Athletecism vs Intellect

[Dick Vitale]

If you ask 100 Houstonians, who is better out of Bird and Magic, 75-85% say Ervin Johnson due to body of work among other factors.....ask 100 people in SE Texas that same question, and the majority will say Bird...I would bet the farm on that fact, and MOST couldn't even tell you why..... ::) You tell me.... ;)...I think AAW hit the nail on the head on that one... ;)....Its ok...I understand.

[baddog]

If we haven't told you why, then you have comprehension problems. Funny that it's the minorities who vote against Bird. Isn't that racism? You bet it is.

You're a lost cause.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="baddog" post="1198184" timestamp="1331923451"]
If we haven't told you why, then you have comprehension problems. Funny that it's the minorities who vote against Bird. Isn't that racism? You bet it is.

You're a lost cause.
[/quote]
This "minority" has said that Larry Bird is one if the greatest to ever do it...more than once...Racist? NO....Sensible person that understands basketball...absolutely.

[Honest Abe]

If I were a Celtics fan in the 80s (which I was/am a Rockets fan) and was told that Bird had been traded, I would have fainted. However, if the trade was for Magic I would have been completely ok with it. Same goes if I were a Lakers fan. I don't think ANYONE can definitively create a case for either player being clearly better than the other.
Now when it comes the 'real' MJ, that's another story.  8)

[Rockin A]

To the former assistant coach:  As stated earlier, I'd take Bird over Magic because he was a quiet, consistent leader.  I prefer a quiet, business-as-usual leader, not the flashy type that Magic was.  Magic's made-up name indicates what he thought of himself.  I appreciated what Magic brought to the court, but I preferred Bird's offerings more.  That's my opinion.  Why you discount so many opinions on here is beyond me.  I don't remember anybody doing that to you.  Suggesting race has anything to do with this discussion is simply silly, yet clearly representative of your motives.

Sheesh

[east texas bb]

People sense what they want to sense.  I couldnt believe that statement was brought up, that Nash was for South Dakota or thought there reasons for being ahead were because of race, that was a low blow that deserves an apologize.  South Dakota was playing more intelligent ball and Vermont over Lamar for that factor.  You can be a lay basketball fan and see that.

Dickie you remind me of this quote" It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".
Abraham Linocoln
And this was the most foolish thing you have said or insuated  on this message board as of yet, that your basketball intellect is higher than others on this board.  Anyone that has to bring this up is a very insecure person.

[Dick Vitale]

East Texas bb...my basketball and overall intellect is higher than yours...now what?  8)

[Honest Abe]

So the 'experts' had Duke as a number 2 seed, yet they lose to a 15 seed. So all of the 'Basketball Gurus' who know as much as one can know about basketball were wrong?? ??? Being a common man, how does this happen?
Additionally, Missouri was predicted by MANY to make it to the Final Four (by the experts). Yet, these 'Gurus' got it wrong! With as much 'expertise' will someone please explain how they got it wrong? ???

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1198564" timestamp="1331955604"]
So the 'experts' had Duke as a number 2 seed, yet they lose to a 15 seed. So all of the 'Basketball Gurus' who know as much as one can know about basketball were wrong?? ??? Being a common man, how does this happen?
Additionally, Missouri was predicted by MANY to make it to the Final Four (by the experts). Yet, these 'Gurus' got it wrong! With as much 'expertise' will someone please explain how they got it wrong? ???
[/quote] Sh!t Happens

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="NB-Dawg" post="1198564" timestamp="1331955604"]
So the 'experts' had Duke as a number 2 seed, yet they lose to a 15 seed. So all of the 'Basketball Gurus' who know as much as one can know about basketball were wrong?? ??? Being a common man, how does this happen?
Additionally, Missouri was predicted by MANY to make it to the Final Four (by the experts). Yet, these 'Gurus' got it wrong! With as much 'expertise' will someone please explain how they got it wrong? ???
[/quote]
Dove is right....it happens, but not to worry....Nederland will NEVER win or go to state...So don't look at this as hope! ;D

