**#2 HARDIN-JEFFERSON vs. #3 SILSBEE @ Ford Park/SILSBEE WINS 81-76!!

[stevenash]

[quote name="ST413" post="1364162" timestamp="1358364810"]
Whether they were fouls in the first half doesn't matter.  They definitely were in the second.  My point was that in the fourth quarter the biggest opponent the hawks had was the clock.  We needed to play good defense without reaching or trying for the tough steals and stopping that clock.  We needed good offensive possessions to keep that clock running.  Yes hj started hitting 3's but not everyone was going to go in. Could the game still have gotten close.....sure.  We just didn't need to help by stopping the clock so much.
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but respectfully disagree on similar fouls not being called in the first half and whether or not they mattered.  Some of those that were not called in the first half led to scores for Silsbee and unproductive  possessions for HJ, hence the "reward" theory for Silsbee in the first half.  I also understand your theory about not stopping the clock, but , just for examples sake, keep in mind that three of those "unneccessary Silsbee reaching fouls" ,while stopping the clock three different times, could have been offset by HJ making just one three pointer in one possession (one made three pointer vs three trips to the line where 1 shot was made each time). ( If that hypothetical three pointer is made and no  "reaching"fouls are committed, that gives HJ two more "unfouled" possessions to try to generate more points than the 1 they earn on each trip to the line)  Most teams play a particular style and choose to live and die by it.  Silsbee lived by it for three quarters and had problems for 1 quarter.  Hj died by it for three quarters and did well for one quarter.  Personally, I would have much preferred to see HJ zone Silsbee just as Nederland did but they are paying somebody else to make those decisions.  I guess those in power at HJ feel that they have people better qualified than me ;D

[ST413]

We do live and die by our style but I was not far from the coaches and could see them trying to get the players to stop the fouling as well as the quick shots.  No I didn't hear what was said but it appeared that way to me.  And yes I understand your theory but the question is how long would it take time wise to have those three possessions.  It would have taken a minimum of 12 possessions for hj to make the 3's to cover almost all of those points.  That would have eaten a large amount of that clock,  especially if we had some good possessions on the other end. And yes this is only my opinion and they definitely are paying the ones who need to be making those decisions on both sides instead of me.  I would like to know what hj's free throw numbers were in that fourth quArter though. In my mind it seemed better than the rest of the game but that may have just been my perception with the game getting tight.

[stevenash]

I think HJ foul shooting was definitely better in fourth quarter as was most everything they did.  I suppose one can contend that this was due to a Silsbee falloff or an HJ improvement.  If you think about it, this game, to my way of thinking, was remarkably similar to first game last year but it didnt come down to a final shot in the last couple of seconds.  Silsbee building big lead early in the game and then HJ trying to comeback.  Who knows, maybe it is possible that the amount of energy expended by Silsbee in the early part of the game ( which served them well) caused them to not be able to defend quite as efficiently late in the game (hence the reaching fouls you mentioned) that may have helped HJ make a comeback.  On the other hand, if they hadnt played that aggressive defense in the first half, they may not have had as big a lead to work with at the half.  My guess is that it is not likely that any team can maintain the same level of proficiency throughout a game if the competition is reasonable.

[BADSANTA]

Yates can! Not they can but they will!

[Dick Vitale]

Truth is HJ played awful for 3 quarters, Silsbee was tougher, played harder and played with the energy to be up 30. However, you MUST give credit to Silsbee for causing HJ to play that way for most of the game. That NBA 3 point line had those kids shooting 30 footers as well. I also think that playing at Ford Park took away from this game tremendously. My two cents... 8)

