Southeast Texas Football

[PN-G bamatex]

[quote name="knows2much" post="1352851" timestamp="1355147165"]
[quote author=PN-G bamakid link=topic=107288.msg1352721#msg1352721 date=1355099106]
I can't really speak to the other classifications, but in 4A (soon to be 5A, I guess), I think the problem in the playoffs has more to do with the discrepancy in enrollment numbers than it does the amount of money spent or the caliber of facilities. The range for the 4A classification is more than a thousand students. Sure, we have divisions in the playoffs, but even in DII, there's a huge discrepancy. PN-G played Manvel a few years ago in the regional semifinal. Manvel was almost a 5A school with about 2,000 students versus middle-of-the-pack PN-G with a little more than 1,400. I swear Manvel (which has since moved up a classification) had more kids suited out on the sidelines than most college programs I've seen, and that depth really showed in the second half. I'm sure the Nederland fans know what I'm talking about from the games against Dawson and Georgetown.

Now when it comes to some of the other areas of competition such as band and academics, I guarantee the funding is what makes the difference. Friendswood and Dawson at one time had enough money to bring in the people who wrote the UIL tests to tutor their students regularly while PN-G and LC-M could barely scrounge up enough money to send their kids to a single workshop. Dawson used to have a Baby Grand piano that did an accompaniment with their halftime show and Friendswood had a little sound booth mounted on a cart where they would have soloists play and/or sing.
[/quote]

You're really not going to like what happening after this next realignment then.
[/quote]

I haven't liked what's happened with the last two or three realignments so I don't see why I'd like what's coming with this one.

[PN-G bamatex]

[quote name="Richard Cranium" post="1352870" timestamp="1355150736"]
What do the top programs in the state have that SETX are school don't? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ And willing tax payers!!!!

When most of the population in this area live below the poverty level this is what you get.
[/quote]

[quote author=Richard Cranium link=topic=107288.msg1352873#msg1352873 date=1355151189]
Look at us at PNG. We cannot even raise enough $$ to build an indoor training facility.
[/quote]

You have to be fair about that. We just finished up a ~$120 Million bond that included a ~$9.5 Million total stadium overhaul and brand new facilities at the middle school level, and we're trying to build that indoor facility in the midst of a bad economy. If the recession hadn't happened, we probably wouldn't be having any problems coming up with the money.

[Javelina]

I seriously doubt any HS team has 19 coaches strictly for Varsity football.  Most programs have 10-12 HS coaches and about 4 middle school coaches.  On friday nights all coaches are usually there so it looks like there are 14-16 coaches for varsity.  You do not need fancy stuff to win state titles, ask La Marque.  yes nice things might get you a few move ins but that does not mean a title, ask Carthage who just got beat by El Campo.  Just cause you have the means to pay a coach a lot of money does not mean you will get the best.  You will get good coaches that apply but tradition of a school is sometimes more attractive than money. 

[cougar14]

[quote name="bruno994" post="1352994" timestamp="1355165819"]
As a husband of a teacher, you don't want me to get started on how much she would make if you broke it down by the hour that she spends at the school.  Not near enough...as far as discrepancy in enrollment numbers between schools in the same classification, that does not just occur in 4A, but in all 5 levels.  Examples: 5A- North Shore 4600, Memorial 2270.  4A- Central 1840, Lumberton 1087.  3A- Silsbee 822, Buna 450.  2A- Kirbyville 425, Newton 300.
[/quote]That's exactly why I say enrollment first, then an efficient passing game. We play in the district with SC (2019) and BH (1387). Last year 3a La Marque was in a district with three 4a schools with over 2k enrollment (Manvel, Friendswood, Dawson). Even with that enrollment though SC would have lost more games if they weren't strictly a passing team. You see what happened to the best defensive team in the area (Ned) once they played a team with an elite passing game. I think SC would've done the same to them. In the Austin area they spread it to throw it, down here we spread it to run it and throw it when we need to. Harder to recover on a mistake on a passing play than one on a running play. Over here we want to run the ball and play defense, in Austin they want to sling it and just make a play on defense. I don't think money influences any of those decisions. 

[phunter308]

So why does the SEC win so many National Titles. They run the ball and play defense . Then they throw the ball around. Unlike alot of schools the spread is a package not an every down scheme.