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1198155" timestamp="1331922256"]
If you ask 100 Houstonians, who is better out of Bird and Magic, 75-85% say Ervin Johnson due to body of work among other factors.....ask 100 people in SE Texas that same question, and the majority will say Bird...I would bet the farm on that fact, and MOST couldn't even tell you why..... ::) You tell me.... ;)...I think AAW hit the nail on the head on that one... ;)....Its ok...I understand.
[/quote]

You have no idea about the "ask 100 Houstonians" theory,(it's just something you threw out there) unless you get to choose those that are asked the question.  Furthermore, a random 100 Houstonians hardly is a credible method of determining an answer.  Why Houston?  Why not Denver or Phoenix or Kansas City?  It is also very interesting that the "topic police" haven't become "concerned" about the injection of racism and Nederland into this thread and asked you to stay on topic as you have requested in recent times on other threads.  One more question:  Since you have no earthly idea who East Texas BB is, how do you "know" that your basketball intellect and overall intellect is higher than his?

[stevenash]

[quote name="east texas bb" post="1198504" timestamp="1331950814"]
People sense what they want to sense.  I couldnt believe that statement was brought up, that Nash was for South Dakota or thought there reasons for being ahead were because of race, that was a low blow that deserves an apologize.  South Dakota was playing more intelligent ball and Vermont over Lamar for that factor.  You can be a lay basketball fan and see that.

Dickie you remind me of this quote" It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".
Abraham Linocoln
And this was the most foolish thing you have said or insuated  on this message board as of yet, that your basketball intellect is higher than others on this board.  Anyone that has to bring this up is a very insecure person.
[/quote]

And for the record, I am a twenty year + season ticket holder at Lamar, a financial contributor, and was present when the won the Southland Conference tourney recently.  Not many out there that pull for/ support Lamar more than I do.

[baddog]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1198584" timestamp="1331960592"]
[quote author=NB-Dawg link=topic=97596.msg1198564#msg1198564 date=1331955604]
So the 'experts' had Duke as a number 2 seed, yet they lose to a 15 seed. So all of the 'Basketball Gurus' who know as much as one can know about basketball were wrong?? ??? Being a common man, how does this happen?
Additionally, Missouri was predicted by MANY to make it to the Final Four (by the experts). Yet, these 'Gurus' got it wrong! With as much 'expertise' will someone please explain how they got it wrong? ???
[/quote]
Dove is right....it happens, but not to worry....[b]Nederland will NEVER win or go to state[/b]...So don't look at this as hope! ;D
[/quote]

Neither will you as a HC.  ;D

It also happens that you are wrong on this one. Put any one player you can think of on a team with Larry Bird and I promise I would not have any problem going to Bird for the game winning clutch shot. The only one better would be Jerry West...."Mr. Clutch"

[Dick Vitale]

Once again, its not about ME...I already own state rings, anyway.. ;)...I was talking about your school, not YOU...I've been...and you'll never go...not the issue..so stop making it one... 8)
Hey Nash, did Lehigh intellects stun Duke, or did they out athlete them? What about Norfolk State? Were they simply "smarter" than Missouri? ::)
Hey baddog....Michael Jordan was the best ever....Jerry West is the logo, and we all know why, but Bill Russell SHOULD have been, in that era...Jerry West? No...Michael Jordan....go ahead say West was better....Prove my point.. 8)

[baddog]

Why?, you never prove anything. Everything you say is all about you. You just rely on telling everyone that you know it all......NOT!!!

Jerry West was "known" as "Mr. Clutch!!!" I never said anything about Jordan being better or worse, that was your interpretation. I said I would have no problem going to Bird for the game winner should he be on the same team with Jordan or West.

Jordan may indeed be the best ever, but he won zero rings until Scottie Pippen came into his own.