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1364175" timestamp="1358366581"]
[quote author=ST413 link=topic=108282.msg1364162#msg1364162 date=1358364810]
Whether they were fouls in the first half doesn't matter.  They definitely were in the second.  My point was that in the fourth quarter the biggest opponent the hawks had was the clock.  We needed to play good defense without reaching or trying for the tough steals and stopping that clock.  We needed good offensive possessions to keep that clock running.  Yes hj started hitting 3's but not everyone was going to go in. Could the game still have gotten close.....sure.  We just didn't need to help by stopping the clock so much.
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but respectfully disagree on similar fouls not being called in the first half and whether or not they mattered.  Some of those that were not called in the first half led to scores for Silsbee and unproductive  possessions for HJ, hence the "reward" theory for Silsbee in the first half.  I also understand your theory about not stopping the clock, but , just for examples sake, keep in mind that three of those "unneccessary Silsbee reaching fouls" ,while stopping the clock three different times, could have been offset by HJ making just one three pointer in one possession (one made three pointer vs three trips to the line where 1 shot was made each time). ( If that hypothetical three pointer is made and no  "reaching"fouls are committed, that gives HJ two more "unfouled" possessions to try to generate more points than the 1 they earn on each trip to the line)  Most teams play a particular style and choose to live and die by it.  Silsbee lived by it for three quarters and had problems for 1 quarter.  Hj died by it for three quarters and did well for one quarter.  Personally, I would have much preferred to see HJ zone Silsbee just as Nederland did but they are paying somebody else to make those decisions.  I guess those in power at HJ feel that they have people better qualified than me ;D
[/quote] The nuts do not not fall far from tree  8)

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1364199" timestamp="1358370887"]
Truth is HJ played awful for 3 quarters, Silsbee was tougher, played harder and played with the energy to be up 30. However, you MUST give credit to Silsbee for causing HJ to play that way for most of the game. That NBA 3 point line had those kids shooting 30 footers as well. I also think that playing at Ford Park took away from this game tremendously. My two cents... 8)
[/quote] Too bad we don't have a basketball arena in the area for high school games :(

[ST413]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1364187" timestamp="1358369118"]
I think HJ foul shooting was definitely better in fourth quarter as was most everything they did.  I suppose one can contend that this was due to a Silsbee falloff or an HJ improvement.  If you think about it, this game, to my way of thinking, was remarkably similar to first game last year but it didnt come down to a final shot in the last couple of seconds.  Silsbee building big lead early in the game and then HJ trying to comeback.  Who knows, maybe it is possible that the amount of energy expended by Silsbee in the early part of the game ( which served them well) caused them to not be able to defend quite as efficiently late in the game (hence the reaching fouls you mentioned) that may have helped HJ make a comeback.  On the other hand, if they hadnt played that aggressive defense in the first half, they may not have had as big a lead to work with at the half.  My guess is that it is not likely that any team can maintain the same level of proficiency throughout a game if the competition is reasonable.
[/quote]

The free throws were definitely an improvement on Hjs part as was their play. Like BS said they played that quarter like their life depended on it.  You do bring up a good point with the energy thing though.  I made the comment last night during that last quarter that that is the time we usually have the other team tired and can pull away.  Not sure if it was our energy being gone or being scared of fouls but our defense lacked some intensity at that time.  However like I said before the Tigers do have a tendency to relax late in the game with a sizable lead and allow other teams to get some momentum going.  Lots of times the other team isn't capable of taking full advantage of this.  HJ is and dud last night.  They could have folded but in typical hj style they made that big run and capitalized on each Tiger mistake forced or not.  I don't know if being tired had anything to do with the reach in fouls or not.  I know it can but like you said that is our style.  We did that throughout the entire game,  maybe we were slower with it at the end drawing fouls,  And maybe not.

[BLUEDOVE3]

Is it just possible that by HJ playing a [color=red]softer schedule[/color] and Silsbee playing the [color=red]tougher schedule[/color], everything turned out the way it was suppose to end. And,, just maybe the cross country running time could have been used more productively in the gym?

[stevenash]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1364207" timestamp="1358372280"]
Is it just possible that by HJ playing a [color=red]softer schedule[/color] and Silsbee playing the [color=red]tougher schedule[/color], everything turned out the way it was suppose to end. And,, just maybe the cross country running time could have been used more productively in the gym?
[/quote]

No doubt about it. 

