*Nederland at Beaumont Ozen Updates*/Nederland wins 50-45 in OT!!!

[Honest Abe]

Funny how you can be 99.9% sure about something earlier today only to be proven wrong, yet you get on here 10 minutes later acting like WE are a bunch of Dumb--- who don't have a clue about anything basketball related. Seems that more than just yourself actually KNOWS something about Bball or has an opinion about it. Do you really believe you are a basketball god or something? Come on man!!

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371096" timestamp="1360267569"]
That Vidor team in 2004 had some really good SENIORS in that program, aside from the fact that English CAN coach...See unlike you, I acknowledge when guys can coach...You folks that really do not understand the game tend to think that since Vidor beat Ozen that year (and still did not win district) it makes English a better coach...Though he is good, the resumes are FAR from equal.
[/quote]How many of Vidor's players went D1 that year? ZERO!!! The big kid played at a D2 school. McMurray maybe??
Hardly the caliber of talent Ozen had that year. Are you telling me Boutte would have some the same with the Vidor program AND the Nederland program?? I'll answer that one, no way!! ::)
Do you believe English would not have taken to/won state as the coach at Ozen during those years? With all of that talent, I think so! ;)

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371092" timestamp="1360267320"]
Man are you serious? Is Trent Johnson a better coach than Bill Self because they lost at TCU last night? LOOK AT THE RECORD vs. English!! It's like 35-3! You want to talk about being outcoached? That 2004 team was basically a JV team, and they went to the regional tourney and won the district OUTRIGHT! Thats not a GREAT coaching job? You people amaze me at your thought process when it comes to non-white coaches and teams....Contrary to what you folks think, we didn't just roll the balls out and win state! Those kids were COACHED.
[/quote]who suggested Trent Johnson is a better coach than bill Self?

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371096" timestamp="1360267569"]
That Vidor team in 2004 had some really good SENIORS in that program, aside from the fact that English CAN coach...See unlike you, I acknowledge when guys can coach...You folks that really do not understand the game tend to think that since Vidor beat Ozen that year (and still did not win district) it makes English a better coach...Though he is good, the resumes are FAR from equal.
[/quote]

I think it is more delusional to sincerely believe that only one or two people have the "real knowledge and experience" to be a good coach.  English has not had the luxury of going to programs where a basketball tradition already existed or where the talent pool was fertile. If coach A gets hired at Silsbee or HJ and coach B gets hired the same day at Bridge City, will a district title by coach A be a greater accomplishment than  a 3rd place finish by Coach B at Bridge City?  I think not. 

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="Honest Abe" post="1371100" timestamp="1360267735"]
Funny how you can be 99.9% sure about something earlier today only to be proven wrong, yet you get on here 10 minutes later acting like WE are a bunch of Dumb--- who don't have a clue about anything basketball related. Seems that more than just yourself actually KNOWS something about Bball or has an opinion about it. Do you really believe you are a basketball god or something? Come on man!!
[/quote]\
I know what I know...Hate it or love, it is what it is....I grew up around PA Lincoln basketball, for obvious reasons, but I played in Houston...Heck we beat Lincoln by 20 that year, but we knew how good they were still. I had no idea PNG beat them, since it seemed so far fetched, but apparently they did...I am not perfect, but I know my sh--! Hate it or love, you have to respect it.... ;)

[quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=108974.msg1371102#msg1371102 date=1360267913]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371096#msg1371096 date=1360267569]
That Vidor team in 2004 had some really good SENIORS in that program, aside from the fact that English CAN coach...See unlike you, I acknowledge when guys can coach...You folks that really do not understand the game tend to think that since Vidor beat Ozen that year (and still did not win district) it makes English a better coach...Though he is good, the resumes are FAR from equal.
[/quote]How many of Vidor's players went D1 that year? ZERO!!! The big kid played at a D2 school. McMurray maybe??
Hardly the caliber of talent Ozen had that year. Are you telling me Boutte would have some the same with the Vidor program AND the Nederland program?? I'll answer that one, no way!! ::)
[/quote]
So you are saying Boutte could NOT coach and English is better? I would say that 3 and FOREVER vs. Boutte says otherwise....Like I said, you folks in SE Texas REFUSE to give credit where it is due, and the reasons are sickening...