Lehigh outplayed Duke. Everyone on the floor is an athlete. If not, then basketball is not the sport to be involved with.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="baddog" post="1198636" timestamp="1331996629"]
Why?, you never prove anything. Everything you say is all about you. You just rely on telling everyone that you know it all......NOT!!!

Jerry West was "known" as "Mr. Clutch!!!" I never said anything about Jordan being better or worse, that was your interpretation. I said I would have no problem going to Bird for the game winner should he be on the same team with Jordan or West.

Jordan may indeed be the best ever, but he won zero rings until Scottie Pippen came into his own.

Lehigh outplayed Duke. Everyone on the floor is an athlete. If not, then basketball is not the sport to be involved with.
[/quote]
Ther thread topic is ATHLETICISM VS. INTELLECT.....My question was which won the game for Lehigh yesterday? As for your ridiculous comment about Jordan not winning until Pippen "came into his own", great players make players around them better...Without Jordan, THERE IS NO PIPPEN...Maybe you Nederland faithful should just stay on the soccer and baseball threads. Your hoops knowledge is limited.... ::)....and so is your trophy case at Nederland... ;)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1198630" timestamp="1331993574"]
Once again, its not about ME...I already own state rings, anyway.. ;)...I was talking about your school, not YOU...I've been...and you'll never go...not the issue..so stop making it one... 8)
Hey Nash, did Lehigh intellects stun Duke, or did they out athlete them? What about Norfolk State? Were they simply "smarter" than Missouri? ::)
Hey baddog....Michael Jordan was the best ever....Jerry West is the logo, and we all know why, but Bill Russell SHOULD have been, in that era...Jerry West? No...Michael Jordan....go ahead say West was better....Prove my point.. 8)
[/quote]

I did not see the Lehigh -duke or Missouri - Norfolk games so cant offer my opinion.  I can only assure you of this.  EVERY SINGLE time you try to suggest or infer racism has anything to do with this, I will have a response and will NEVER be railroaded or intimidated by those inferences.  I believe I stated this before but, with your "famous" pedigree, go ahead and tell me why the following is not correct.  If an individual aspires to become a good basketball player and knows he cant make himself into a player who is as quick, fast, or who jumps as high as his competitors, would it not be logical that he will try to concentrate on being a smarter player with some better skills in an effort to offset any physical disadvantage he may have?  Will he possibly put more work into shooting proficiency than someone else does to make himself a player someone wants on their team? Will he try to become more knowledgeable about positions on the court, responsibilities, etc?  Will he try to set that screen a little bit better than the average player does so as to become a better player?  Will he make an effort to perhaps be a little more cerebral than someone else is because he has no choice and making one or two more good decisions in a contest just might help his game?  If a coach has a group of these types of players ( yes, the ones who cant run as fast or jump as high) is he going to concentrate on whatever strong points those players have in order to try to help them compete or will he spend his time trying to magically make them more athletic?  Additionally, let go of the "state rings" stuff because it is not nearly as big of a deal as you portray it to be.  If it is, you need to defer to Cbosha.

[baddog]

So is your HC trophy. Our case is bare of state trophies, but we have some DC trophies, which is where everyone starts.

Bird made everyone around him better, just like Perkins made you look like a better coach than you are.

Lehigh did not outsmart or out athlete anyone. They played the game of basketball better. Funny how you dodged the athletic part of my post. Everyone in basketball/sports is an athlete.

You should go to the comedy central forum. You'd be a smash hit.

All in good fun DV.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="baddog" post="1198646" timestamp="1331998943"]
So is your HC trophy. Our case is bare of state trophies, but we have some DC trophies, which is where everyone starts.

Bird made everyone around him better, just like Perkins made you look like a better coach than you are.

Lehigh did not outsmart or out athlete anyone. They played the game of basketball better. Funny how you dodged the athletic part of my post. Everyone in basketball/sports is an athlete.

You should go to the comedy central forum. You'd be a smash hit.