[whsalum]

I gotta agree with Dickie V about the arena taking away from the game.I know it's a pain to stand in line and have folks turned away at the gate but this game had no emotion at all.The biggest difference I saw last night in the play of the two team was HJ playing a relatively soft 2-3 zone.I know the coaches know their personell better than anyone and I look forward to seeing the adjustments they make in round 2.

[stevenash]

There were some decent adjustments made in the fourth quarter

[BLUEDOVE3]

Playing a softer schedules tends to delay your decision process in making adjustments UNTIL the 4th qtr ;D

[stevenash]

If HJs preseason schedule had included Duncanville and Dallas Kimball, I believe the result from Tuesday night would have been the same.  Silsbee won the first game last year under pretty similar circumstances.  And yet, at the end of the year, both Silsbee and HJ lost to the same team at the regionals in two very close games.  Last years results ( similar losses at regionals and split during regular season) does not suggest that the "alleged weak schedule" spawned any lesser results than the "alleged strong schedule"

[freeze 1914]

Dove I believe the same thing. Tougher teams and closer games will get you ready for tough situations. When you blowing people out all season and then you find yourself in a close game, you dont know to adjust because you have never been in  that situation before. Just my opinion....

[stevenash]

Last year speaks volumes.  Mr Sutherland has an EXTREMELY distinguished coaching resume at several different schools and until one has similar credentials, one looks a little foolish suggesting they know better methods than he does.

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1364345" timestamp="1358433648"]
Last year speaks volumes.  Mr Sutherland has an EXTREMELY distinguished coaching resume at several different schools and until one has similar credentials, one looks a little foolish suggesting they know better methods than he does.
[/quote]Nash, you know Freeze1914 is correct.  Nash, repeat after me several times, "HJ's program is not perfect."  :D

[KHSAlum400]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1364350" timestamp="1358434841"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108282.msg1364345#msg1364345 date=1358433648]
Last year speaks volumes.  Mr Sutherland has an EXTREMELY distinguished coaching resume at several different schools and until one has similar credentials, one looks a little foolish suggesting they know better methods than he does.
[/quote]Nash, you know Freeze1914 is correct.  Nash, repeat after me several times, "HJ's program is not perfect."  :D
[/quote]

:D :D ;D

[BADSANTA]

Why does HJ choose not to play a harder schedule? They play some local 4A and a ton of 2A schools. No school they have played so far this year besides Central and Longview could stay in the gym with Silsbee. Not even Kountze!

[BLUEDOVE3]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1364353" timestamp="1358435496"]
Why does HJ choose not to play a harder schedule? They play some local 4A and a ton of 2A schools. No school they have played so far this year besides Central and Longview could stay in the gym with Silsbee. Not even Kountze!
[/quote]Maybe:
to:

1. Pad your stats----- get State rankings

2. Pad your stats-- to get S.E.Texas rankings

3. Pad your stats---  ::) ::)

[BADSANTA]

I agree about the stat padding, but if u have a good team why not play the best of the best?

[BMTSoulja1]

[quote name="BADSANTA" post="1364353" timestamp="1358435496"]
Why does HJ choose not to play a harder schedule? They play some local 4A and a ton of 2A schools. No school they have played so far this year besides Central and Longview could stay in the gym with Silsbee. Not even Kountze!
[/quote] You are aware that Kountze have already beaten Silsbee by 20 already, right?

[freeze 1914]

[quote name="BLUEDOVE3" post="1364354" timestamp="1358435708"]
[quote author=BADSANTA link=topic=108282.msg1364353#msg1364353 date=1358435496]
Why does HJ choose not to play a harder schedule? They play some local 4A and a ton of 2A schools. No school they have played so far this year besides Central and Longview could stay in the gym with Silsbee. Not even Kountze!
[/quote]Maybe:
to:

1. Pad your stats----- get State rankings

2. Pad your stats-- to get S.E.Texas rankings

3. Pad your stats---  ::) ::)
[/quote]


Exactly.

[BLUEDOVE3]

I guess I better stay away from Sour Lake for awhile  ;D

[txbuick69]

Only because half the basketball team was playing football when they play Kountze. I think if these two played now, Silsbee would blow Kountze out the gym..