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371107" timestamp="1360268186"]
[quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=108974.msg1371100#msg1371100 date=1360267735]
Funny how you can be 99.9% sure about something earlier today only to be proven wrong, yet you get on here 10 minutes later acting like WE are a bunch of Dumb--- who don't have a clue about anything basketball related. Seems that more than just yourself actually KNOWS something about Bball or has an opinion about it. Do you really believe you are a basketball god or something? Come on man!!
[/quote]\
I know what I know...Hate it or love, it is what it is....I grew up around PA Lincoln basketball, for obvious reasons, but I played in Houston...Heck we beat Lincoln by 20 that year, but we knew how good they were still. I had no idea PNG beat them, since it seemed so far fetched, but apparently they did...I am not perfect, but I know my sh--! Hate it or love, you have to respect it.... ;)

[quote author=Honest Abe link=topic=108974.msg1371102#msg1371102 date=1360267913]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371096#msg1371096 date=1360267569]
That Vidor team in 2004 had some really good SENIORS in that program, aside from the fact that English CAN coach...See unlike you, I acknowledge when guys can coach...You folks that really do not understand the game tend to think that since Vidor beat Ozen that year (and still did not win district) it makes English a better coach...Though he is good, the resumes are FAR from equal.
[/quote]How many of Vidor's players went D1 that year? ZERO!!! The big kid played at a D2 school. McMurray maybe??
Hardly the caliber of talent Ozen had that year. Are you telling me Boutte would have some the same with the Vidor program AND the Nederland program?? I'll answer that one, no way!! ::)
[/quote]
So you are saying Boutte could NOT coach and English is better? I would say that 3 and FOREVER vs. Boutte says otherwise....Like I said, you folks in SE Texas REFUSE to give credit where it is due, and the reasons are sickening...
[/quote]I NEVER said Boutte could not coach. I just don't think he would have won as the coach at Vidor or Nederland. Who is NOT giving credit other than YOU!! You are trying to compare apples to oranges, and we are calling you out on it.

[Bigdog]

Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371114" timestamp="1360268672"]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.

[Bigdog]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371115" timestamp="1360268833"]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Kind of like what English has done, huh?  Bringing two programs from doormat to competitive teams.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371117" timestamp="1360268985"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Kind of like what English has done, huh?  Bringing two programs from doormat to competitive teams.
[/quote]
I have never doubted what English has done....I KNOW the guy can coach...What about bringing a program from NON EXISTING to WINNING STATE...(in 4 years, mind you)...Some want to lessen THAT accomplishment, and say it was due to talent....BS!

[Bigdog]

I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371115" timestamp="1360268833"]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you?

[stevenash]

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371117" timestamp="1360268985"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Kind of like what English has done, huh?  Bringing two programs from doormat to competitive teams.
[/quote]

Nope- not at all- Boutte has never had to take over a "doormat"

[BIG SHOW]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371115" timestamp="1360268833"]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]
That's something we will never know... The truth is that Boutte and English are great coaches.  Also you can't compare records to both these coaches.  They do the best they can with the talent there given. THE TRUTH IS Boutte has had alot more talent to work with over his career, and not only more than English but more than alot of other coaches across the area and that's a fact. 