All in good fun DV.
[/quote]
Once again, you attack ME...Its not about ME...You seem obsessed..I am talking about a specific topic, not ME...I have done PLENTY in the 1st chair, and there is lots to go, but what exactly have YOU done? Its not important, because no one really cares....STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT ME...I said YOUR SCHOOL would never win state...I said YOUR SCHOOL HAS NEVER WON STATE IN ANYTHING...I did not comment on "baddog" at all...Do you even KNOW an NBA player? Have you ever even won a Rec championship? How about intramurals? Been to college? Exactly...NO ONE CARES...Its tough being a nobody, huh, baddog? ;)

[quote author=stevenash link=topic=97596.msg1198642#msg1198642 date=1331998604]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=97596.msg1198630#msg1198630 date=1331993574]
Once again, its not about ME...I already own state rings, anyway.. ;)...I was talking about your school, not YOU...I've been...and you'll never go...not the issue..so stop making it one... 8)
Hey Nash, did Lehigh intellects stun Duke, or did they out athlete them? What about Norfolk State? Were they simply "smarter" than Missouri? ::)
Hey baddog....Michael Jordan was the best ever....Jerry West is the logo, and we all know why, but Bill Russell SHOULD have been, in that era...Jerry West? No...Michael Jordan....go ahead say West was better....Prove my point.. 8)
[/quote]

I did not see the Lehigh -duke or Missouri - Norfolk games so cant offer my opinion.  I can only assure you of this.  EVERY SINGLE time you try to suggest or infer racism has anything to do with this, I will have a response and will NEVER be railroaded or intimidated by those inferences.  I believe I stated this before but, with your "famous" pedigree, go ahead and tell me why the following is not correct.  If an individual aspires to become a good basketball player and knows he cant make himself into a player who is as quick, fast, or who jumps as high as his competitors, would it not be logical that he will try to concentrate on being a smarter player with some better skills in an effort to offset any physical disadvantage he may have?  Will he possibly put more work into shooting proficiency than someone else does to make himself a player someone wants on their team? Will he try to become more knowledgeable about positions on the court, responsibilities, etc?  Will he try to set that screen a little bit better than the average player does so as to become a better player?  Will he make an effort to perhaps be a little more cerebral than someone else is because he has no choice and making one or two more good decisions in a contest just might help his game?  If a coach has a group of these types of players ( yes, the ones who cant run as fast or jump as high) is he going to concentrate on whatever strong points those players have in order to try to help them compete or will he spend his time trying to magically make them more athletic?  Additionally, let go of the "state rings" stuff because it is not nearly as big of a deal as you portray it to be.  If it is, you need to defer to Cbosha.
[/quote]

The funny thing is stevenash, I completely agree with what you are saying here...My "pedigree" has taught me that throughout the years..I have no idea why you keep placing emphasis on where I come from, but I am proud of my lineage...Proud family name...I was born in it..and as always, I know what I know..As for the state rings, that was a pun intended at someone else...My dad always taught me to never make that my greatest accomplishment in life, and I believe that. 

My issue with this whole athleticism vs. intellect is the fact that it IS for all practical purposes what AAW described...In your mind, if they are of the caucasion persuasion, they MUST be a smarter team..Nash, you know NOTHING about the intellectual capacity of the Vermont team, yet in your mind they were "smarter" than the Lamar players based on what? How they played? or how they LOOKED? I watched that game and saw a Vermont team that was bigger, well prepared, and just a better overall team than Lamar...Had nothing to do with how much smarter they were than the Lamar kids...Yes you may donate to Lamar and all, but that still does not change your view of those kids, because they don't look like you...Your mocking of my "pedigree" speaks volumes...I think you are a nice guy, nash...I really do, but I also think you have your biases when it comes to this particular topic...No harm in that...it is what it is.

[baddog]

Ha ha, thanks for not attacking. Must have hit a nerve huh?

Just like you don't want this to be about you, how does Ned winning state figure into this thread? Leave my school alone and I will leave you alone. Pretty simple really. Even you should see that.

