and they had a freshman (Perkins) who at the time everyone allready knew had a very good chance at playing professionally with another 6'7" with some guards that were good.  I dont see how player development can be contributed to anyone when a school has only been in existence for a year or two.  Is that saying Boutte is a good or bad coach, no, not at all, it is situation where someone was in the right place at the right time.
As far as Ozen having more talent than Nederland this year, they may have more athletic ability, but the recent record would reflect differently.

[BLUEDOVE3]

And athletic ability means nothing if you don't play smart as a team.

[east texas bb]

Very True Blue.
I just dont think most people realize the difficulty or the difference in building a basketball program to inheriting one.
To influence a community and school to do something they have never done before is huge, gaining all of the support and effort from the town, teaching kids how to play at a young age and knowing that will be your future is a huge statement and committment.  Going from consistently losing to consistently winning is a culture change to the entire community/school, and one that only a few get a chance to do and even less get to be around to see the results.

[stevenash]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1168294" timestamp="1327959243"]
Very True Blue.
I just dont think most people realize the difficulty or the difference in building a basketball program to inheriting one.
To influence a community and school to do something they have never done before is huge, gaining all of the support and effort from the town, teaching kids how to play at a young age and knowing that will be your future is a huge statement and committment.  Going from consistently losing to consistently winning is a culture change to the entire community/school, and one that only a few get a chance to do and even less get to be around to see the results.
[/quote]

Since he wont be able to say it himself due to personal values, I can tell you that East texas has been a participant in what he described above and therefore is speaking from personal experience

[Dick Vitale]

I just don't understand how you guys can say, with the body of work that was done, (STATE TITLES) that it was ALWAYS due to having a "talent" advantage...Ironically enough, my good friend over at Nederland, is proving me to be RIGHT...Ozen has more talent this season...Nederland is undefeated in district 20-4A...I am done... ::)..I am agreeing with east texas bb about the "talent" statement, yet I don't really think he realizes it yet... ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168306" timestamp="1327960894"]
I just don't understand how you guys can say, with the body of work that was done, (STATE TITLES) that it was ALWAYS due to having a "talent" advantage...Ironically enough, my good friend over at Nederland, is proving me to be RIGHT...Ozen has more talent this season...Nederland is undefeated in district 20-4A...I am done... ::)..I am agreeing with east texas bb about the "talent" statement, yet I don't really think he realizes it yet... ;)
[/quote]

Interesting because I recall you stating that in the year when Vidor beat Ozen 3 out of 4 times you stated it was because of superior talent.  Seems like you may use talent as a reason only when it bolsters the point you are trying to make.  IF we use your parameters for talent, the Vidor team we are speaking of had no where near the "talent" that Ozen did (stressing your definition of talent)

[Dick Vitale]

Once again, that year Vidor was good! Each game could have gone either way...HOWEVER....Vidor came in 2nd place, Ozen won the district.  Vidor lost in round two, Ozen went to regionals...Its not that hard to understand why I see things a bit different.

[BADSANTA]

Vidor beat Ozen in basketball?  Wow! Did the Universe Flip flop that year?

[Dick Vitale]

2004..must have been a leap year or something! :D..broke the FIVE YEAR district winning streak...but in didn't effect the district champion streak one bit... ::)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1168324" timestamp="1327961953"]
Once again, that year Vidor was good! Each game could have gone either way...HOWEVER....Vidor came in 2nd place, Ozen won the district.  Vidor lost in round two, Ozen went to regionals...Its not that hard to understand why I see things a bit different.
[/quote]

I know its not hard to understand.  The only reality you must face is your opinion is a valid one but it is NOT, under ANY circumstance, the gospel.  Say all you want about who won district.  The point being made is that Mr. Boutte, did NOT, by any STRETCH, do anything to outcoach Mr. English that year.  Boutte was a great coach but he is still a human being and holds NO (yes that means NONE) mystical powers that arent possessed by other competent coaches.  If Boutte had gone to Central instead of Ozen, would the results have been the same for the Jags?  I know your answer so, in advance, I will say "give me a break"

[Honest Abe]

Either way you look at it, Vidor was the better team that year. We can all agree to disagree on which team was more 'talented', more 'athletically gifted', and who the better coach might have been.

Ozen went deeper and won district. I would bet that Vidor would rather have been 0-3 against Ozen that year, won the district title, and earn a trip to the regional tourney, but they did not have a favorable matchup in round 2, and they lacked playoff experience.

But head to head there is no way anyone can claim that Ozen was the better team that year.

3-0 says it all.

[BADSANTA]

I think Joe Sigler is a coach most don't give credit too. I think he is in the top 20 in Texas in Alltime wins and district title. He hasn't had the privilege of winning a state title but there aren't too many coaches in SETX who I would rather have over him.......CHURCH!

[stevenash]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1168341" timestamp="1327963231"]
I think Joe Sigler is a coach most don't give credit too. I think he is in the top 20 in Texas in Alltime wins and district title. He hasn't had the privilege of winning a state title but there aren't too many coaches in SETX who I would rather have over him.......CHURCH!
[/quote]

Sigler is an excellent example of a good competent coach without a state title.  If he wins it all this year, there will be nothing he knew or did that he didnt know or wouldnt have done 2 or 3 or 4 years ago.  A lot of it will have to do with, as someone else said, being in the right place at the right time.