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371121" timestamp="1360269362"]
I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor.
[/quote]
OK, but would you agree that Westbrook, Silsbee, and Central for example ALL had talented enough teams to win or even GO to state, but did not make it? It takes MORE than talent alone to win it all...Coaching plays a HUGE factor in winning big. Particularly at the 4A and 5A level...These guys REFUSE to acknowledge what was done by him was special over the years, by making the excuse of built in talent as if NO WORK was involved..THAT is what burns my hide about it! >:(

[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371122#msg1371122 date=1360269496]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you?
[/quote]
He was at Kountze from 87-89...He did well there, just had not won state yet in HIS FIRST TWO YEARS OF COACHING, period...Right out of college, mind you...Come on! :o...However, went to Lincoln, went to state, won it all twice and NO ONE ELSE did it after he left...Gamble came out of retirement and went to Austin in 99....ANOTHER great coach...If it were Sutherland, you would be on here talking about what a MAGNIFICENT achievement it was....typical... ::)

[stevenash]

Sutherland is a great coach, but I am smart enough to understand he is NOT the Messiah.  I also understand that he  has no exclusive or secret knowledge that isnt available or obtainable in the overall coaching market. 

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371134" timestamp="1360270138"]
Sutherland is a great coach, but I am smart enough to understand he is NOT the Messiah.  I also understand that he  has no exclusive or secret knowledge that isnt available or obtainable in the overall coaching market. 
[/quote]
I agree with your take on Sutherland...I never said ANY of the above about either of these coaches as far as being the "Messiah" as you call it...But you giving excuses for Boutte's success are not going to fly with me because I KNOW better than that.

[Bigdog]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371130" timestamp="1360269890"]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371121#msg1371121 date=1360269362]
I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor.
[/quote]
OK, but would you agree that Westbrook, Silsbee, and Central for example ALL had talented enough teams to win or even GO to state, but did not make it? It takes MORE than talent alone to win it all...Coaching plays a HUGE factor in winning big. Particularly at the 4A and 5A level...These guys REFUSE to acknowledge what was done by him was special over the years, by making the excuse of built in talent as if NO WORK was involved..THAT is what burns my hide about it! >:(

[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371122#msg1371122 date=1360269496]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you?
[/quote]
He was at Kountze from 87-89...He did well there, just had not won state yet in HIS FIRST TWO YEARS OF COACHING, period...Right out of college, mind you...Come on! :o...However, went to Lincoln, went to state, won it all twice and NO ONE ELSE did it after he left...Gamble came out of retirement and went to Austin in 99....ANOTHER great coach...If it were Sutherland, you would be on here talking about what a MAGNIFICENT achievement it was....typical... ::)
[/quote]

I am not questioning that coaching has a lot to do with it, in fact that is the my point.  I am also not saying that English is a better coach.  my point is that Boutte had more to work with from that start at Ozen, and wasn't exactly hurting at Lincoln either, as they had already one 4 or 5 Championships by the time he got there. ( I don't know when he started at Lincoln)  ,  Also quit trying to make this a racial issue.

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371138" timestamp="1360270339"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371134#msg1371134 date=1360270138]
Sutherland is a great coach, but I am smart enough to understand he is NOT the Messiah.  I also understand that he  has no exclusive or secret knowledge that isnt available or obtainable in the overall coaching market. 
[/quote]
I agree with your take on Sutherland...I never said ANY of the above about either of these coaches as far as being the "Messiah" as you call it...But you giving excuses for Boutte's success are not going to fly with me because I KNOW better than that.
[/quote]

They are NOT excuses.  They are examples of what Mr. Boutte had to work with.  I want you to convince me that he would have achieved the same results if he had been at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen. ( I assume he would have done well but not nearly as well in win loss terms as he would at Lincoln and Ozen.) My original contention was that there are many great coaches who never win a title and I stand by that.  I will also suggest to you that Brad Stevens  has done a better coaching job in recent years than Tubby Smith has.