EVERYONE playing basketball is athletic

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="baddog" post="1198653" timestamp="1332000005"]
Ha ha, thanks for not attacking. Must have hit a nerve huh?

Just like you don't want this to be about you, how does Ned winning state figure into this thread? [b]Leave my school alone and I will leave you alone[/b]. Pretty simple really. Even you should see that.

EVERYONE playing basketball is athletic
[/quote]
How is THAT fair...You are a NOBODY...who cares if I talk about what YOU have not accomplished? Your school is not great either. They have a great basketball coach and they are too DUMB to help him to be successful......Even YOU should know that, although you would never admit it...This thread does not dispute that everyone playing is not to SOME degree, athletic...Its ATHLETICISM VS INTELLECT...Example: Nederland has very little athleticism, but they have beaten some athletic teams due to great game planning and coaching in basketball..HOWEVER, in the second half of district play, athleticism took over....get it? ::)

[baddog]

If someone that I respect told me that, I would be insulted. Otherwise, it is laughable.

Why should I care why a game is won as long as I win?

Does is mean athletic teams are stupid.....just athletic? Does this mean intellectual teams wear clod hoppers and have two left feet. Is there a mixture where one can't be differentiated from the other, or can one play be smart and the next be athletic? Please explain oh great guru who hangs with nobodys.

Birds of a feather.....

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="baddog" post="1198660" timestamp="1332001905"]
If someone that I respect told me that, I would be insulted. Otherwise, it is laughable.

Why should I care why a game is won as long as I win?

Does is mean athletic teams are stupid.....just athletic? Does this mean intellectual teams wear clod hoppers and have two left feet. Is there a mixture where one can't be differentiated from the other, or can one play be smart and the next be athletic? Please explain oh great guru who hangs with nobodys.

Birds of a feather.....
[/quote]
Don't know you...don't really care to...but as long as the "disrespect" that you have for me stays on the world wide web, there are no real issues here...Now back to the topic...

There CAN be a mixture of both, and that is the point that I have been trying to get across since it came up...Athletic does NOT mean dumb....by any means...and yes, no one knows you, and you are still a nobody. ::)

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1198649" timestamp="1331999665"]
[quote author=baddog link=topic=97596.msg1198646#msg1198646 date=1331998943]
So is your HC trophy. Our case is bare of state trophies, but we have some DC trophies, which is where everyone starts.

Bird made everyone around him better, just like Perkins made you look like a better coach than you are.

Lehigh did not outsmart or out athlete anyone. They played the game of basketball better. Funny how you dodged the athletic part of my post. Everyone in basketball/sports is an athlete.

You should go to the comedy central forum. You'd be a smash hit.

All in good fun DV.
[/quote]
Once again, you attack ME...Its not about ME...You seem obsessed..I am talking about a specific topic, not ME...I have done PLENTY in the 1st chair, and there is lots to go, but what exactly have YOU done? Its not important, because no one really cares....STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT ME...I said YOUR SCHOOL would never win state...I said YOUR SCHOOL HAS NEVER WON STATE IN ANYTHING...I did not comment on "baddog" at all...Do you even KNOW an NBA player? Have you ever even won a Rec championship? How about intramurals? Been to college? Exactly...NO ONE CARES...Its tough being a nobody, huh, baddog? ;)

[quote author=stevenash link=topic=97596.msg1198642#msg1198642 date=1331998604]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=97596.msg1198630#msg1198630 date=1331993574]
Once again, its not about ME...I already own state rings, anyway.. ;)...I was talking about your school, not YOU...I've been...and you'll never go...not the issue..so stop making it one... 8)
Hey Nash, did Lehigh intellects stun Duke, or did they out athlete them? What about Norfolk State? Were they simply "smarter" than Missouri? ::)
Hey baddog....Michael Jordan was the best ever....Jerry West is the logo, and we all know why, but Bill Russell SHOULD have been, in that era...Jerry West? No...Michael Jordan....go ahead say West was better....Prove my point.. 8)
[/quote]