[chevy13]

There is something to be said for being able to pay a coach well enough to keep him.  You look at even the smallest schools that can keep ba good coach and establish a program from junior football all the way to high school.  A perfect example is WOS they have great involvement from humor all the way up and it shows.  So having money to keep a winning coach is key and getting your community behind your team helps a lot as well.  Big fancy stadiums are nice,  but they can't replace a steady program with  consistency and support.

[fwoodfan]

[quote name="Txdragon" post="1352866" timestamp="1355150228"]
What I want to know is how is the Robin Hood law being administered. I see WOS sending several million dollars a year to Bridge City and WOS barely being able to afford anything. Then I see schools up in North Texas building college size stadiums. I see Friendswood with their own tractor trailor rig just to haul band instruments. The state of Texas needs to look anew at public school funding. Someone mentioned Jumbotrons, that is just to bring in better crowds, remember at most schools the football program is the primary revenue for the entire schools sports program. I can see a Jumbotron as an investment. I know WOS used to host at least one round of playoff football every now and then. Would field turf and a Jumbotron put them in the mix to make revenue again? Debatable I think.
[/quote]

The Friendswood Band does have a semi that hauls their equipment, but no district money went to buy it.  The money for that and for most of the extra's that have been attributed to Friendswood programs is donated or collected from fundraisers.  No tax dollars are spent on those things because Friendswood ISD is one of the most cash strapped in the area.  People in Friendswood may have more money than the people in other communities, but the district struggles with budget issues every year because the tax base is completely residential.

Friendswood students pay significant amounts of money to participate in Football, Band, etc. I tell people all the time -- in Friendswood the people have money but the school doesnt.

The enrollment argument is sound -- but keep in mind that Friendswood is bigger than Texas City, but TC beat us handily this year.

[PN-G bamatex]

[quote name="Txdragon" post="1352866" timestamp="1355150228"]
What I want to know is how is the Robin Hood law being administered. I see WOS sending several million dollars a year to Bridge City and WOS barely being able to afford anything. Then I see schools up in North Texas building college size stadiums. I see Friendswood with their own tractor trailor rig just to haul band instruments. The state of Texas needs to look anew at public school funding. Someone mentioned Jumbotrons, that is just to bring in better crowds, remember at most schools the football program is the primary revenue for the entire schools sports program. I can see a Jumbotron as an investment. I know WOS used to host at least one round of playoff football every now and then. Would field turf and a Jumbotron put them in the mix to make revenue again? Debatable I think.
[/quote]

The state establishes what it calls the "Equalized Wealth Level" based on a district's total taxable property value per student and uses that to determine how much funding it will cut from schools that are above the EWL range and how much extra it will hand to schools that are below the EWL range. Originally, the system literally required "rich" districts to transfer money to "poor" districts directly, but the state supreme court said that was bogus, so the state decided to keep the same formula but deduct the money it would have originally required the districts to forfeit from what they send to the districts rather than have the districts write the checks themselves.

Originally, there were only 30 school districts above the EWL in the entire state. Today, there are more than 300 out of roughly a thousand. PN-G has been dealing with this problem for more than ten years (to the tune of $13+ Million a year - almost 30% our district's budget) because a hefty portion of our district is industrial and that drives our tax base up, and Nederland was added to the list of "rich" districts this year.

It's total crap. I've been saying forever that the state would be much better off if they would tie funding to performance levels and then add some leeway for schools with low property values to that.

[77]

Sounds just like wealth redistribution!  The govt. loves doin that!

[swampdude]

[quote name="Txdragon" post="1352866" timestamp="1355150228"]
What I want to know is how is the Robin Hood law being administered. I see WOS sending several million dollars a year to Bridge City and WOS barely being able to afford anything. Then I see schools up in North Texas building college size stadiums. I see Friendswood with their own tractor trailor rig just to haul band instruments. The state of Texas needs to look anew at public school funding. Someone mentioned Jumbotrons, that is just to bring in better crowds, remember at most schools the football program is the primary revenue for the entire schools sports program. I can see a Jumbotron as an investment. I know WOS used to host at least one round of playoff football every now and then. Would field turf and a Jumbotron put them in the mix to make revenue again? Debatable I think.
[/quote]There is no Robin Hood plan.  Bridge City would love for WOCCISD to send us a million or two but that has not happened in many years.  Check with your admin. or school board if you don't believe it.