[BIG SHOW]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371138" timestamp="1360270339"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371134#msg1371134 date=1360270138]
Sutherland is a great coach, but I am smart enough to understand he is NOT the Messiah.  I also understand that he  has no exclusive or secret knowledge that isnt available or obtainable in the overall coaching market. 
[/quote]
I agree with you take on Sutherland...I never said ANY of the above about either of these coaches as far as being the "Messiah" as you call it...But you giving excuses for Boutte's success are not going to fly with me because I KNOW better than that.
[/quote]
It takes a good coach to do what he did but it also was a bit lucky to have the talent he has had through his career.  Take Phill Jackson for example: Good coach and got a bit lucky to coach the teams he had in his career.  I would think the same argument could be made about him amongst other good coaches in the NBA.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="bigdog" post="1371144" timestamp="1360270592"]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371130#msg1371130 date=1360269890]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371121#msg1371121 date=1360269362]
I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor.
[/quote]
OK, but would you agree that Westbrook, Silsbee, and Central for example ALL had talented enough teams to win or even GO to state, but did not make it? It takes MORE than talent alone to win it all...Coaching plays a HUGE factor in winning big. Particularly at the 4A and 5A level...These guys REFUSE to acknowledge what was done by him was special over the years, by making the excuse of built in talent as if NO WORK was involved..THAT is what burns my hide about it! >:(

[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371122#msg1371122 date=1360269496]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you?
[/quote]
He was at Kountze from 87-89...He did well there, just had not won state yet in HIS FIRST TWO YEARS OF COACHING, period...Right out of college, mind you...Come on! :o...However, went to Lincoln, went to state, won it all twice and NO ONE ELSE did it after he left...Gamble came out of retirement and went to Austin in 99....ANOTHER great coach...If it were Sutherland, you would be on here talking about what a MAGNIFICENT achievement it was....typical... ::)
[/quote]

I am not questioning that coaching has a lot to do with it, in fact that is the my point.  I am also not saying that English is a better coach.  my point is that Boutte had more to work with from that start at Ozen, and wasn't exactly hurting at Lincoln either, as they had already one 4 or 5 Championships by the time he got there. ( I don't know when he started at Lincoln)  ,  Also quit trying to make this a racial issue.
[/quote]
A racial issue? HOW? :o...Are you saying that starting a BRAND NEW high school is "working with" something? He had what Beaumont ALWAYS had!! and they had not won a title since Hebert in 1982.

[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371146#msg1371146 date=1360270782]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371138#msg1371138 date=1360270339]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371134#msg1371134 date=1360270138]
Sutherland is a great coach, but I am smart enough to understand he is NOT the Messiah.  I also understand that he  has no exclusive or secret knowledge that isnt available or obtainable in the overall coaching market. 
[/quote]
I agree with your take on Sutherland...I never said ANY of the above about either of these coaches as far as being the "Messiah" as you call it...But you giving excuses for Boutte's success are not going to fly with me because I KNOW better than that.
[/quote]

They are NOT excuses.  They are examples of what Mr. Boutte had to work with.  I want you to convince me that he would have achieved the same results if he had been at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen. ( I assume he would have done well but not nearly as well in win loss terms as he would at Lincoln and Ozen.) My original contention was that there are many great coaches who never win a title and I stand by that.  I will also suggest to you that Brad Stevens  has done a better coaching job in recent years than Tubby Smith has.
[/quote]
Why? I think Brad Stevens is a HELL of a coach...But you won't ever give someone else that same credit...Why is that? Tubby Smith is a HELL of a coach, WITH a National Championship... ;)

[stevenash]

ANd Tubby Smith happens to be one of my favorite coaches but I am saying that, in spite of his title, he has not done a better job of coaching than Stevens has.  The OBVIOUS inference (as previously suggested in several other threads) is that there are many great coaches who will never win a title.

[Dick Vitale]

[quote name="Stevenash" post="1371159" timestamp="1360272719"]
ANd Tubby Smith happens to be one of my favorite coaches but I am saying that, in spite of his title, he has not done a better job of coaching than Stevens has.  The OBVIOUS inference (as previously suggested in several other threads) is that there are many great coaches who will never win a title.
[/quote]
So let me get this right, are you saying that Brad Stevens is BETTER, although he has never won a title?

[stevenash]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371161" timestamp="1360272872"]
[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371159#msg1371159 date=1360272719]
ANd Tubby Smith happens to be one of my favorite coaches but I am saying that, in spite of his title, he has not done a better job of coaching than Stevens has.  The OBVIOUS inference (as previously suggested in several other threads) is that there are many great coaches who will never win a title.
[/quote]
So let me get this right, are you saying that Brad Stevens is BETTER, although he has never won a title?
[/quote]

I am offering my opinion ( and I am smart enough to know it is ONLY my opinion and NOT GOSPEL) that what Mr. Stevens has done in recent years is a greater accomplishment than what Tubby has done in recent years and the fact that Stevens does not have a national title has no bearing on the comparison.