I did not see the Lehigh -duke or Missouri - Norfolk games so cant offer my opinion.  I can only assure you of this.  EVERY SINGLE time you try to suggest or infer racism has anything to do with this, I will have a response and will NEVER be railroaded or intimidated by those inferences.  I believe I stated this before but, with your "famous" pedigree, go ahead and tell me why the following is not correct.  If an individual aspires to become a good basketball player and knows he cant make himself into a player who is as quick, fast, or who jumps as high as his competitors, would it not be logical that he will try to concentrate on being a smarter player with some better skills in an effort to offset any physical disadvantage he may have?  Will he possibly put more work into shooting proficiency than someone else does to make himself a player someone wants on their team? Will he try to become more knowledgeable about positions on the court, responsibilities, etc?  Will he try to set that screen a little bit better than the average player does so as to become a better player?  Will he make an effort to perhaps be a little more cerebral than someone else is because he has no choice and making one or two more good decisions in a contest just might help his game?  If a coach has a group of these types of players ( yes, the ones who cant run as fast or jump as high) is he going to concentrate on whatever strong points those players have in order to try to help them compete or will he spend his time trying to magically make them more athletic?  Additionally, let go of the "state rings" stuff because it is not nearly as big of a deal as you portray it to be.  If it is, you need to defer to Cbosha.
[/quote]

The funny thing is stevenash, I completely agree with what you are saying here...My "pedigree" has taught me that throughout the years..I have no idea why you keep placing emphasis on where I come from, but I am proud of my lineage...Proud family name...I was born in it..and as always, I know what I know..As for the state rings, that was a pun intended at someone else...My dad always taught me to never make that my greatest accomplishment in life, and I believe that. 

My issue with this whole athleticism vs. intellect is the fact that it IS for all practical purposes what AAW described...In your mind, if they are of the caucasion persuasion, they MUST be a smarter team..Nash, you know NOTHING about the intellectual capacity of the Vermont team, yet in your mind they were "smarter" than the Lamar players based on what? How they played? or how they LOOKED? I watched that game and saw a Vermont team that was bigger, well prepared, and just a better overall team than Lamar...Had nothing to do with how much smarter they were than the Lamar kids...Yes you may donate to Lamar and all, but that still does not change your view of those kids, because they don't look like you...Your mocking of my "pedigree" speaks volumes...I think you are a nice guy, nash...I really do, but I also think you have your biases when it comes to this particular topic...No harm in that...it is what it is.
[/quote]

The pedigree comment is simply short speak for what you always remind everybody of and nothing else.  Sorry, but you and AAW are not capable of knowing what is in my mind.  You make an assumption and proceed on that.  As I also stated earlier, Princeton is an excellent example of the point I was making and if I am not mistaken, that team often consists of blacks and whites.  The Vermont team I saw was more patient and had more options in their arsenal did than Lamar, neither of which has anything to do with skin color.  They also shot the ball considerably better which also has nothing to do with skin color but rather with practice and dedication.  We all know what you know Dickie but you also should know what you don't know ( if, in fact, you can accept that as a possibility)  One of the things  you don't know is how to  deal with a situation without [b]assuming [/b] there is a racial component to it.  If you are familiar with the last two coaching stops my relative had, you know very well that I have had plenty of exposure and relationships with kids of extremely varied backgrounds and have a reasonably good feel and appreciation for their subsequent different values, attitudes and upbringings.  Your background is pretty much limited to one side of the issue and I would suggest to you that mine is more varied and obviously for a much longer time.  I watched South Dakota State have Baylor in a lot of trouble early in the game but Baylor ultimately prevailed.  Why is that?  Was it because the South Dakota State team had athletes equal to Baylor?

[Rockin A]

Question #1:  If a FORMER assistant knows everything there is to know about basketball, then would one infer that CURRENT assistants know more or less about basketball?

Question #2:  Since Jerry West is the NBA logo, yet other players actually deserved to be the logo more than West, how many conspiracy theories does that make in someone's world?