[PN-G bamatex]

[quote name="swampdude" post="1353297" timestamp="1355195087"]
[quote author=Txdragon link=topic=107288.msg1352866#msg1352866 date=1355150228]
What I want to know is how is the Robin Hood law being administered. I see WOS sending several million dollars a year to Bridge City and WOS barely being able to afford anything. Then I see schools up in North Texas building college size stadiums. I see Friendswood with their own tractor trailor rig just to haul band instruments. The state of Texas needs to look anew at public school funding. Someone mentioned Jumbotrons, that is just to bring in better crowds, remember at most schools the football program is the primary revenue for the entire schools sports program. I can see a Jumbotron as an investment. I know WOS used to host at least one round of playoff football every now and then. Would field turf and a Jumbotron put them in the mix to make revenue again? Debatable I think.
[/quote]There is no Robin Hood plan.  Bridge City would love for WOCCISD to send us a million or two but that has not happened in many years.  Check with your admin. or school board if you don't believe it.
[/quote]

Robin Hood is still very much alive and well in the state of Texas.

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Nederland-ISD-added-to-state-s-Robin-Hood-list-3857351.php#photo-3441122

Bridge City may not be getting EWL transfers, but that doesn't mean nobody is.

[ChampionEagles]

[quote name="77" post="1353227" timestamp="1355189742"]
Sounds just like wealth redistribution!  The govt. loves doin that!
[/quote]

Heck, I would love doing it if it was going in my bank account!  ;)

[Razor]

probably for a different forum but wealth redistribution = socialism

[PN-G bamatex]

I'm probably going to upset a lot of people by saying this and I know she was very popular while in office, but Ann Richards did two things that really hurt Texas. The first was holding up the concealed handweapons permits bill, which George Bush later made up for by signing it into law. The second was the Robin Hood plan, which we've never quite gotten rid of. They've tweaked it, changed the name and tied a little tax break to it, but the basic system is still very much in operation, and it's hurting more school districts every year.

Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

[bh89-2]

[quote name="Tim Riggins" post="1352190" timestamp="1355014025"]
Most districts just do not have that kind of money to spend on coaching and athletics, just a fact. Also it's hard to get bond issues passed in this area.  Facilities have much to do with recruiting in college, talent wins out in high school.
[/quote]

O good LORD man, don't start another Nederland Bond Thread....... ;D ;D  P.S.  BH has no issue passing bonds.  ;) ;)

SETX does not do well in the playoffs because we don't have very good teams.  It also has a lot to do with match-ups in the post season.  There is a HUGE difference between your good district championship team and a State Finalist team.  Especially in 3A, 4 A and 5 A.  When you get to 2 A it's who has that great defensive team and two special offensive athletes. 

Look at Summer Creek as an example.  They were a VERY GOOD team, but because of match-ups they ran into what is likley a state contender and got killed.  Nederland is another example.  Good district team, not even close to a state contender.  Same with WOS, because of match-ups, got routed by a likely state championship team.  SETX = Pretenders.  Just like our Houston Texans.

[longball24]

Money does play a roll in a schools ability to win, but mostly it is attitude. The community the school administration coaches and the parents of the kids. You can go to the UIL Football archives and look up the past state champions as far back as you like most all are from central northeast texas and west texas. When you do get one from east texas it is the same team every time. newton, yes their are a few exceptions. What is the problem when schools turn out college bound athletes and cant win.       

[ChampionEagles]

If parents are shopping their kids around to be great athletes and looking for turf and jumbotrons to assess the quality of enrolling their kids there, they have no idea what makes a great athlete. Every GREAT athlete I ever knew, God made them. And the truly great ones worked their butts off to get better. You cannot make a great running back out of a kid that runs a 5.0 40. I don't care how many turf fields you put him on. Now, any athlete can enhance their abilities with hard work, determination, coaching, and support from their parents. And to say that Carthage( as an example) has seen it's success due to turf field and community support to buy a jumbo tron, shows how much someone really knows about what it takes to make a team. And I am not missing the point. The point is I do not believe there are massive numbers of people shopping their kids around for athletic purposes. I do not believe turf fields and jumbo trons make programs successful. I do believe economic growth brings not only these things but influx of people and numbers of children which brings with that the talent of those kids. The more kids to choose from, the more natural talent to choose from. Couple this with good coaching and community support and success might follow.