[Honest Abe]

[quote name="Dick Vitale" post="1371130" timestamp="1360269890"]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371121#msg1371121 date=1360269362]
I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor.
[/quote]
OK, but would you agree that Westbrook, Silsbee, and Central for example ALL had talented enough teams to win or even GO to state, but did not make it? It takes MORE than talent alone to win it all...Coaching plays a HUGE factor in winning big. Particularly at the 4A and 5A level...These guys REFUSE to acknowledge what was done by him was special over the years, by making the excuse of built in talent as if NO WORK was involved..THAT is what burns my hide about it! >:(

[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371122#msg1371122 date=1360269496]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
[/quote]
Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
[/quote]

Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you?
[/quote]
He was at Kountze from 87-89...He did well there, just had not won state yet in HIS FIRST TWO YEARS OF COACHING, period...Right out of college, mind you...Come on! :o...However, went to Lincoln, went to state, won it all twice and NO ONE ELSE did it after he left...Gamble came out of retirement and went to Austin in 99....ANOTHER great coach...If it were Sutherland, you would be on here talking about what a MAGNIFICENT achievement it was....typical... ::)
[/quote][quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371144#msg1371144 date=1360270592]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371130#msg1371130 date=1360269890]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371121#msg1371121 date=1360269362]
I don't disagree, but talent wise he had more to work with.  I think that is the point that others are trying to make.  It wasn't exactly a blank slate like Ned and Vidor.
[/quote]
OK, but would you agree that Westbrook, Silsbee, and Central for example ALL had talented enough teams to win or even GO to state, but did not make it? It takes MORE than talent alone to win it all...Coaching plays a HUGE factor in winning big. Particularly at the 4A and 5A level...These guys REFUSE to acknowledge what was done by him was special over the years, by making the excuse of built in talent as if NO WORK was involved..THAT is what burns my hide about it! >:(

[quote author=Stevenash link=topic=108974.msg1371122#msg1371122 date=1360269496]
[quote author=Dick Vitale link=topic=108974.msg1371115#msg1371115 date=1360268833]
[quote author=bigdog link=topic=108974.msg1371114#msg1371114 date=1360268672]
Your barking up the wrong tree DV. No one is saying Boutte can't coach.  He has proven himself.
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Proven himself more than once at at multiple schools, and with different groups of kids, and with different levels of talent....And saying that he couldn't do what English did at Vidor is utterly ridiculous...The guy's resume speaks for itself.
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Nobody is questioning Mr. Bouttes ability to coach.  What is being questioned is your suggestion/inference that he is the Messiah and that nobody can compare to him.  You are simply wrong about that.  He would not have had the same degree of success( in terms of titles- which seems to be your only barometer) if he had taken jobs at Dayton and Liberty instead of Lincoln and Ozen.  Also, why is his stint at Kountze never discussed by you?
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He was at Kountze from 87-89...He did well there, just had not won state yet in HIS FIRST TWO YEARS OF COACHING, period...Right out of college, mind you...Come on! :o...However, went to Lincoln, went to state, won it all twice and NO ONE ELSE did it after he left...Gamble came out of retirement and went to Austin in 99....ANOTHER great coach...If it were Sutherland, you would be on here talking about what a MAGNIFICENT achievement it was....typical... ::)
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I am not questioning that coaching has a lot to do with it, in fact that is the my point.  I am also not saying that English is a better coach.  my point is that Boutte had more to work with from that start at Ozen, and wasn't exactly hurting at Lincoln either, as they had already one 4 or 5 Championships by the time he got there. ( I don't know when he started at Lincoln)  ,  Also quit trying to make this a racial issue.
[/quote]Thank You, Thank you, and Thank You!