[77]

[quote name="ChampionEagles" post="1353453" timestamp="1355236007"]
If parents are shopping their kids around to be great athletes and looking for turf and jumbotrons to assess the quality of enrolling their kids there, they have no idea what makes a great athlete. Every GREAT athlete I ever knew, God made them. And the truly great ones worked their butts off to get better. You cannot make a great running back out of a kid that runs a 5.0 40. I don't care how many turf fields you put him on. Now, any athlete can enhance their abilities with hard work, determination, coaching, and support from their parents. And to say that Carthage( as an example) has seen it's success due to turf field and community support to buy a jumbo tron, shows how much someone really knows about what it takes to make a team. And I am not missing the point. The point is I do not believe there are massive numbers of people shopping their kids around for athletic purposes. I do not believe turf fields and jumbo trons make programs successful. I do believe economic growth brings not only these things but influx of people and numbers of children which brings with that the talent of those kids. The more kids to choose from, the more natural talent to choose from. Couple this with good coaching and community support and success might follow.
[/quote]Well said!

[knows2much]

haha...you guys are really cracking me up.

It's not about money! It doesn't matter how many coaches you have! It's not about facilities!  It's pure desire! Want to! Work ethic!

This is not Rocky IV guys.. Kids today are not the same.  They need a reason to want to play.  A reason to want to go in the weight room. A reason to be a part of something. 

If it doesn't matter...then let's keep a count of who wins state championships (in football), and where those schools come from.  Let's compare the money being spent on each school for athletics.  Bottom line..you don't dish out some change, you'll never get truly great coaches, you'll never have as many kids play, and those kids won't have as much reason to "feel a part of something".  I'm not saying that's ALWAYS the case.  But it is most of the time.

By the way...the best athletes I've ever seen, played with, played against...were always on the lower end of the "work ethic" chart.  Most kids that work there butts off will never be as talented as the few who don't have to work at all.

[77]

My kids were raised to believe you work for what you get and hard work is how you earn it! And yes I get it!  You just keep handing out your trophies!jmo

[ChampionEagles]

[quote name="knows2much" post="1353507" timestamp="1355242751"]
haha...you guys are really cracking me up.

It's not about money! It doesn't matter how many coaches you have! It's not about facilities!  It's pure desire! Want to! Work ethic!

This is not Rocky IV guys.. Kids today are not the same.  They need a reason to want to play.  A reason to want to go in the weight room. A reason to be a part of something. 

If it doesn't matter...then let's keep a count of who wins state championships (in football), and where those schools come from.  Let's compare the money being spent on each school for athletics.  Bottom line..you don't dish out some change, you'll never get truly great coaches, you'll never have as many kids play, and those kids won't have as much reason to "feel a part of something".  I'm not saying that's ALWAYS the case.  But it is most of the time.

By the way...the best athletes I've ever seen, played with, played against...were always on the lower end of the "work ethic" chart.  Most kids that work there butts off will never be as talented as the few who don't have to work at all.
[/quote]

Your right about kids needing reasons. The reasons though are not what your saying. To be successful they have to have desire and drive. If your serious with all this, study poor little Newton in detail to get your answer. Dirt poor school district with students from an area with little economic opportunity for parents that are struggling to make a living. An actual (confirmed by snap shot day figures) school enrollment that has been in decline for 10 years. Yet the football program remains one of the areas elite year end and year out. Talent comes and goes, yet wins remain consistent. Why? The answer I hear that is so laughable is "Ya'll have better athletes". The real question is why do we have those athletes. Why do our kids desire to lift weights and run all year long? Why do they desire to win? Why do they want to be, not just good, but great? A percentage that have come through Newton's program don't even have the support of any family. Because they have little or no family life. But they keep coming. Year in and year out. Why. Newton has no turf. No video screen at all, mush less a jumbo tron. No tv station, no radio station. A small weekly newspaper. To me you are vastly over estimating the importance of dollar driven rewards and over compensating for reasons of failure. There are more rewarding things for kids than just buying them a new toy.

[77]

And those kids from Newton have done a great service to McNeese State and other colleges and they know they can make it to college through hard work on the field in some cases the only way they will get to attend! 

[ChampionEagles]

[quote name="77" post="1353519" timestamp="1355245144"]
And those kids from Newton have done a great service to McNeese State and other colleges and they know they can make it to college through hard work on the field in some cases the only way they will get to attend!
[/quote]

So true. I think I'm correct in saying that there have been more kids from Newton signed to scholarships at McNeese State than from any other school district they recruit. Pretty good for a small, poor school football program. Especially considering the success McNeese has had over the years. Viator was a speaker at Coach Barbay's memorial and even referred to McNeese as Newton East. I could name a long list of kids that scholarship was the only way they would have ever gotten a college degree.

[fwoodfan]

[quote name="knows2much" post="1353507" timestamp="1355242751"]
haha...you guys are really cracking me up.

It's not about money! It doesn't matter how many coaches you have! It's not about facilities!  It's pure desire! Want to! Work ethic!

This is not Rocky IV guys.. Kids today are not the same.  They need a reason to want to play.  A reason to want to go in the weight room. A reason to be a part of something. 

If it doesn't matter...then let's keep a count of who wins state championships (in football), and where those schools come from.  Let's compare the money being spent on each school for athletics.  Bottom line..you don't dish out some change, you'll never get truly great coaches, you'll never have as many kids play, and those kids won't have as much reason to "feel a part of something".  I'm not saying that's ALWAYS the case.  But it is most of the time.

By the way...the best athletes I've ever seen, played with, played against...were always on the lower end of the "work ethic" chart.  Most kids that work there butts off will never be as talented as the few who don't have to work at all.
[/quote]

Obviously, you are unhappy with the out come of last weeks games, but your generalizations are pretty weak.

First, nobody said money, facilities, and coaching dont make any difference.  But, they dont make all the difference.  Work ethic, dedication, community support and a winning tradition are also important and often can help teams over come shortages in money, facilities, and coaching.  Its never all about one thing.

Second, kids have changed, but teams dont win because their kids want to wear a cool uniform, play on a turf field, be on a jumbo-tron, or work out in a great weight room.  They win because they do the work regardless of the material things they have to work with.

Third, if you look back at state champions from the past 10 years or so you will find a mix of rich and poor schools with state championships. 

Fourth, do you have access to the amount of money each school spends on football each year.  If you dont then you are basing your statements on your perception of how much money each school has and spends.

Finally, if the "best" athletes you have seen, played with, and against had a low work ethic then you havent spent much time around really great athletes.  I've known professional football, D1 college players, professional baseball, college baseball, and high school state champs in track, volleyball, and cross country and all of them combined talent with an above average, if not exceptional, work ethic.

[ChampionEagles]

[quote name="fwoodfan" post="1353655" timestamp="1355273322"]
[quote author=knows2much link=topic=107288.msg1353507#msg1353507 date=1355242751]
haha...you guys are really cracking me up.

It's not about money! It doesn't matter how many coaches you have! It's not about facilities!  It's pure desire! Want to! Work ethic!

This is not Rocky IV guys.. Kids today are not the same.  They need a reason to want to play.  A reason to want to go in the weight room. A reason to be a part of something. 

If it doesn't matter...then let's keep a count of who wins state championships (in football), and where those schools come from.  Let's compare the money being spent on each school for athletics.  Bottom line..you don't dish out some change, you'll never get truly great coaches, you'll never have as many kids play, and those kids won't have as much reason to "feel a part of something".  I'm not saying that's ALWAYS the case.  But it is most of the time.

By the way...the best athletes I've ever seen, played with, played against...were always on the lower end of the "work ethic" chart.  Most kids that work there butts off will never be as talented as the few who don't have to work at all.
[/quote]

Obviously, you are unhappy with the out come of last weeks games, but your generalizations are pretty weak.

First, nobody said money, facilities, and coaching dont make any difference.  But, they dont make all the difference.  Work ethic, dedication, community support and a winning tradition are also important and often can help teams over come shortages in money, facilities, and coaching.  Its never all about one thing.

Second, kids have changed, but teams dont win because their kids want to wear a cool uniform, play on a turf field, be on a jumbo-tron, or work out in a great weight room.  They win because they do the work regardless of the material things they have to work with.

Third, if you look back at state champions from the past 10 years or so you will find a mix of rich and poor schools with state championships. 

Fourth, do you have access to the amount of money each school spends on football each year.  If you dont then you are basing your statements on your perception of how much money each school has and spends.

Finally, if the "best" athletes you have seen, played with, and against had a low work ethic then you havent spent much time around really great athletes.  I've known professional football, D1 college players, professional baseball, college baseball, and high school state champs in track, volleyball, and cross country and all of them combined talent with an above average, if not exceptional, work ethic.
[/quote]

Very well said. +1